RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die?

RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (Full Version)

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SovereignIsHe -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/19/2008 5:45:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: greatdivide46 Yes, I agree. But don't you agree that whatever the whole human race got (or would have gotten) from Adam has been completely canceled out for the whole human race by the gracious atoning work of Jesus Christ? Christ paid the debt, yet we are still fallen creatures.... Completely prior to salvation and somewhat after... quote: Or is there still something that we have to do to make that gracious atoning work applicable to us? There is nothing anyone can do... Even a baby... quote: It just seems to me that Christ's "one act of righteousness" (Romans 5:18) has completely intercepted, nullified, negated, canceled, and conteracted whatever was destined to be ours because of Adam. What Christ did at the cross hasn't changed human nature... You seem to be saying that our sinful nature passed down from Adam is gone.... How so?

zoebob -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/19/2008 5:59:41 PM)
We do not change our own hearts towards GOd: He changes our hearts. WHen He changes them is up to Him. He can change the heart in thw womb or as an infant or as a 95 yr old.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/19/2008 6:14:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: zoebob We do not change our own hearts towards GOd: He changes our hearts. WHen He changes them is up to Him. He can change the heart in thw womb or as an infant or as a 95 yr old. Exactly!!! John

john_mark -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/19/2008 6:41:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: john_mark quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe The above makes clear distinctions, right? The verses separate the children from a specific SIN of the parents, not sin itself... Now... I ask you, how does the above grant any relief to anyone in the Flood and or Jericho? John we see that God can seperate the children from specific sin, I said that... quote: as a son of adam (your father), do you die for adam's sin or do you die for your sins? We are condemned by Adam's and responible for our own... John so when a baby dies do they die for thier own sin or the sins of the fathers?

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/19/2008 6:43:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: john_mark quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: john_mark quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe The above makes clear distinctions, right? The verses separate the children from a specific SIN of the parents, not sin itself... Now... I ask you, how does the above grant any relief to anyone in the Flood and or Jericho? John we see that God can seperate the children from specific sin, I said that... quote: as a son of adam (your father), do you die for adam's sin or do you die for your sins? We are condemned by Adam's and responible for our own... John so when a baby dies do they die for thier own sin or the sins of the fathers? Keeping with the flow... What is the wage of sin? John

TheoJunkie -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/19/2008 10:41:05 PM)
Debbie, I do see it differently. The reason is complex and touches on many things-- many scriptures, many aspects of God. I don't have the time or inclination to go into it now (sorry). I hope others on this thread will make it all clear.

dboutwell -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/19/2008 11:46:49 PM)
that is quite alright, John. I understand. We can become quite weary trying to understand and explain things that are seeminly so important. I surely didn't see things like this 7 years ago and I probably won't see them the same 7 years form now. Thanks anyway and be blessed :) Debbie

dboutwell -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/20/2008 12:05:34 AM)
quote: “Christ said... One must be born again and spoke of no exceptions... If children are truly without sin there is no need for them to be born again... “ You notice when Jesus was talking to Nicodemus about being born again, He was doing so as a response to Nicodemus’ questions. Notice also that Jesus did not say “except a man be born again he cannot go to heaven when he dies.” But, that’s pretty much how we see it. Nicodemus was talking about how Jesus could not do the things He did unless God was with Him. Nicodemus was inquiring…little babies do not. Jesus knowing his heart replied according to what he needed. In order to know the things he was inquiring about or, to be able to see(comprehend) the kingdom of God, he was going to have to “see” another way entirely. He would have to be born again so to speak. (this would have been the perfect time for Jesus to have him pray the sinners prayer…huh?) quote: “Tiny children and babies do not have choices. Where does it say that? In Scripture? “ I think that is one of those cases where even though we don’t have chapter and verse for it we know it is so. For example, the Bible doesn’t tell us we will have interstate highways but we all know we do. quote: "In Christ, all are made alive", means just that. All those "in Christ" are made alive. It does not mean the all are in Christ. “ I believe this is speaking of physical death and life here because it is the judgment of Adam that is being discussed. That did involve every man and it seems to be orchestrated by God, not just some “slip up” His new creation made. Did any of us have to ask to be cursed with the death sentence that we were given? NO, Do we have to ask for the life the 2nd Adam gives us? NO. That judgment was “undone” by the 2nd Adam, Christ, which means all are going to be raised from the dead. Why? It’s called grace…God gave us unmerited favor because He LOVED US. We were made not only by God but we were made FOR God. Granted this does not mean all are “in Christ” before they leave this earth. Paul said that if any man does not have the spirit of Christ he is none of His. Yet we have to look at the other scriptures that say all have to repent, all are going to be drawn to Christ, every knee will bow every tongue will confess. This leads us to believe at some time all are going to know the Lord, just like He said they would. quote: “So, does that mean that the image of Adam is supreme over the Spirit of God until a person is able to choose the Spirit of God for themselves? “ My answer to that would be no. Creation was subjected to vanity/futility not willingly. In other words, Adam was following the script. The darkness we find ourselves in because of Adam’s fall points us to the fact that we need the light of the world. quote: “It means there is a choice to be made, for sure. The question is, is that choice limited to only life on this side of physical death? “ I don’t see how it can be. Hebrews 9:27 just says there is judgment after death….that all. It doesn’t say “and there will never, ever, ever, be another opportunity to call on the Lord, ever.” I believe it is God’s judgment that will bring some to repentance and cause them to call on the Lord. quote: “It's clear the God numbers our days and if ALL babies go to heaven I claim foul if we are using the one must profess Christ in order to be saved concept... How can He be just and a NOT a respecter of persons if the above is true? I know if the above were true I wouldn't care to live for the millisecond on this earth compared to eternity... And I consider my four children... As a loving parent wanting the best for them wouldn't I rather have God take them for sure into eternity as opposed to have them live to some(never mentioned) age of accountability? “ I almost completely agree with this. I do believe eventually all will profess Christ because of what Isaiah and Paul said. As in the case of little babies…they may not do it in this life, but if God commands all men to come to repentance(change of thinking) and if Jesus said He would draw all men to Himself if He was crucified, then somehow, someone is going to have to confess on the other side….right? I don’t see how anyone in their right mind who believes in eternal Hell, either way Armenian or Calvinistic, can with a good conscience, bring a human being into this world knowing that he #1. May not accept Christ as his savior, or, #2. He may not be one of the elect. It just baffles me that I didn’t consider my children’s eternal destiny before I created them…. If Hell is real, I owe them a great apology and I will never, ever, forgive myself for it. I don't remember who posted concerning the sins in Ezekiel but I see that as being different ahan the sin of Adam that we all got the effects of. I think Ezekiel was talking about John Jr. not being held responsible for his daddy, John stealing the neighbor's chickens... civil..judicial matters...I think. John said ... But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. Seems like a contradiction but to me it is speaking of the sin nature we still have even though we have been cleansed from all of our sin. Paul said...with my flesh I serve the law of sin and with my mind the law of Christ... It seems to be the plan to use a flawed generation of people for this time period. Maybe because flawed people can reach flawed people... Debbie

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/20/2008 12:36:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dboutwell You notice when Jesus was talking to Nicodemus about being born again, He was doing so as a response to Nicodemus’ questions. Notice also that Jesus did not say “except a man be born again he cannot go to heaven when he dies.” But, that’s pretty much how we see it. Nicodemus was talking about how Jesus could not do the things He did unless God was with Him. Nicodemus was inquiring…little babies do not. Jesus knowing his heart replied according to what he needed. In order to know the things he was inquiring about or, to be able to see(comprehend) the kingdom of God, he was going to have to “see” another way entirely. He would have to be born again so to speak. (this would have been the perfect time for Jesus to have him pray the sinners prayer…huh?) Jesus isn't the Oracle from the Matrix. :P He told Nicodemus the truth; one must be born again in order to enter in to the Kingdom... quote: quote: “It's clear the God numbers our days and if ALL babies go to heaven I claim foul if we are using the one must profess Christ in order to be saved concept... How can He be just and a NOT a respecter of persons if the above is true? I know if the above were true I wouldn't care to live for the millisecond on this earth compared to eternity... And I consider my four children... As a loving parent wanting the best for them wouldn't I rather have God take them for sure into eternity as opposed to have them live to some(never mentioned) age of accountability? “ I almost completely agree with this. I do believe eventually all will profess Christ because of what Isaiah and Paul said. As in the case of little babies…they may not do it in this life, but if God commands all men to come to repentance(change of thinking) and if Jesus said He would draw all men to Himself if He was crucified, then somehow, someone is going to have to confess on the other side….right? Universalism while very appealing isn’t biblical… The command to repent doesn't equate to everyone doing so... quote: I don’t see how anyone in their right mind who believes in eternal Hell, either way Armenian or Calvinistic, can with a good conscience, bring a human being into this world knowing that he #1. May not accept Christ as his savior, or, #2. He may not be one of the elect. It just baffles me that I didn’t consider my children’s eternal destiny before I created them…. If Hell is real, I owe them a great apology and I will never, ever, forgive myself for it. Debbie God is the only being that gives or takes life... You didn't create them, the Creator did and if you love your children you have nothing to ever apologize for... They, like all of us are in the hands of God and He's just... John

meerkat -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/20/2008 3:21:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: greatdivide46 quote: ORIGINAL: dboutwell What are the children/babies being judged for anyway...the sin that was passed down from Adam? If so, that judgment was death not eternity in Hell. Wouldn't God have said to Adam, "Thou shalt surely go to Hell forever and ever" instead of "Thou shalt surely die"??? I agree somewhat with dboutwell. I find it difficult to believe the babies are really born in sin. If that were actually true, wouldn't that mean the Adam's sin was more powerful that Christ's sacrifice. It seems to me that if "in Christ all are made alive" then infants are born in original grace not original sin. Otherwise the sacrifice of Christ is of no consequence. But, hey, as Bill O'Reilly is wont to say, "I could be wrong." [:)] First is the natural (Adam) then the Spiritual (Christ) Babies are born natural if they die when they are still babies they are still natural -- When do they get raised to spiritual life? 1st resurrection? - 2nd resurrection? 1 Cor 15:44-46 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.- 1 Cor 15:22-23 However I do think that judgement starts in this life for those in Christ while still alive, 1 peter 4:17 they are of the first resurrection 1 Cor 15:23 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. I agree with URForgiven when he says quote: I do know my God. And my God is Merciful, and Just and my God is Love. However He deals with these, the one thing I do know is that He deals with them perfectly.

meerkat -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/20/2008 3:36:47 AM)
URForgiven, quote: "In Christ, all are made alive", means just that. All those "in Christ" are made alive. It does not mean that all are in Christ. When you put the word those into that scripture you are actually changing what that says. These 2 are different "In Christ, all are made alive" "All those "in Christ" are made alive" 1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1Cr 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 1Cr 15:24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 1Cr 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

URForgiven -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/20/2008 8:23:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meerkat URForgiven, quote: "In Christ, all are made alive", means just that. All those "in Christ" are made alive. It does not mean that all are in Christ. When you put the word those into that scripture you are actually changing what that says. These 2 are different "In Christ, all are made alive" "All those "in Christ" are made alive" 1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1Cr 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 1Cr 15:24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 1Cr 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. I am pretty sure that "in Christ" means "in Christ". I am equally confident that not "all" are "in Christ".

vixir -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/20/2008 11:02:13 AM)
I'm sure this is going to upset some of you... but I have to say it. Some of you guys are saying that the decision of those who go to Heaven, is based on faith. And I full heartedly believe that. However, a child who doesn't or even cannot understand the concept of God and Heaven, couldn't have faith. If you read the bible to your newborn and took (s)he to church every Sunday, (s)he wouldn't understand a word that is being spoken to her. There isn't a single baby who would/does understand scripture and God. Therefore, if what some of you guys are saying is true, then all babies would be damned to hell. So I truly believe that a baby who didn't have a chance to live and understand God, would go to Heaven. God is merciful, so why would He damn a soul that clearly wasn't old enough to have Salvation?! Just because it isn't spoken in Scripture, doesn't mean it isn't true.

john_mark -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/20/2008 11:06:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe Keeping with the flow... What is the wage of sin? John death, but are we speaking of physical death or spiritual death? we all die physically for the sin of adam gen 3 19 By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return." do we die spiritually for our own sins or the sins of adam? paul wrote in romans 7 7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET ." 8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; paul was raised a hebrew of hebrews, a pharisee of pharisees, when would paul not have known the Law, and note verse 9, once i was alive, then i died. paul died for his own sin once he had understanding of the Law.

abraxas -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/20/2008 11:52:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe God is the only being that gives or takes life... You didn't create them, the Creator did and if you love your children you have nothing to ever apologize for... In the very metaphysical sense of "life" this may be true, but in the way dboutwell is speaking it is observable fact that humans create life. They have sex, and occasionally it leads to a baby.

abraxas -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/20/2008 11:56:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vixir If you read the bible to your newborn and took (s)he to church every Sunday, (s)he wouldn't understand a word that is being spoken to her. There isn't a single baby who would/does understand scripture and God. It is odd to see arguments put forth about babies accepting/rejecting Jesus. There must be some doctrinal glitch created by the idea that "all babies automatically go to Heaven".

URForgiven -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/20/2008 12:09:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: john_mark death, but are we speaking of physical death or spiritual death? we all die physically for the sin of adam Adam died spiritually, and we are born in the image of Adam. Physical death is a result of the mercy of God, not Adams sin.

eschatologist -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/20/2008 1:00:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ignited-Faith Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (What do you believe the Bible teaches on this?) Thanks! Yes! Absolutely! There's nothing more to say, because there are no particular scriptures that deal with this subject. We just have to go by the fact that God is love. He is a merciful kind compassionate God and therefore would never send a baby to hell who has never reached the age of accountability. A couple of verses you can apply to this are: "Suffer the little children to come unto me and forbid them not; for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, whosoever shall not recieve the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein." (Mark 10:14-15) "Except ye be converted and become as little chidren, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven." "Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, that in heaven their angels (spirits) do always behold the face of my Father which is in Heaven." (Mathew 18:3-4 and 10) (Little children see the face of God.) All of Heaven is made up of little children and children at heart. Because children are innocent and trusting of their parents love and care for them. That's the way the Lord wants us to be of His Love and care for us. Just like a little baby recieves and sucks the milk from his mommy's breast, the Lord just wants us to believe in and recieve His love and care for us, without doubting and questioning, by recieving Jesus and His forgiveness for our sins. "Who His own self bare our sins in His own body on the tree" (IPeter 2:24) So, yes, little babies do go straight to heaven when they die, because all of heaven is populated by such little children and children at heart. Those are the only kind of people who go to heaven. "As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word that ye may grow thereby." (IPeter 2:2)

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/20/2008 3:16:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vixir I'm sure this is going to upset some of you... but I have to say it. Some of you guys are saying that the decision of those who go to Heaven, is based on faith. And I full heartedly believe that. However, a child who doesn't or even cannot understand the concept of God and Heaven, couldn't have faith. If you read the bible to your newborn and took (s)he to church every Sunday, (s)he wouldn't understand a word that is being spoken to her. There isn't a single baby who would/does understand scripture and God. Therefore, if what some of you guys are saying is true, then all babies would be damned to hell. So I truly believe that a baby who didn't have a chance to live and understand God, would go to Heaven. God is merciful, so why would He damn a soul that clearly wasn't old enough to have Salvation?! Just because it isn't spoken in Scripture, doesn't mean it isn't true. Fine... I claim foul and want baby salvation... If not granted God is not just... John

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/20/2008 3:17:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: john_mark quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe Keeping with the flow... What is the wage of sin? John death, but are we speaking of physical death or spiritual death? we all die physically for the sin of adam gen 3 19 By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return." do we die spiritually for our own sins or the sins of adam? paul wrote in romans 7 7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET ." 8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; paul was raised a hebrew of hebrews, a pharisee of pharisees, when would paul not have known the Law, and note verse 9, once i was alive, then i died. paul died for his own sin once he had understanding of the Law. Paul was born dead... John

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/20/2008 3:20:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: abraxas quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe God is the only being that gives or takes life... You didn't create them, the Creator did and if you love your children you have nothing to ever apologize for... In the very metaphysical sense of "life" this may be true, but in the way dboutwell is speaking it is observable fact that humans create life. They have sex, and occasionally it leads to a baby. All the sex in the world will not bring about what God didn't ordain before the foundation of the world... John

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/20/2008 3:27:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: eschatologist Yes! Absolutely! There's nothing more to say, because there are no particular scriptures that deal with this subject. We just have to go by the fact that God is love. He is a merciful kind compassionate God and therefore would never send a baby to hell who has never reached the age of accountability. And God says that age is? My guess is 43.... Since I am 43 I think it's a good place to draw the line... quote: A couple of verses you can apply to this are: "Suffer the little children to come unto me and forbid them not; for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, whosoever shall not recieve the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein." (Mark 10:14-15) "Except ye be converted and become as little chidren, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven." "Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, that in heaven their angels (spirits) do always behold the face of my Father which is in Heaven." (Mathew 18:3-4 and 10) (Little children see the face of God.) Children were used as an anaolgy... You are pushing the text in the verse to outer limits... quote: All of Heaven is made up of little children and children at heart. Because children are innocent and trusting of their parents love and care for them. That's the way the Lord wants us to be of His Love and care for us. Just like a little baby recieves and sucks the milk from his mommy's breast, the Lord just wants us to believe in and recieve His love and care for us, without doubting and questioning, by recieving Jesus and His forgiveness for our sins. "Who His own self bare our sins in His own body on the tree" (IPeter 2:24) So, yes, little babies do go straight to heaven when they die, because all of heaven is populated by such little children and children at heart. Those are the only kind of people who go to heaven. "As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word that ye may grow thereby." (IPeter 2:2) All newborns? Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. John

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/20/2008 3:36:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: abraxas quote: ORIGINAL: vixir If you read the bible to your newborn and took (s)he to church every Sunday, (s)he wouldn't understand a word that is being spoken to her. There isn't a single baby who would/does understand scripture and God. It is odd to see arguments put forth about babies accepting/rejecting Jesus. There must be some doctrinal glitch created by the idea that "all babies automatically go to Heaven". Of course there is... Years ago... Like maybe eight or so one of the most ardent supporters of free will lost his mind on a thread regarding babies going to heaven... He was willing to toss everything he ever posted about how man must choose God in order to be saved out the window to defend the notion that all babies are granted salvation. The general plan of salvation that is common with those who believe man must choose in order to be saved runs over the idea that babies are saved automatically like a fully loaded 18 wheelers with no brakes on a iced over road going downhill… It's very interesting that once you place a baby into the picture predestination is just fine and dandy and God is just and loving in doing so, well up to a certain(never) mentioned age... John

greatdivide46 -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/20/2008 3:45:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe All newborns? Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. If Hebrew poetry is consistent and if the wicked really are estranged from the womb, then they are also born with the ability to speak immediately, and not only that, but to speak lies. [:)]

DreadPirateRandy -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/20/2008 3:48:14 PM)
No one has nor will ever convince me of the assumption that babies are immediate products of hell after failed life. Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." Jesus basis the righteousness of heaven on little children. If they are so sinful and hell born, wouldn't that devalue the standards of heaven and make it appear unholy?

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