My girls fight all the TIME! (Full Version)

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unsolodios -> My girls fight all the TIME! (4/17/2008 1:58:09 AM)

I have two daughters, one is 3 the other one is 2. They are only 11 month apart, here is the problem, the 3 year old fights all the time with the 2 year old. There is constant screaming and yelling between the two of them.
I sat down with my husband to talk about the 3 year olds behavior, we both agree that she needs to get more sleep and we need to spend more time with her. So I started making her take a nap every day, before she sleeps I rub her back to let her know that I'm there with her, we started playing with her and reading with her but still nothing has change, she is still fighting.
I pray for wisdom to know what she needs from me. ANY advice from anyone would help.



3cappuccinosmom -> RE: My girls fight all the TIME! (4/17/2008 7:32:34 AM)

My two oldest are 5 and 3 and this has been an issue for us.

The only thing I can suggest is that you step in and stop them immediately, remove whatever they're fighting over, and have them sit quietly for a few minutes. This has reduced the fights tremendously, though not completely.

You can also train your 3 yo to come directly to you if she has a problem with her sister, and tell you (without whining) what happened and what's the problem.



locomom -> RE: My girls fight all the TIME! (4/17/2008 8:46:49 AM)

Does your 3 yo have a way to get away from her sister, meaning time to do what she wants without interference? Are they always together? Younger siblings can drive older ones to distraction. I certainly did it to my brothers. And when we visited my cousins, the two girls that were 4 and 6 years younger spent the whole time following me.

Other than that , I think 3cappucinosmom's advice is good. Your girls are both still not the best at sharing.

Also, can you give some examples of what they are fighting about?



manda59 -> RE: My girls fight all the TIME! (4/17/2008 11:30:53 AM)

Could I just ask - are you a stay-at-home mum?

Also, I noticed in another thread that you are a leader at church - I was wondering what sort of time commitment that involves.



buckifn -> RE: My girls fight all the TIME! (4/17/2008 11:40:56 AM)

Do you and your husband yell at them, and/or at each other when conflicts arise? They are seeing the yelling and screaming from somewhere.....children usually model what they see. I would say make sure they see the adults around them handling conflict calmly as a starting point...and also make sure there are immediate consequences immed. when the yelling and screaming takes place. For ex remove the one yelling and screaming from the activity, give them a set amt of time to get themselves together if they want the privilege of continuing what they were doing, and if they can't they then lose the power to make a choice and the adult assigns them something to do elsewhere. At that young of an age it could be something as simple as going inside instead of being allowed to play outside...or going to have story time instead of playing with the ball, in the pool, or whatever

The idea is to connect the unwanted behavior with consequences on a level they can understand.



Kat_D -> RE: My girls fight all the TIME! (4/17/2008 12:05:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: unsolodios

I have two daughters, one is 3 the other one is 2. They are only 11 month apart, here is the problem, the 3 year old fights all the time with the 2 year old. There is constant screaming and yelling between the two of them.
I sat down with my husband to talk about the 3 year olds behavior, we both agree that she needs to get more sleep and we need to spend more time with her. So I started making her take a nap every day, before she sleeps I rub her back to let her know that I'm there with her, we started playing with her and reading with her but still nothing has change, she is still fighting.
I pray for wisdom to know what she needs from me. ANY advice from anyone would help.



One thing really struck me in your post...Why are you and your husband only discussing the 3 year-olds behavior? They both are guilty of the same behavior and being only 11 months apart, I don't think you can consider the 3 year-old the sibling who should know better or be more mature that her sister. With that in mind, you can't hold her entirely responsible for what is going on nor can you completely negate the 2 year-olds actions because she's younger. If you do this, imo, you will just cause more resentment between the two of them.

I agree with the way 3capps handles it. I might also add that you may want to consider stopping and praying with the two of them each time they fight...directing their prayers to the Lord that He would "Help me to love my sister, share my toys with her, and not fight with her so much."



funny_girl -> RE: My girls fight all the TIME! (4/17/2008 12:12:48 PM)

They need boundaries and options. When my kids were that age I'd set up play stations when they weren't playing well. They had only a certain amount of time for that station and then they had to move on. It's your responsibility to control your children. You have to lay down the rules in the house and enforce them. A lazy parent will let their kids run the house. You don't want to do that! Organize your home and set a schedule for your girls that works for the whole family. It's fun!



peculiar_lady2 -> RE: My girls fight all the TIME! (4/17/2008 6:48:53 PM)

in our house, and esp with kids that age, the offending item gets put in time out if it can't be shared. Eventually they learn that they must share. We constantly tell them also that we can't appropriately deal with their brother/sister if we are having to deal with them too...so we have over time instilled in them that we will gladly deal with the issue if they will present it to US to deal with instead of taking matters into their own hands. It's not as easily grasped by a 3yo as it would be by an older child, but if you keep repeating the same thing they eventually get it....anything younger then 3 might not get it at all....but eventually they will. Consistency is another key too...have strict guidelines of what punishment will happen with what kind of offense...and let the kids know that you mean it by enforcing those every single time...you and hubby on the same page too. It helps us to stay calm in situations by having things like this written out...then we can refer back to that if/when we are getting overly emotional ourselves about something.



pbaribeault -> RE: My girls fight all the TIME! (4/17/2008 7:46:24 PM)

An insight I have had into managing toddler & preschooler behavior is that the behaviour needs an exact name, and a clear definition if the child is going to understand what they have to stop. It also helps to have one key-word command for when you need to step in.

In this case, the problem is fighting - but maybe that's not the best word, because it's only fighting when it gets out of hand - the behavior you want them to stop is the pre-fight behaviour. That behaviour might be 'unkind', 'self-first', 'rude', 'disrespectful', or just plain 'loud' -- pick a word or two (maybe one per girl) that describes their most troublesome pre-fight behaviour.

Sit with each one separately and say very calmly in an everyday way, "Honey, sometimes you are acting self-first with your sister. Self-first means when you do things like (insert exact behaviours here) and/or when you say things like (insert exact phrases she uses, mimicking her voice). Do you remember some times like that? (Encourage her to remember, take her places it has happened and do a little drama of how it was, etc.) We don't want you to be self-first any more. We want you to grow up nicely and to be friendly with your sister. (So your key words are now "self-first" and "friendly", and your command is "be friendly") Friendly is when you do things like (whatever) and say things like (whatever). Everybody is happier when you are friendly, and I know that you will be very good at learning to be friendly. Are you ready to learn to be friendly?"

Listen to her response attentively and make sure she feels like she has been heard. If she agrees, great, if not, simply says that you are going to teach her to be friendly anyways, because it is important for the whole family. Conclude with lots of affirmation that you know she will do a good job, and that acting self-first is no fun, and that you can't wait until she is cured of acting self-first.

Repeat the same with the other girl, but consider giving them different key words that are accurate to their own behaviour, or just different so that they feel that they alone are responsible to change in their own way.

After this process it becomes fair to give consequences - because both the offense and the desired behaviour are well known. The others are right that the consequences should be immediate, and there are a lot of different consequences to choose from. Some consequences may be situational, others might be something unpleasant that can be applied any time.

I would even say that in this situation the consequences are are more-than-immediate because you are disciplining the pre-fight behavior, not just when they get to the point of fighting.

When a toy is grabbed step right in and say, "You just grabbed that toy. Toy grabbing is (insert key word). You must learn to (insert key word). You will give it back now." (Followed by, "You will give it back in '5' or I will (insert consequence) 5-4-3-2-1." and do the consequence.) After they are more in tune with the system, you should be able to give the command, "be friendly" and the child will know that that means you saw them take the toy and that they need to give it back. You can also use "be friendly" as an instruction for how the child should remember to behave before they enter a situation.

If they get to the point of fighting, step in and say, "What you are doing is called fighting. Suzy, fighting is very self-first. It's not allowed. You must learn to be friendly. Jenny, fighting is very unkind. It is not allowed. You must learn to be kind." Then apply consequences to each for their behaviour.

Of course the other half is to identify every kind and friendly behaviour all day long every day, mention it and praise them. This is absolutely critical. Always hold the the idea clearly before them that you know they ARE friendly, and that you know they want to behave that way.

This means that you are not frustrated with bad children, you are bringing out good children. When you use your key word about the undesirable behaviour you are describing the actions not the child: what they are DOING is self-first, the child themself is IS NOT self-first, unkind or whatever. The child is your beloved child even when they misbehave.

It's not important that you use the key words or phrases I've typed of course, I've only done it that way for clarity - but it is important that you have your own phrases and key words that you use every time in exactly the same way each time. At that age kids are so literal. Going to the trouble of spelling things out for them and then sticking to an expectable process is really helpful to them as they strive to comply.



Kat_D -> RE: My girls fight all the TIME! (4/17/2008 8:00:44 PM)

Zowie!!![sm=eek.gif]

...and if your going to follow the advice in the above post, be sure to print it out because, if you're anything like me, there is no way you'll remember all that without referring to your copy!

*kids fighting*
.
.
.
"Hold on girls, I have to run and get my notes!"[sm=purplelaugh.gif]



pbaribeault -> RE: My girls fight all the TIME! (4/17/2008 8:45:32 PM)

Sorry [sm=icon_smile_blush.gif]

Of course I really did mean, "It's not important that you use the key words or phrases I've typed of course, I've only done it that way for clarity."

The point was to give examples of the kinds of short, clear and obvious statements that get through to the youngest children in discipline situations - not to provide a script.



Kat_D -> RE: My girls fight all the TIME! (4/17/2008 8:55:26 PM)

I know, Pharibeault, and it was good advice....I was just playin' with ya!!![:D]



peculiar_lady2 -> RE: My girls fight all the TIME! (4/17/2008 10:27:48 PM)

Pam...you mentioned counting....we personally don't do that, because we found that our kids were waiting for that ll important number to listen to us, and we felt that they were ignoring the command itself that we were telling them. So we stopped counting for things like listening...they will either do what we say in situations like this immediately or they will have consequences immediately because of their decision to ignore that command. The only time we count is when we are trying to get them to pick something up fast...and we make it more of a game....or when we are doing chore time, I set a timer and count down the minutes to that job being done. We race against time. However, that's a totally different kind of thing....if they are doing that kind of a game and still decide to not listen then we don't wait til the time is up to punish...they get punished immediately upon them deciding to ignore our command to do whatever it is.

anyway...no one else has to do that, but I just wanted to say what we have found works best for our kids



unsolodios -> RE: My girls fight all the TIME! (4/18/2008 12:52:26 AM)

hey how did you know? yes I am a stay at home mom. It seems like ever since I stoped working they been fighting more. But I also know that when I was working I felt really guilty for having to leave them at daycare so when I got off work NO matter what I ALWAYS spend time with them. Now since I'm with them all the time I they have all my time.
And yes I'm also a church leader, it does take up my time, when friends from church have always been really good about helping me out with the girls.



unsolodios -> RE: My girls fight all the TIME! (4/18/2008 12:54:47 AM)

My husband does yell at them, it's a bad habit that he has, that's how he was raised, even know his grandma still yells at him when she's talking to him, we have also spoken about that and he tries to stop himself, but he has a really hard time.



unsolodios -> RE: My girls fight all the TIME! (4/18/2008 1:20:43 AM)

You are so right, I agree it's not the 3 year old's fault all the time. I know that's how I came across, the reason i said that is because the 3 year old is usually the one that starts the fights.



manda59 -> RE: My girls fight all the TIME! (4/18/2008 7:41:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: unsolodios
hey how did you know? yes I am a stay at home mom. It seems like ever since I stoped working they been fighting more.


How long is it since you stopped working - and for how long were they in daycare?

quote:


And yes I'm also a church leader, it does take up my time, when friends from church have always been really good about helping me out with the girls.


How many times a week would you say that others help you out with the girls?

Could I also ask you where you are and what you're doing when these fights break out? I'm thinking that (if you're not doing so already) it might help for you to be involved in their play, helping them learn how to "play nicely" together. Being directly involved, or close by, could also enable you to predict trouble spots before they happen, and take action to prevent them happening (eg by distraction, getting them to help you with something, etc)



peculiar_lady2 -> RE: My girls fight all the TIME! (4/18/2008 8:44:21 AM)

quote:

hey how did you know? yes I am a stay at home mom.

since you are new, I didn't know if you knew this....but over in the Women's folder we have a thread for SAHM's to chat about the daily life we live and how best to get through those tough times of being at home. Also we have another thread for discussing the daily life of babies (well, babies being basically under the age of pre-school...which your two girls fit into right now still). Both are chat style threads (meaning you don't need to read the whole thing to post, just post at the end saying who you are if you are interested in participating in the conversation). Anyway...I just wanted to extend that invitation to you to join us there.....
HERE IS A LINK to the SAHM's Support/Encouragement thread.
HERE IS A LINK to the Baby Chat thread.

quote:

My husband does yell at them, it's a bad habit that he has, that's how he was raised, even know his grandma still yells at him when she's talking to him, we have also spoken about that and he tries to stop himself, but he has a really hard time.

this is the kind of thing that can be more easily avoided if you know the triggers that cause him to yell. If this is an area he is willing to get your help on, then I would suggest you two sit down and make out a chart of punishments for certain infractions. When you have something written out right in front of you it is much MUCH easier to keep your cool about how things get punished. Also, if he is willing to, come up with a key word that you can say to him that lets him know that maybe he is going a bit over the top and needs to back down or let you handle this one. Again....IF he is willing....this all depends on what he is personally willing to try to put a stop to. More then anything though, talking about your expectations ahead of time and coming up with punishments that both of you are willing to enforce (and the way they will be enforced) ahead of time takes the emotion out of the moment and you are better able to handle the moment itself or the infraction itself, instead of the emotions that it is bringing up in you right then when it happens. Is this an area he is currently willing to talk about with you? If not then take it to God for that right time to open up and for his heart to be in the right place...cause it is very sad when any child has to grow up in that kind of environment...it is also very sad when parents lean on their growing up years and have that to contend with.....but there is hope, it doesn't have to be like that if he (and you) chooses to make a change



Kat_D -> RE: My girls fight all the TIME! (4/18/2008 9:48:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: unsolodios

My husband does yell at them, it's a bad habit that he has, that's how he was raised, even know his grandma still yells at him when she's talking to him, we have also spoken about that and he tries to stop himself, but he has a really hard time.


I just read another post of yours that said your husband yells at you and calls you names. Things have been so bad that at one point you were going to leave him. As someone else said in this thread, your kids are just emulating what they see their parents doing. Until you and your husband straighten out your own relationship, it will be very difficult to expect anything to change with your girls. I am sure part of their fighting is also due to the anxiety and stress they are experiencing over this.

You also mentioned in that post that you felt God had given you a ministry and that your husband is not on the same page in regards to that. You said in another post that he was not going to church or serving God. This may be the real source of all the friction in your home. The primary and most important ministry God has given you is your family. My encouragement to you is that you focus on that ministry and put all other outside ministry on the back burner until your own house is in order.

I pray God blesses you as you pray and seek His will in these matters.



manda59 -> RE: My girls fight all the TIME! (4/18/2008 10:00:15 AM)

unsolodios.

These are some of the other things you've posted. You've not actually said that your husband yells at you, but it sounds like it (especially with the use of bad language). You said that when you are alone he treats you well, but do the children ever hear/witness what he does?

quote:


My husband is very disrespectful to me infront of people. When we are alone he treats me good.
Last night my pastor and his wife came over and we where talking about things we wanted to do for GOD, we started joking and I rolled my eyes(rolling my eyes is a habit that I have), so my husband told the pastor how he wanted to punch my eyes out and all I would have was eye sockets.
This story doesn't even compare to others he has called me names, and cussed at me, made fun of me. And all this is infront of the brothers and sisters from church. My dad was the same way with me and my sisters...................

Last summer when he cussed at me and called me names I was gonna leave him but he begged for another chance.


Also you posted here:

quote:


My husband does not serve GOD right now so I go to church without him


Do the children come with you or stay at home with your dh?

Personally, I agree with KatD about putting your "outside" ministry aside, and concentrating on things at home. If your husband doesn't want to attend church, do you know why that is? Is it just because of where he is at, or could it be that there is something about that place that he doesn't like?



peculiar_lady2 -> RE: My girls fight all the TIME! (4/18/2008 10:05:13 AM)

thanks for those quote ladies.

to the OP...if you need a place of encouragement and support in your marriage, there is a thread for situations very similar to yours over in the Women's folder....it's called "Surviving our Spiritual Mismatch Encouragement Thread"...HERE is a link to it if you feel you want to post in it.



pbaribeault -> RE: My girls fight all the TIME! (4/18/2008 10:14:51 AM)

The reason I count is because I consider it courteous, in situations where instant obedience is not an important element of the situation (not like "stop pouring") to give my girl the space to think through the idea that consequences are coming and to make up her mind what to do in a calm reasoned way.

This makes a lot more headway with my girl, because I think too much pressure or head-to-head conflict really gets to her, and then she can't think that the smart thing to do is obey. She seems to panic at the emotionality of the situation and break down into a fuss not out of an "I won't" spirit, but just because she's not coping well with the conflict itself.

I use this in a teaching behaviour situation, not in a situation where she resists obeying a known command. In general I don't use a lot of commands, and even with commands I present a time frame for compliance (or a warning) when I can.

I guess I'm thinking that I'm cultivating more of an environment that peruses her choice to submit based on a trust that I will follow through. I expect obedience, but I'm getting at it through a reasoned choice, so I allow a count of 5 for wisdom to take effect (because wisdom's not easy for a 3 year old).



manda59 -> RE: My girls fight all the TIME! (4/18/2008 10:18:52 AM)

pbaribeault,

That's funny - I used to do "5" for the counting too, for my ds (3 was fine for my dd but my ds needed the 5 - he'd often totally meltdown if I just counted to 3, but coped so much better with 5. It's like he only just realised by 3 what I wanted him to do, and then panicked because he'd left it too late.)



buckifn -> RE: My girls fight all the TIME! (4/18/2008 4:20:39 PM)

quote:

My husband does yell at them, it's a bad habit that he has, that's how he was raised, even know his grandma still yells at him when she's talking to him, we have also spoken about that and he tries to stop himself, but he has a really hard time.


As long as that is happening you really do not have a leg to stand on in getting your children to do otherwise. Children model what they live...be it good or bad. I would say the place to start is get your husband in parenting classes and then as he learns let him pass on to the daughters how to handle conflict appropriately. Saying it is because of the way he was raised is only excusing it away and your daughters will definitely pick up on the excuses as they get older.



pbaribeault -> RE: My girls fight all the TIME! (4/18/2008 6:23:07 PM)

I think it is possible to modify a child's behaviour even if a parent isn't up to the same standard. It's somewhat harder, because of the modeling effect, but it's not hopeless. I occasionally snap at my daughter or shout, but that doesn't make it so that I'm not working with her to control her tone of voice.

Parenting classes might be ideal, but a place to start might be just to get Dad to commit to trying to 'yell' at them in a quieter voice. He sounds checked-in to trying to solve this problem, so he's probably willing to set a reasonable goal for his own voice. (Lots of people in apartments, even hotel rooms learn that they can 'yell' quietly) If he's not a full time parent, his occasional lapses (as long as he's working on it) probably won't derail the whole process.

When he sees that as effective, he might be motivated to pursue some information to improve his parenting in general.



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