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RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? - 4/26/2008 9:11:01 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
quote:
What does man have within himself to do such a thing? A will, concience, knowledge of right and wrong...ect...
An ability to obey the command! I call it being created in God's Image!
The flesh doesn't have the ability... Only the Spirit... Man isn't born with the Spirit... Do the math...
John
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RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? - 4/26/2008 9:26:58 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3613
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
Futhermore, God looses souls to satan every day, however, in the end God is Triumphant!
How does God lose to Satan? If that's the case what stoped Satan from winning in regards to Job?
What soul was ripped from the hand of God and placed in Hell by Satan?
quote:
God may loose battles, but HE will win the war.
How do you know for sure? Your words...
no one is a free agent, they are all pre-writen programs, pupets, robots...ect...(so to speek) that only do what is inevitably going to happen and take place because it is all set in to order by God's will.
Yet God wins?
John
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RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? - 4/26/2008 9:28:55 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3613
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
From what does man purify himself? By obeying the command to repent(Act 17:30) and put their faith in HIS blood to cleans them from all sin.
The flesh cannot repent... Man apart from the Spirit cannot repent...
John
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RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? - 4/26/2008 10:03:53 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3119
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
The flesh doesn't have the ability What are you saying here? Physical man has no intellectual capacity, no willful intent, no understanding of right and wrong? This is utter nonsense, John, resulting from a totally misinformed view of God's sovereignty. There's really no purpose to further discussion when you've stepped beyond the bounds of rationality!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? - 4/26/2008 10:55:52 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1921
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John:
You forgot to answer this critical question (or did it expose the fallacy of your positon?):
quote:
Did you have a special revelation from birth that you were already saved? Please tell us, since this is indeed a novel thing. How many others do you know who were already saved when they were born and therefore did not have to respond to the Gospel?
Either you were born saved, or you had to believe and repent somewhere along the way. Which was it? Please tell us clearly how you managed to avoid any involvement with your salvation. It should be most enlightening.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? - 4/26/2008 11:26:10 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3613
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
The flesh doesn't have the ability What are you saying here? Physical man has no intellectual capacity, no willful intent, no understanding of right and wrong? This is utter nonsense, John, resulting from a totally misinformed view of God's sovereignty. There's really no purpose to further discussion when you've stepped beyond the bounds of rationality!
The flesh is death, the Spirit is life... What does intellectual capacity gain one? Understanding the things of the Spriit? No... What does the understanding of right and wrong do for those without the Spirit?
John
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RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? - 4/26/2008 11:36:37 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3613
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
John:
You forgot to answer this critical question (or did it expose the fallacy of your positon?):
Is your view so weak you must resort to the above?
Actually it didn't make much since the first time you asked... Now that your question is more clear I'll be glad to answer...
quote:
Either you were born saved, or you had to believe and repent somewhere along the way. Which was it? Please tell us clearly how you managed to avoid any involvement with your salvation. It should be most enlightening.
Simple... I was raised from the dead... I didn't come to God with my heart of stone... My mind apart from the Holy Spirit could not understand things of the Spirit... I was changed by God, I didn't change myself and then ask God for anything...
John
Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
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RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? - 4/27/2008 10:47:45 AM
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Diolectic
Posts: 598
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHequote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
God's grace is never merited BUTFaith is a channel or conduit for righteousness to be accounted to us? Faith is just one of the EVERYTHING that God grants us... Just as breath, He grants all people with repentance, some only refuse, that is why they are in hell.
Not because God wants them their.
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If rightousness = right standing with GOD, then faith is also our justification (in order) to be in right standing with HIM.
God is justified in making us righteous because of our faith.
If we didn't have faith(believ and/or agree to) in Christ, God would not be justified in accounting us as righteous. In other words, God would have no grounds to give us right standing with HIM.
All this is because with out faith, we woud be denying God.
The Object of our faith(Jesus) is our rightousness and rightousness is our standing or position with God because of our faith(agreement with God).
We are in Christ of whom is our Righteousness. In Christ is our standing or position with God the Father. Christ is the only reason we justified... Thyat is whaty I said.
However, He needs to be justified to forgive us.
If we deny Christ and the father by not having faith, He can not forgive us.
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God did not move Pharaoh to, God judged him by hardening his heart after he did it himself. Exodus 14:4 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the Lord. And they did so.
God moved Pharaoh to go after God's people... Out of Judgment.
Are you trying to say that God didn't harden Pharaoh's heart out of judgment, buit only because God wanted Pharaoh to rebel?
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However, according to you, God made satan do all that he did becaus God is the ultimate cause of every thing and controls every thing and thought. I never said made... I said God was in control... And since Satan could only do what God allowed that is without question... What is the diference between Satan and Pharaoh?
You say that God made Pharaoh to rebel, why wouldn't you say that God made satan do all He does?
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Btw... What terrible thing did Job do for God to remove the hedge of protection around him? Did you say that Job removed his hedge of protection around him?
I thought God did that?
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I beg you, do not attemt to console a greiving person who lost an unsaved one.
You would probly tell them that God wanted them in hell, He hated them before they were born.
God didn't want to save them and they are in hell because that is what they are created for. I'd say there are in the hand of God who is just... You wouldn't want to with hold the truth from them would you.
Give them the "full council of God".
Just as Paul was a debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians, so are we.
You are obligated to tell people who mourn over unsave who die that God wanted them in hell, He hated them before they were born.
God didn't want to save them and they are in hell because that is what they are created for.
Give them the "full council of God".
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Actually He does the humbling... If left to our own we continue to serve oursleves... Why does HE tell us to humble ourselves? James 4:10, 1Peter 5:5-6.
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You don't deny that you think God is a sadiustic tyrant.
Hhmmm. Sure... How do you not?
You say that God creates sentient being just for torment.
You say that God condems because HE does not provide for that which HE command...
We need faith and repentance to be saved through grace, God will not give it to most, therefore HE condemns them for what HE did not provide.
God hardens the hearts only for the purpose to make people do what HE commands them not to do as in the example of Pharaoh.
God condems people for that which is unaviodable.
again, how do you not see this as sadistic & tyranicle?
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Here, this Scripture actually say that Pharaoh hardened his heart and that God didn't.
Why didn't this Scripture say that God did it? Scripture says God did it more than once... 1Sam 6:6 is talking about the whole thing, not just about one incident.
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What does man have within himself to do such a thing? A will, concience, knowledge of right and wrong...ect...
An ability to obey the command! I call it being created in God's Image! The flesh doesn't have the ability... Only the Spirit... Man isn't born with the Spirit... Do the math... God would never comand the flesh to do anything. God commands the person.
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
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quote:
Futhermore, God looses souls to satan every day, however, in the end God is Triumphant! What soul was ripped from the hand of God and placed in Hell by Satan? Most of the human race!!!
Oh wait, you think that God wants most of the human race in hell.
Never mind. 
(I know that Man chooses his own destany, but I my answer is to dispute yours by saying that people do not go to hell because God wants them their. It is people that send themselve to hell, Not God.
God may place them there out of judgment because they rebeled, But God never wants anybody to go their.
But, you think HE does)
quote:
How do you know for sure? Your words...quote:
no one is a free agent, they are all pre-writen programs, pupets, robots...ect...(so to speek) that only do what is inevitably going to happen and take place because it is all set in to order by God's will. I was voicing what your position says and thinks.
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quote:
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From what does man purify himself? By obeying the command to repent(Act 17:30) and put their faith in HIS blood to cleans them from all sin. The flesh cannot repent... Man apart from the Spirit cannot repent... God never commands the flesh to repent.
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
quote:
What does intellectual capacity gain one? Understanding the things of the Spriit? No... What does the understanding of right and wrong do for those without the Spirit? Acknowlege God, admit HE is right, Ask for forgiveness becasuse of sin...ect...
< Message edited by Diolectic -- 4/28/2008 11:58:51 AM >
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RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? - 4/27/2008 3:40:54 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1921
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quote:
I was changed by God, I didn't change myself and then ask God for anything...
IOW you are indeed unique.
According to your statement above, it was not necessary for you to (1) repent, (2) ask God to forgive you your sins, nor (3) necessary for you to receive Christ as your Lord and Savior.
Scripture says that we are to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (which includes receiving Him), and we shall be saved (Acts 16:31) and that we are to repent and be converted so that our sins may be blotted out (Acts 3:19).
Yours is certainly a novel experience, since Scripture does not show us this pattern for sinners who are converted. Hence you refuse to acknowledge that there must be a response to the Gospel from every sinner. But even Spurgeon would insist on that.
Whether you call this "doing" or "believing and repenting" there is no doubt whatsoever that every sinner must respond to the Gospel in order to be saved. That you managed to avoid it certainly makes you unique.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? - 4/27/2008 5:06:06 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3613
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
I was changed by God, I didn't change myself and then ask God for anything...
According to your statement above, it was not necessary for you to (1) repent, (2) ask God to forgive you your sins, nor (3) necessary for you to receive Christ as your Lord and Savior.
That's according to your view of salvation... I know that I didn't save myself... I didn't do a thing to make God save me... He saved me.. I didn't help, want it or care apart from the changes He made in my life...
quote:
Whether you call this "doing" or "believing and repenting" there is no doubt whatsoever that every sinner must respond to the Gospel in order to be saved. That you managed to avoid it certainly makes you unique.
While dead in my sins He made me alive... I didn't give myself spiritual CPR...
John
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RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? - 4/27/2008 5:43:20 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1921
Status: offline
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quote:
While dead in my sins He made me alive... I didn't give myself spiritual CPR...
Neither did the three thousand who heard the Gospel on the Day of Pentecost and were not only saved, but baptized the same day.
1. The Gospel was preached (Acts 2:22-36)
2. Sinners were convicted and conviced (Acts 2:37)
3. Sinners were commanded to repent and they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38-40)
4. Sinners believed and received the Word (i.e. received Christ) and were saved and baptized (Acts 2:41). We know from Acts 10:44-48 that baptism follows the receiving of the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Notice that they received the Holy Spirit only after they repented, not before. But according to your theory, you received the Holy Spirit before you repented. That's not according to Scripture.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? - 4/27/2008 9:44:11 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3613
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
While dead in my sins He made me alive... I didn't give myself spiritual CPR...
Neither did the three thousand who heard the Gospel on the Day of Pentecost and were not only saved, but baptized the same day.
1. The Gospel was preached (Acts 2:22-36)
2. Sinners were convicted and conviced (Acts 2:37)
3. Sinners were commanded to repent and they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38-40)
4. Sinners believed and received the Word (i.e. received Christ) and were saved and baptized (Acts 2:41). We know from Acts 10:44-48 that baptism follows the receiving of the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Notice that they received the Holy Spirit only after they repented, not before. But according to your theory, you received the Holy Spirit before you repented. That's not according to Scripture.
It's according to the following scriptures... Man prior to salvation.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Romans 8:7-8 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
That only leaves those in the Spirit pleasing God....
Man is either dead in the flesh or alive in the Spirit... Your view would demand there to be a third state of man, something between being dead in the flesh and alive the Spirit.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Your view has man starting what God says He started and will finish...
Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Ask yourself how a fallen sinner who hates God suddenly was able to generate affections for God. If I share the gospel to two men sitting in the same room and one believes the gospel, why is it that he believed and not the other? Was one more spiritual, have more love, have a better knowledge, originate a better thought? From where in his soul did he get the power to believe? Any answer other than God’s pure grace is saying that God choose us because of something right or good within us. Even if you believe that God initiates with grace, we still have to respond by drawing from something within our unregenerate nature.
It's grace through faith, not grace plus faith....
John
1 Corinthians 1:23-24 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
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RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? - 4/27/2008 11:46:38 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1775
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From: Kansas
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I have to ask…what is the definition of repentances? One biblical definition is:
quote:
When the word "repent" is used in the Word of God in the context of Biblical salvation, it is referring to a truly God-given, Spirit-led change of heart and mind toward God about sin.
So I have to ask, is repentance a Spirit led change of heart and if it is, would that not say that man does not make the decision to repent?
I’m just playing the advocate here but it does seem a worthy question.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? - 4/28/2008 12:10:50 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1921
Status: offline
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quote:
So I have to ask, is repentance a Spirit led change of heart and if it is, would that not say that man does not make the decision to repent?
Not necessarily. The Holy Spirit convicts and convinces men, but men can and do harden their hearts against this Divine influence. That is why we have this warning in Scripture repeated three times:
Today, if ye will hear His voice, HARDEN NOT YOUR HEART, as in the provocation, as in the day of temptation in the wilderness" (Psalm. 95:7,8).
Wherefore, as the Holy Ghost saith, Today if ye will hear His voice, HARDEN NOT YOUR HEARTS, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness" (Heb. 3:7,8)
As it is said, Today if ye will hear His voice, HARDEN NOT YOUR HEARTS. For if [Joshua] had given them rest, then would He not afterward have spoken of another day" (Heb. 4:7)
The ones who harden their hearts also resist the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:51), therefore grace is by no means irresistible, and repentance is by no means a foregone conclusion. The rich young ruler who loved His wealth more than eternal life and walked away from Christ is a case in point. Let us not deceive ourselves and others with a false understanding of man's responsibility to respond to God.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? - 4/28/2008 1:36:37 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1921
Status: offline
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quote:
Your view has man starting what God says He started and will finish...
Just explain Acts chapter 2 in the light of what you have stated. Let's just keep our focus.
According to your theory, those 3,000 were already pre-destined for salvation and already had the Holy Spirit before Peter began preaching. In other words they were already saved before they were convicted. What need for the Gospel, or the conviction of the Holy Spirit, or the command to repent, or the subsequent gift of the Holy Spirit?
Or are you implying that Acts chapter 2 was meant to confuse us? We are told that God is not the God of confusion. Therefore please show us how your theory fits Acts chapter 2.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? - 4/28/2008 10:19:15 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3613
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
Just explain Acts chapter 2 in the light of what you have stated. Let's just keep our focus.
My focus is man's condition and abilities (more like lack of...) prior to salvation... You say the flesh can please God, yet God says it cannot...
quote:
According to your theory, those 3,000 were already pre-destined for salvation and already had the Holy Spirit before Peter began preaching. In other words they were already saved before they were convicted. What need for the Gospel, or the conviction of the Holy Spirit, or the command to repent, or the subsequent gift of the Holy Spirit?
To some preaching is foolishness, a stumbling block, BUT to those called the power and wisdom of God...
quote:
Or are you implying that Acts chapter 2 was meant to confuse us?
I am not confused... So you are speaking for youself...
John
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RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? - 4/28/2008 10:21:43 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3613
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
So I have to ask, is repentance a Spirit led change of heart and if it is, would that not say that man does not make the decision to repent?
Not necessarily. The Holy Spirit convicts and convinces men, but men can and do harden their hearts against this Divine influence. That is why we have this warning in Scripture repeated three times:
Today, if ye will hear His voice, HARDEN NOT YOUR HEART, as in the provocation, as in the day of temptation in the wilderness" (Psalm. 95:7,8).
Wherefore, as the Holy Ghost saith, Today if ye will hear His voice, HARDEN NOT YOUR HEARTS, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness" (Heb. 3:7,8)
As it is said, Today if ye will hear His voice, HARDEN NOT YOUR HEARTS. For if [Joshua] had given them rest, then would He not afterward have spoken of another day" (Heb. 4:7)
The ones who harden their hearts also resist the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:51), therefore grace is by no means irresistible, and repentance is by no means a foregone conclusion. The rich young ruler who loved His wealth more than eternal life and walked away from Christ is a case in point. Let us not deceive ourselves and others with a false understanding of man's responsibility to respond to God.
Man apart from the Spirit cannot repent... The flesh will not repent, it's master is sin, not God... Cannot serve both masters...
John
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RE: Does the Potter Make Some Pottery for Common Use? - 4/28/2008 12:25:04 PM
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Ps103
Posts: 11587
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: Here, now
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