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RE: Comment made at church - 4/23/2008 3:05:37 PM
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SD456
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
quote:
I believe that idea comes from fear. Too many christians do not trust that they can really recognize and know Jesus' voice, even though scripture teaches us that 'His sheep know His voice and will not listen to a stranger."
Thank you for saying this, SD. This is so true. And part of the 'paralysis' has come about through our dependence on Bible teachers, pastors and study helps such as are in study Bibles. When I was in Bible Study Fellowship many years ago, one of the absolute best things they taught me was to GET RID OF YOUR STUDY BIBLE and let the Holy Spirit lead and guide you into all truth---don't be led by another man's thought. I went out and bought an NASB reference Bible and have never turned back. Oh, certainly, I do check out commentaries (on occasion but rarely) and I do listen to the teaching of others, but my main source of God is from Himself---firsthand learning.
Jesus said, "You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life." John 5:39-40
Jesus makes it clear that these men were missing something even though they were very knowledgable of scripture. They knew the word but not The Word. He is a faithful, patient Teacher and reveals Himself to those who wait on Him.
Thank you, LiveLoved, that is very well said. We really need to depend on Holy Spirit and trust that He is able to teach us and lead us into all truth and we very much need to study, study, study scripture under Holy Spirit's leading.
Scripture cannot give us eternal life - Jesus does. Scripture is meant to lead us to Jesus who is the one who gives us life.
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RE: Comment made at church - 4/23/2008 3:09:08 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 5739
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
Jesus said, "You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life." John 5:39-40
Jesus makes it clear that these men were missing something even though they were very knowledgable of scripture. They knew the word but not The Word. He is a faithful, patient Teacher and reveals Himself to those who wait on Him.
I find it interesting that you chose to quote that verse, since Jesus was speaking to unbelievers who were so wrapped up in their particular beliefs that they missed the Author and His intended purposes as revealed in scripture.
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RE: Comment made at church - 4/23/2008 3:22:49 PM
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terryjohn
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Interesting question and I still can't see anyone bowing down to a book. In fact, if they did I get this picture of angels wanting to chop their heads off. There are certain dangers in worshipping the bible. For one thing many have had saving faith in Christ without having read or even fully understood the bible. The other is, we may well suppose that knowing the bible backwards and all the theology would some how save us when scripture clearly tells us it is not our bible knowledge but our knowledge of Christ that will save us. In fact, without faith in Christ scripture is but another book. We also want to guard against a cold, calculating, head knowledge being a cheap substitute for a love of Christ Himself. The last thing a man before the judgement seat wants to be heard saying is, "Oh, hi Jesus, I've read about you!"
"Begone, I never knew you!"
That is when we get defensive about the truth of scripture it is as if we do not know God. The problem with scripture being the ultimqte truth is that it gives men an excuse for not loving God or their neighbour for while this truth remains written on pages it is not written on the heart. Thus men say they love God because scripture says that they must but they do not, however, they are content because they have done what scripture has told them to do. You can even begin to see that there are some who say Jesus is the Christ and when asked why they believe that they say because the bible says He is. You then begin to see the madness of singing the song, "Jesus loves because the bible tells me so." I mean, if you do not know the love of God then you may well fear the authority of scripture being questioned for it has become your substitute for the reality.
With regard to new revelation, yes it does happen every day to every believer for as we grow in faith the Holy Spirit shows us seemingly new things about our love and faith in Chirst. Sure it may not be new to others but it is to me. Actually, all of history is but one ongoing revelation for it is accepted that many of the things that are happening in the world are not fully understood until they actually happen and only then do they become a revelation. Hence, there would have been some things written in scripture that really did not make sense to those who were around at the time it was written. Hence, after 2000 years of hindsight, we have a better perspective on the great things our God has and is doing. This is revelation the early followers of Chirst could not have seen or have understood. So you could say that all new technology, learning and the continuing foolishness of men, still gives us new insights into how great our God is. When we search our DNA codes we are stunned afresh by God's greatness in ways preceeding generations were not. Nevertheless, in all these new revelations God is found to be the same for we are simply seeing a little more of Him than we once did.
In the end, God was serious about writing something on our hearts and not on tablets of stone or pages. No wonder we sing about His wonders being new every morning for our God is alive and bounding out His purpose in the lives of men and women.
I then awake with a desire to see more and shudder at hearing men claiming they have seen it all and know it all. Never let a knowledge of scripture be a substitute for knowing Chirst.
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RE: Comment made at church - 4/23/2008 4:01:22 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2472
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From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
Please share the exact words they used and if they confessed to having a disregard for the holy scriptures. Did that actually come out of their mouths
?
In his book The God Chasers Tommy Tenny called the Scriptures "old, dusty love letters" and claimed we need new revelations from God.
_____________________________
The grace of God is infinite and eternal. As it had no beginning, so it can have no end, and being an attribute of God, it is as boundless as infinitude.
A. W. Tozer (1897–1963)
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RE: Comment made at church - 4/23/2008 4:11:34 PM
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earthless
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Colliefan,
And that is just one small example of several. Morris Cerullo and others from the same circuit have said things which makes my skin crawl.
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RE: Comment made at church - 4/23/2008 5:05:57 PM
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SD456
Posts: 1495
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
Please share the exact words they used and if they confessed to having a disregard for the holy scriptures. Did that actually come out of their mouths
?
In his book The God Chasers Tommy Tenny called the Scriptures "old, dusty love letters" and claimed we need new revelations from God.
You've taken that out of context. I read that book. It's a great book! You can't take things that people say out of the context of the entire chapter and separate it from his thought processes.
Tommy was speaking about how we need a relationship with God Himself and how that relationship needs to be renewed all the time. And yes, we DO need fresh revelations of God's love ALL the time, which is what Tommy is referring to. Tommy meant that if we each, personally, do not have a revelation of God's love for ourselves then just knowing the bible, old love letters written by other people, will not do us any good. We ALL need revelation of God's love made real in our own hearts.
Tommy absolutely LOVES the bible and knows it far better than most of you guys know it, so your disparaging remark and taking his words out of context are not what I would consider we christians have the right to do.
But we're not talking about Tommy Tenney. The OP is speaking about some offhanded remark made by someone in her church.
< Message edited by SD456 -- 4/23/2008 5:14:03 PM >
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RE: Comment made at church - 4/23/2008 6:28:50 PM
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deliveredarling
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It may have been an offhanded remark, however in this service their were new believers, the person who made the comment is a spiritual leader and didn't like hearing scripture used as reference to a particular comment used. His reply to that was " we don't worship the Bible". Now, SD you can think, feel whatever your little heart desires. Under the circumstances, the hair on the back of my neck stood up knowing this "leader" and the things he is presently doing in his life. I'm not usually particularly sensitive to "off handed remarks" such as this. This one did not sound right, nor did it feel right. I took it as a dismissal of scripture. As you have seen from other posters, there is dangerous theology out there. With my husband being the new believer, I'm probably a little more sensitive than most. I have been in and out of churches since I was a kid and have heard all kinds of crazy stuff. It's taken hubby this long to "get it" and I don't want him to hear something that will send him running!
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Comment made at church - 4/23/2008 7:20:48 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1364
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quote:
It's taken hubby this long to "get it" and I don't want him to hear something that will send him running!
Delivered,
I really do appreciate your concern and my comments were not to you or your situation but to other posters. Anyway, the Lord knows and will care for your husband. Jesus is BIGGER than the Bible and if your husband learns that from the beginning, he will be better off. God's word can lead us to Jesus but it can also lead us to self righteousness. (We can easily dismiss these men as 'unbelievers' but then we'd have to dismiss most of those people who we also fellowship with and think of as believers.?!) I know that is NOT the path you want for your husband. So my prayer is that God will use even what you see as wrong or evil as GOOD for your husband and bring him to even stronger and surer faith in the One Who we love. Bless you, LL 
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RE: Comment made at church - 4/23/2008 7:28:08 PM
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earthless
Posts: 5315
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
It may have been an offhanded remark, however in this service their were new believers, the person who made the comment is a spiritual leader and didn't like hearing scripture used as reference to a particular comment used. His reply to that was " we don't worship the Bible". Now, SD you can think, feel whatever your little heart desires. Under the circumstances, the hair on the back of my neck stood up knowing this "leader" and the things he is presently doing in his life. I'm not usually particularly sensitive to "off handed remarks" such as this. This one did not sound right, nor did it feel right. I took it as a dismissal of scripture. As you have seen from other posters, there is dangerous theology out there. With my husband being the new believer, I'm probably a little more sensitive than most. I have been in and out of churches since I was a kid and have heard all kinds of crazy stuff. It's taken hubby this long to "get it" and I don't want him to hear something that will send him running!
I believe we refer to that as the conviction of the Holy Spirit.
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RE: Comment made at church - 4/24/2008 12:02:10 AM
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amyk
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I don't worship the Bible, but even if Jesus Christ Himself appears to me in a vision and speaks directly to me, I also would not worship that vision or those words he spoke. However, you can be sure I would be paying attention to every word He said, replaying the vision and His words over and over again in my mind, and trying to obey anything He commanded me to do in such a vision. This is the same way that we who know the Bible is the word of God are to see it. It is God's precious words to us - why would we not want to think about it, talk about it, meditate on it, etc? Not for the sake of those words themselves, but because those very words draw us closer to our Lord and Savior! So, yes, I love the Bible! But I love it because it draws me to Jesus. And therefore I will not worship the Bible, but I will worship the One revealed in its pages.
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RE: Comment made at church - 4/24/2008 4:04:00 PM
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SD456
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
It may have been an offhanded remark, however in this service their were new believers, the person who made the comment is a spiritual leader and didn't like hearing scripture used as reference to a particular comment used. His reply to that was " we don't worship the Bible". Now, SD you can think, feel whatever your little heart desires. Under the circumstances, the hair on the back of my neck stood up knowing this "leader" and the things he is presently doing in his life. I'm not usually particularly sensitive to "off handed remarks" such as this. This one did not sound right, nor did it feel right. I took it as a dismissal of scripture. As you have seen from other posters, there is dangerous theology out there. With my husband being the new believer, I'm probably a little more sensitive than most. I have been in and out of churches since I was a kid and have heard all kinds of crazy stuff. It's taken hubby this long to "get it" and I don't want him to hear something that will send him running!
I think I would be more concerned with the fact that you 'took it' as a dismissal of scripture so readily. Did you speak personally to this person afterwards to ask them what they meant? Or are you interpreting an intent into what he said which he never meant? How do you know what he meant if you don't speak face to face with him? Communication misunderstandings happen all the time and things definately should be clarified.
I encourage you to sit down with this person in leadership and tell him your concerns and ask him to clarify what he meant. Talking about it in the forums isn't going to help because everyone is going to be giving their opinion about someone else's partial statement when they have NO clue what's going on in that person's heart.
quote:
the person who made the comment is a spiritual leader and didn't like hearing scripture used as reference to a particular comment used
Are you 100% positive that was his motivation? Did you ask him and he said he made that comment because he didn't like hearing someone mention the bible? Have you decided in your heart what this leader's motivations and reasonings were without asking him? Communication, communication, communication is so very important in the body of Christ and the # 1 thing that is lacking.
< Message edited by SD456 -- 4/24/2008 4:19:22 PM >
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RE: Comment made at church - 4/24/2008 4:08:33 PM
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SD456
Posts: 1495
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
It may have been an offhanded remark, however in this service their were new believers, the person who made the comment is a spiritual leader and didn't like hearing scripture used as reference to a particular comment used. His reply to that was " we don't worship the Bible". Now, SD you can think, feel whatever your little heart desires. Under the circumstances, the hair on the back of my neck stood up knowing this "leader" and the things he is presently doing in his life. I'm not usually particularly sensitive to "off handed remarks" such as this. This one did not sound right, nor did it feel right. I took it as a dismissal of scripture. As you have seen from other posters, there is dangerous theology out there. With my husband being the new believer, I'm probably a little more sensitive than most. I have been in and out of churches since I was a kid and have heard all kinds of crazy stuff. It's taken hubby this long to "get it" and I don't want him to hear something that will send him running!
I believe we refer to that as the conviction of the Holy Spirit.
Or a misunderstanding brought on by our lack of understanding someone else's intent. Not every 'hair raising on the arm' is from the Holy Spirit by far.
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RE: Comment made at church - 4/24/2008 5:14:59 PM
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deliveredarling
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Actions speak louder than words my friend.
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"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Comment made at church - 4/25/2008 8:24:59 AM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
Or a misunderstanding brought on by our lack of understanding someone else's intent. Not every 'hair raising on the arm' is from the Holy Spirit by far.
Yet according to some... they never need worry about conviction from the Holy Spirit about something being wrong/not of him because they think they could never be deceived.
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RE: Comment made at church - 4/25/2008 10:44:22 AM
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Liveloved
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quote:
Are you 100% positive that was his motivation? Did you ask him and he said he made that comment because he didn't like hearing someone mention the bible? Have you decided in your heart what this leader's motivations and reasonings were without asking him? Communication, communication, communication is so very important in the body of Christ and the # 1 thing that is lacking.
How very true, SD. Thank you for this reminder. We judge unrighteously. Jesus warns us of this over and over. God warned the same way in the OT. But do we listen? Rarely. We love to form judgments of others and put them in the boxes of our making and the evil that results from 'our' doing in the church is horrendous. Having watched this over and over and over again, I think it is time we listen. He who has an ear to hear. . .
(Delivered, once again I am responding to what this person shared and not specifically to your situation. LL)
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RE: Comment made at church - 4/25/2008 1:00:57 PM
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SD456
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Actions speak louder than words my friend.
Does that statement mean that you have decided not to ask this leader what he meant and instead decide his intent without clarification?
Pastors and leaders do not have an easy job, especially when so many under their leadership do exactly this same thing. They take offense at a statement made without sitting down and talking to the leader and asking them what they meant. They then go off half-cocked and spread rumors about the guy adding their own 'intent' into what the leader meant (which is making it up out of their own imagination).
So far, it sounds like you have not sat down and spoken with this man with an open heart to hear what his intent is.
< Message edited by SD456 -- 4/25/2008 1:18:13 PM >
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RE: Comment made at church - 4/25/2008 1:09:21 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2472
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
Tommy was speaking about how we need a relationship with God Himself and how that relationship needs to be renewed all the time. And yes, we DO need fresh revelations of God's love ALL the time, which is what Tommy is referring to
and this is why we can go into His word every day as it is a living breathinng document. and why do we need experiences to validate His word?
_____________________________
The grace of God is infinite and eternal. As it had no beginning, so it can have no end, and being an attribute of God, it is as boundless as infinitude.
A. W. Tozer (1897–1963)
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RE: Comment made at church - 4/25/2008 1:21:54 PM
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SD456
Posts: 1495
Joined: 8/6/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
Tommy was speaking about how we need a relationship with God Himself and how that relationship needs to be renewed all the time. And yes, we DO need fresh revelations of God's love ALL the time, which is what Tommy is referring to
and this is why we can go into His word every day as it is a living breathinng document. and why do we need experiences to validate His word?
The same reason you would need your spouse to speak words of love to you rather than just reading a book about how much your spouse loves you. It's called a relationship. Reading a book about how much my fiancee loves me does not satisfy my heart - I must experience his love toward me and hear the words spoken to me.
Having God reveal His love to you is not 'validating' His word, it's naturally experiencing the love that flows out of God's heart and is something that is impossible NOT to experience in a relationship with God.
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RE: Comment made at church - 4/25/2008 2:54:46 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1583
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Personally, and I really can't imagine any of you viewing this too differently, and had i known such flack would come from it, I would have made it clear from the beginning. I just don't think you can say that someone who has just gambled every red cent they had away, gotten drunk, refuses to get a job, shall I continue? ( or does this satisfy you enough), and being a"spiritual leader" gives one the impression that they meant no harm in it. My Bible says "be not only hearers of the word, but doers also". Do you think his actions totally reflect his statement? I do! Does my pastor have this information? Not from me he doesn't. I don't know if anyone else has filled him in-it's not my place.
BTW, my original intent, if you look back, was to find out what people thought about the statement in itself-not the person who said it. Same with the new revelations. Both are "new" to me and I wanted to discuss them. Not necessarily the how's, and why's.
Granted, this guy is having a rough time. As a "leader", he needs to step down and not be an example right now. Do we need to be lifting him up? Certainly. That's really hard to do when they refuse to listen.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Comment made at church - 4/25/2008 9:12:29 PM
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SD456
Posts: 1495
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
You've taken that out of context. I read that book. It's a great book! You can't take things that people say out of the context of the entire chapter and separate it from his thought processes.
You did the same thing with my quote! 
I'm sorry if I've offended you in any way, deliverdarling. But your original quote in the OP said nothing except that this guy said, "I don't worship the bible", which you then said you agree with, adding, "I worship the author."
I didn't take your quote out of context since you didn't say much of anything TO take out of context.
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