RE: Colorado Lawmaker Calls Alien Workers "Illiterate Peasants"

RE: Colorado Lawmaker Calls Alien Workers "Illiterate Peasants" (Full Version)

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SovereignIsHe -> RE: Colorado Lawmaker Calls Alien Workers "Illiterate Peasants" (5/1/2008 4:13:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JimboFletch quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: JimboFletch I agree. I saw that first-hand during the 70s when I was in the Navy and visited places like the Domincan Republic and Brazil, where I saw families living in cardboard boxes and drinking& bathing in the run-off water from the city. One has to have lived a very sheltered life in the US to think they are less than wealthy in comparison to much of the rest of the world. Do you feel blessed? John Absolutely. Those people did the best they could with what they had. I did too. The results showed me that it's not just my efforts but God's grace that makes the difference. I had nothing to do with being born here, to my parents, and with my opportunities. Excellent post... :) John

dbark -> RE: Colorado Lawmaker Calls Alien Workers "Illiterate Peasants" (5/1/2008 4:36:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: dbark What does it "imply" that isn't true? As an American, you are rich and you have privileges that many, many other people do not have. It implies in many circles negative concepts... quote: By changing the wording to "blessed" you seem to be implying that God has chosen you to lavish wealth onto while cursing the vast majority of the world to poverty and suffering. So, I should believe that I am the source of the riches and privilege? The roof over my head is my doing, not God's? My job... God didn't bless me with talents, I made myself into somethign of value and I am owed what comes to me? quote: That attitude is one that has doomed the human race to repeat the cycle of poverty and inequity for countless generations. Believing that one is blessed by God is the attitude that has doomed the human race to repeat the cycle of poverty and inequity for countless generations? quote: It's time to start thinking of people in this world as simply people. Not Americans. Not Mexicans. Let's stop perpetuating labels and divisions and start loving and caring about each other ahead of ourselves. Given that I am not blessed, but that I earned my way I guess the best thing I can say to those who are not "rich and privileged" is, get to work...[8\|] John Well done in avoiding the topic altogether. So, there are negative connotations to being rich and privileged - so what? Tell me again why that label doesn't apply to you? I didn't say that you are the reason for your riches and privilege or that you are owed what comes to you - and I think it's pretty certain that you know that's not what I meant. I don't want to derail this thread because this is something of a different topic, but I want you to recognize the implications of saying that you are blessed by wealth. You, in the top 2 percent of wealthy people in the world are blessed. What does that imply of the millions of starving people in Africa and elsewhere? Why doesn't God bless them? Why did God choose you? Isn't it possible that the rain falls on the just and the unjust and that material wealth has nothing to do with "blessing"? The idea that God has blessed you and chosen not to bless billions of others - YES, this attitude has helped rich people for countless generations to salve their consciences. It's not my fault God blessed me with riches and chose to curse others with poverty. Who am I to change the balance of the world which God laid out in his perfect plans? Please. Saying "get to work" ... that's priceless. I don't even know where to start with that. I know you are being somewhat facetious, but it reveals an underlying belief of many. Mexicans are lazy - we all know that. That's why their country is so messed up - last thing we want is them coming here and screwing up America. Are you disagreeing with me when I say that we need to get past labeling and dividing people? Do you think a Christian ought to put the needs of himself and his own people before the needs of others?

dbark -> RE: Colorado Lawmaker Calls Alien Workers "Illiterate Peasants" (5/1/2008 4:48:12 PM)
Uh oh, SovereignInMe ... we are on the same side as each other in the Somalian airstrike thread. Now what are we going to do? [&:] Seriously, forgive me if I am coming across harshly or angrily as neither of those is intended. I think that we need to remember that we as Christians are on the same side and sometimes on sites like this we lose sight of that. Thanks for the good debate, I'm enjoying the exchange.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Colorado Lawmaker Calls Alien Workers "Illiterate Peasants" (5/1/2008 5:02:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dbark Well done in avoiding the topic altogether. So, there are negative connotations to being rich and privileged - so what? Tell me again why that label doesn't apply to you? I am not avoiding anything... I simply don't agree with your assessment of things... quote: I didn't say that you are the reason for your riches and privilege or that you are owed what comes to you - and I think it's pretty certain that you know that's not what I meant. don't want to derail this thread because this is something of a different topic, but I want you to recognize the implications of saying that you are blessed by wealth. You, in the top 2 percent of wealthy people in the world are blessed. What does that imply of the millions of starving people in Africa and elsewhere? The implications of me saying that whatever I have isn't a blessing from God is bigger than anything you can dream of... We are to give thanks for all things, not just what we feel is good... quote: Why doesn't God bless them? That is God's call... Why one is born in a place liken to a living hell is something that only God can answer since He alone can answer. Jsut like I don't know how He could save only eight people and a boat load of animals and drown the rest of the world... Why were two of my four kids raped? Because God didn't bless them? quote: Why did God choose you? His prerogative, certainly not because I deserved it... quote: Isn't it possible that the rain falls on the just and the unjust and that material wealth has nothing to do with "blessing"? No... If God isn't the source of the blessing who is? Chance? Me? The guy next door? quote: The idea that God has blessed you and chosen not to bless billions of others - YES, this attitude has helped rich people for countless generations to salve their consciences. It's not my fault God blessed me with riches and chose to curse others with poverty. Who am I to change the balance of the world which God laid out in his perfect plans? Please. I don't agree... Who are you to say who has or hasn't been blessed? And what amount of prejudiced is your view founded on? To believe one is blessed it's assumed by you they have no regard for those who aren't? I don't believe that is a fair judgment... quote: Saying "get to work" ... that's priceless. I don't even know where to start with that. I know you are being somewhat facetious, but it reveals an underlying belief of many. Mexicans are lazy - we all know that. That's why their country is so messed up - last thing we want is them coming here and screwing up America. Completely facetious... Actually Hispanics(They don't like being called Mexicans, I am married to one..) are generally hard working... At least the ones I have personally known all my life... quote: Are you disagreeing with me when I say that we need to get past labeling and dividing people? Lables like "rich and privileged"? quote: Do you think a Christian ought to put the needs of himself and his own people before the needs of others? Never said otherwise... John

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Colorado Lawmaker Calls Alien Workers "Illiterate Peasants" (5/1/2008 5:03:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dbark Uh oh, SovereignInMe ... we are on the same side as each other in the Somalian airstrike thread. Now what are we going to do? [&:] Seriously, forgive me if I am coming across harshly or angrily as neither of those is intended. I think that we need to remember that we as Christians are on the same side and sometimes on sites like this we lose sight of that. Thanks for the good debate, I'm enjoying the exchange. No problem here... John

dbark -> RE: Colorado Lawmaker Calls Alien Workers "Illiterate Peasants" (5/1/2008 6:05:23 PM)
quote: quote: Isn't it possible that the rain falls on the just and the unjust and that material wealth has nothing to do with "blessing"? No... If God isn't the source of the blessing who is? Chance? Me? The guy next door? That's interesting since Matt 5:45 says "that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous." Seems like you disagree with this. quote: ORIGINAL: dbark Well done in avoiding the topic altogether. So, there are negative connotations to being rich and privileged - so what? Tell me again why that label doesn't apply to you? I am not avoiding anything... I simply don't agree with your assessment of things... And yet you still refuse to answer why that label does not apply. Does it or does it not? quote: quote: Saying "get to work" ... that's priceless. I don't even know where to start with that. I know you are being somewhat facetious, but it reveals an underlying belief of many. Mexicans are lazy - we all know that. That's why their country is so messed up - last thing we want is them coming here and screwing up America. Completely facetious... Actually Hispanics(They don't like being called Mexicans, I am married to one..) are generally hard working... At least the ones I have personally known all my life... Mexicans don't like being called Mexican? That's news to me. Hispanic refers to a lot of different nationalities, Mexican is not anymore derogative than calling someone Australian. Secondly, I know that you are being facetious (though I'm not sure why - are you trying to attribute that attitude to me?), but your arguments lead to that kind of thinking/belief.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Colorado Lawmaker Calls Alien Workers "Illiterate Peasants" (5/1/2008 6:24:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dbark That's interesting since Matt 5:45 says "that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous." Seems like you disagree with this. What does the above have to do with God blessing people? The above if from Christ's teachings on loving your enemies, and this is an example of God's "charitable" love to His enemies... Of course the rain isn't always a blessing to everyone, ask those not on the Ark... quote: And yet you still refuse to answer why that label does not apply. Does it or does it not? In the context you're speaking of it's nothing short of label with stereotypes attached... quote: Mexicans don't like being called Mexican? That's news to me. In Northern California they generally request to be called Hispanics... quote: Secondly, I know that you are being facetious (though I'm not sure why - are you trying to attribute that attitude to me?), but your arguments lead to that kind of thinking/belief. My belief that I am blessed by God is mine, and if someone uses that same belief to be greedy and selfish that is their isssue. John

dbark -> RE: Colorado Lawmaker Calls Alien Workers "Illiterate Peasants" (5/1/2008 7:17:53 PM)
quote: quote: ORIGINAL: dbark That's interesting since Matt 5:45 says "that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous." Seems like you disagree with this. What does the above have to do with God blessing people? The above if from Christ's teachings on loving your enemies, and this is an example of God's "charitable" love to His enemies... Of course the rain isn't always a blessing to everyone, ask those not on the Ark... It applies perfectly because the point Jesus is making is that you can't attribute good or bad things happening to you because God is smiling on you. Your idea implies that you are rich because God favors you. quote: quote: And yet you still refuse to answer why that label does not apply. Does it or does it not? In the context you're speaking of it's nothing short of label with stereotypes attached... It's actually starting to become humorous how you refuse to answer this question. I guess that refusal simply answers itself. Your refusal to acknowledge your position of great wealth and privilege speaks volumes.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Colorado Lawmaker Calls Alien Workers "Illiterate Peasants" (5/1/2008 9:08:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dbark It applies perfectly because the point Jesus is making is that you can't attribute good or bad things happening to you because God is smiling on you. Your idea implies that you are rich because God favors you. No it doesn't since I firmly believe that whatever favor God's shows me is not merited because of me... So no, it doesn't apply at all... Keep tying but I will not deny that God has blessed me... I might as well be denying Him if I do so... quote: It's actually starting to become humorous how you refuse to answer this question. I guess that refusal simply answers itself. Your refusal to acknowledge your position of great wealth and privilege speaks volumes. Now it's great wealth and privilege... By tomorrow I will have the all the riches of the world... John

dbark -> RE: Colorado Lawmaker Calls Alien Workers "Illiterate Peasants" (5/1/2008 9:30:59 PM)
quote: No it doesn't since I firmly believe that whatever favor God's shows me is not merited because of me... So no, it doesn't apply at all... Keep tying but I will not deny that God has blessed me... I might as well be denying Him if I do so... Well, we disagree on what that means, but since it is not the topic here I'll drop it. Maybe we'll find another time to discuss it. quote: Now it's great wealth and privilege... By tomorrow I will have the all the riches of the world... Not to mention that tomorrow you'll still be denying that your wealth is even above average. I can't believe it's a problem for you to acknowledge. It's undeniable - why not do a little search on the internet and see what comes up when you compare your salary and freedoms against what the rest of the world has.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Colorado Lawmaker Calls Alien Workers "Illiterate Peasants" (5/1/2008 9:36:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dbark quote: No it doesn't since I firmly believe that whatever favor God's shows me is not merited because of me... So no, it doesn't apply at all... Keep tying but I will not deny that God has blessed me... I might as well be denying Him if I do so... Well, we disagree on what that means, but since it is not the topic here I'll drop it. Maybe we'll find another time to discuss it. quote: Now it's great wealth and privilege... By tomorrow I will have the all the riches of the world... Not to mention that tomorrow you'll still be denying that your wealth is even above average. I can't believe it's a problem for you to acknowledge. It's undeniable - why not do a little search on the internet and see what comes up when you compare your salary and freedoms against what the rest of the world has. It's not about denying the "rich and privilege" label, but your view of it, your entire view of it... John

dbark -> RE: Colorado Lawmaker Calls Alien Workers "Illiterate Peasants" (5/1/2008 9:58:44 PM)
quote: It's not about denying the "rich and privilege" label, but your view of it, your entire view of it... You'll have to forgive me if I have a hard time accepting that. [sm=shakinghead.gif] This whole line of conversation started when you questioned my labeling Americans as rich and privileged - there is no possible spin you can put on that to deny it. Feel free to continue living in denial about that, however, if it makes you happier.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Colorado Lawmaker Calls Alien Workers "Illiterate Peasants" (5/1/2008 11:29:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dbark quote: It's not about denying the "rich and privilege" label, but your view of it, your entire view of it... You'll have to forgive me if I have a hard time accepting that. [sm=shakinghead.gif] This whole line of conversation started when you questioned my labeling Americans as rich and privileged - there is no possible spin you can put on that to deny it. Feel free to continue living in denial about that, however, if it makes you happier. You can believe whatever you wish... You can believe that God blessing is the same as the rain falling on everyone... And you can believe that someone believing that God has blessed them is something wrong... Me... I am not going to beat myself up for the situation that God has placed me in... John

dbark -> RE: Colorado Lawmaker Calls Alien Workers "Illiterate Peasants" (5/1/2008 11:36:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe You can believe whatever you wish... You can believe that God blessing is the same as the rain falling on everyone... And you can believe that someone believing that God has blessed them is something wrong... Me... I am not going to beat myself up for the situation that God has placed me in... John Fine, no problem ... continue to believe that, but the whole point of the conversation isn't supposed to be about how you and I have it good, but how others have it bad and how we as Christians should be doing what we can to help equalize that. Jesus spent so much time preaching about helping the poor and oppressed, I can't help but thinking he meant for us to try to do something about it rather than being primarily focused on protecting our own positions.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Colorado Lawmaker Calls Alien Workers "Illiterate Peasants" (5/2/2008 12:17:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dbark Fine, no problem ... continue to believe that, but the whole point of the conversation isn't supposed to be about how you and I have it good, but how others have it bad and how we as Christians should be doing what we can to help equalize that. Jesus spent so much time preaching about helping the poor and oppressed, I can't help but thinking he meant for us to try to do something about it rather than being primarily focused on protecting our own positions. I will continue to believe that... I have no idea your primary focus is on protecting our own position. It's not mine... I just live the life the God has ordained for me... It's in His hands... Maybe that's why I don't wring my hands daily over the plight of the world... I deal with those God has placed in my life and live day to day in Christ to the best of my God given abilities... John

mapachito13 -> RE: Colorado Lawmaker Calls Alien Workers "Illiterate Peasants" (5/2/2008 7:15:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dbark quote: It's not about denying the "rich and privilege" label, but your view of it, your entire view of it... You'll have to forgive me if I have a hard time accepting that. [sm=shakinghead.gif] This whole line of conversation started when you questioned my labeling Americans as rich and privileged - there is no possible spin you can put on that to deny it. Feel free to continue living in denial about that, however, if it makes you happier. Whether you call it "rich and priveleged" or "blessed" the US AND Canada enjoy a higher standard of living than many in this world. I don't think I've ever see someone living in a cardboard house in either country like I have seen in Mexico. But then again the US does have its share of homeless.

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