quote:

But really, if I thought all Christians were ninnies I probably wouldn't come here. Many atheists do believe that, but it really is an unfortunate stereotypes. Delusional maybe, but certainly not stupid. I suppose that I didn't explain my theory very well. Man's ego comes in to play with the Western Religions because people want to believe that they are the reason for the universe and that it was all created for them to rule. Humans have a need to be special, and separate from the rest of the animal kingdom. And we also have a need to explain things we do not understand.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CalRed

When any atheist or evolutionist can answer this question, then maybe someone will listen. Until then, it's all just stupidity!

How did it all begin?

quote:

What the neither the atheist nor the evolutionist will ever do is make a leap from that uncertainity to (and I'll select from an array of theisms here) demand that contraception not be used; or to oppose abortion; or to believe that man was created from a clot of blood; or that Xenu abducted aliens trillions of years ago and planted them in volcanoes on earth; or believe that God promised them a patch of desert on the Mediterranean coast; or believe that failing to rest one day in seven is a sin worthy of death; or fly planes into skyscrapers in the belief that the creator of universe wants them to do that; or believe that one of the creators of the universe takes the form of an elephant; or decree that shaving is sinful; or grant men far superior divorce rights to women... the list goes on.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud
Actually, these are a few of Dawkins weakest arguments;

quote:


evolution doesn’t at all explain 90% of life on earth. Indeed, most of the major forms of life appeared during the Cambrian explosion, and evolution fails to explain that all together. Indeed, evolution is best at explaining the smaller changes we see within established forms, but not how those forms got there to begin with. And of course, naturalism absolutely fails to explain the origin of life all together.

Combine that with the utter failure to explain the origin of the universe, the failure to explain self-awareness and the moral and spiritual aspects of humanity, and naturalism leaves most of the major concerns of humanity completely unanswered.

quote:


And I find it interesting that Dawkins finds God, whom he assumes to be complex (despite the fact that most theists claim Him to be essentially simple) to be ‘improbable’ but he considers the multiverse, which is an infinite collection of universes being created and destroyed, and obviously extremely complex, to be likely.

quote:


Dawkins is no longer a scientist, and a very, very poor philosopher.

quote:


So every atheist is forced to have as much faith as the most devout Christian, without any of the explanatory benefits.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

quote:

What the neither the atheist nor the evolutionist will ever do is make a leap from that uncertainity to (and I'll select from an array of theisms here) demand that contraception not be used; or to oppose abortion; or to believe that man was created from a clot of blood; or that Xenu abducted aliens trillions of years ago and planted them in volcanoes on earth; or believe that God promised them a patch of desert on the Mediterranean coast; or believe that failing to rest one day in seven is a sin worthy of death; or fly planes into skyscrapers in the belief that the creator of universe wants them to do that; or believe that one of the creators of the universe takes the form of an elephant; or decree that shaving is sinful; or grant men far superior divorce rights to women... the list goes on.

Well, first off neither atheism nor evolution prevents one from believing in Xenu or some alien overlord like him.

Secondly, while an atheistic/evolutionist (interesting that you associate them that way) might not succumb to those particular flaws, they might very well decide to sterilize and or eliminate millions of people in an effort to better humanity, or subjugate millions of people to murderous totalitarian regimes in an effort to create economic and social equality, or systematically eradicate cultures and spiritual traditions in an effort to promote rationalism, leading to general despair.

Come to think of it, the predominance of atheist ideologies in the late 20th century was probably more deadly than anything that had come before, or since.

People are sinful, and atheism doesn't change that reality in the least.

quote:

Agreed. And let me state now that I agree with a recent post I saw commending you (Jhud) for engaging with the theory of evolution, rather than just invoking scripture. I remain bothered by the fact that, in my estimation, your objection to evolution is grounded first in Christianity, and second in examining the theory from an explicitly Christian viewpoint - this is more a criticism of widely used challenges to evolution than yours personally. My guess is that you were a Christian first and a skeptic of evolution second - based on the fact that you were raised in America (I presume...) and are likely to have encountered Christianity before Darwin's theory. But nonetheless...

quote:

I'll respond the points I feel best able to answer (I'm no expert on the Cambrian explosion (though scientists who are entirely confident that the Cambrian is fully compatible with the theory of evolution are experts on this)).

quote:

The origin of the universe is indeed unexplained. But before the work of astronomers and physicists, our best understand of the universe was - in regions were Christianity was prevalent - that God created the whole lot in 6 days. A literal reading of Genesis is demonstrably wrong. So however weak science's understanding of the origin of the universe is, it's quite a bit better - and less replete with errors - than the accounts given in the Koran and the Old Testament.

quote:

And further, our uncertainity is surely as lousy a case as any for making moral demands of others - i.e., imposing religion, or even living by it.

quote:

Morality is debated too often on these boards, and I don't think I'd add anything by repeating all of the humanist arguments here. Suffice it to say that a wealth of evidence suggests that the same moral standards are to be found among believers, non-believers and remote cultures lacking a concept of God.

quote:

I'm not sure Dawkins states that a multiverse is likely... but he acknowledges the astrophysical theory that an evolved multiverse would have the capacity to be complex, being as it is evolved from simplicity. But I'm not sure either of us are sufficiently qualified to comment on this further.

quote:

Come on... firstly, I don't think Dawkins makes any pretension to philosophical expertise, and to dismiss him as 'no longer a scientist', despite his formidable body of work on biology and zoology, is as sweeping and naive as it is misguided and just plain wrong.

quote:

No. Atheism is not a faith, and nor does it require faith. It is, at heart, a rejection of claims made by faith - i.e. beliefs held because of a lack of evidence. Schools of thought enabled by atheism (e.g. evolutionism) do have explanatory power. And I repeat my point that the time of Christianity - or any religion - representing our best understanding and explanation for the origin or the universe or the existence of mankind has long since passed.

quote:

Quick response to this one - my reply just now to your other post is more thorough:

- I only associated atheism and evolution as the question I was answering did exactly this (see a post above - can't remember who posted it)

quote:

- Atheism is not, as is widely argued, responsible for the crimes of, e.g., Stalinism - that was Stalin's utter contempt for humanity, which I don't believe was rooted in his atheism. He was undeniably an atheist, and his misdeeds are a grotesquely ugly blot on the rich tradition of secularism.

quote:

Hitler, on the other hand, and his Nazi regime were allies of the Catholic church - but I wouldn't go as far to say that his genocide against the Jews was rooted in Christianity. Nonetheless, he was no atheist. I could now list the crimes of the church that have had distastrous consequences (in terms of loss of life) that were rooted directly in religion - some of which continue to this day - but this argument has been had a thousand times, so I'll stop here. Feel free to reply, but I'm personally not intent on pressing this matter any further.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedcoatMello

lol OldMethuselah... Alternate universe indeed. My thesis is going to be on how to use statistical analysis on music so I can combine music theory and mathematics.

But really, if I thought all Christians were ninnies I probably wouldn't come here. Many atheists do believe that, but it really is an unfortunate stereotypes. Delusional maybe, but certainly not stupid. I suppose that I didn't explain my theory very well. Man's ego comes in to play with the Western Religions because people want to believe that they are the reason for the universe and that it was all created for them to rule. Humans have a need to be special, and separate from the rest of the animal kingdom. And we also have a need to explain things we do not understand.

Anyways, I don't really care what people choose to use to explain those things that we don't fully understand, as long as it doesn't hinder the beliefs of others. I come here more to understand what the "other side" thinks than to argue my point of view. As a weak atheist, I'm very much an agnostic.

Perhaps my resources on Christianity were not the best, as you say. I've never heard of Ravi Zacharias, but have read works by Josh McDowell, Gary Habermas and Lee Strobel and found them wanting. They never used an alternate hypothesis and ignored evidence that did not support their beliefs in my opinion.

Yes, I have seen atheist arguments use those techniques that you have stated. However, Christians also use those techniques. Strawman arguments and circular logic are also used by both groups

quote:

Christians also use those techniques. Strawman arguments and circular logic are also used by both groups

quote:

but have read works by Josh McDowell, Gary Habermas and Lee Strobel and found them wanting

quote:

No. Atheism is not a faith, and nor does it require faith. It is, at heart, a rejection of claims made by faith - i.e. beliefs held because of a lack of evidence. Schools of thought enabled by atheism (e.g. evolutionism) do have explanatory power.

quote:

ORIGINAL: atheistinpeace



To address your last point, I feel that it's not so much an attack on Christianity - science is far more concerned with the pursuit of truth than discrediting religion.



AiP

quote:

ORIGINAL: atheistinpeace



Nonetheless, interesting arguments suggest that the existence of a God is highly improbable - this is the closest science can tread to showing there is no God. Dawkins's one is the '747 Gambit' (which I won't describe here in detail), which simply shows that, given that all complexity we observe has evolved from simplicity, and that a god is necessarily complex, it's highly improbable that a complex God figure can exist without roots in simplicity (which runs counter to the nature of a hypothesised God; further, there is no evidence of the roots of a simple God).


AiP

quote:

ORIGINAL: atheistinpeace

quote:

The origin of the universe is indeed unexplained. But before the work of astronomers and physicists, our best understand of the universe was - in regions were Christianity was prevalent - that God created the whole lot in 6 days. A literal reading of Genesis is demonstrably wrong. So however weak science's understanding of the origin of the universe is, it's quite a bit better - and less replete with errors - than the accounts given in the Koran and the Old Testament.

Where are the errors that have been found in the OT, and who supposedly found them. I hope it wasn't another scientist. Because we know they can only speak truth. Why is it that we are excepting the words of scientists about things they are trying to prove, which happened thousands of years ago. They weren't there, we can't see these things happen, they can;t figure out how they happen, but they do have their theories, and they must be right since they got a $1000000 grant.

quote:

And further, our uncertainity is surely as lousy a case as any for making moral demands of others - i.e., imposing religion, or even living by it.

We don't impose our religion, hey, most of us don't even practice it. There are many so called Christians like the 2 dopes running for president, who claim to be Christian, but really aren't. But I pose this question, say there is no God, but we actually all lived a Christian life anyway. Wouldn't that inherently make this world a better place. If we all practiced the Ten Commandments, and lived accordingly. In the least this would be a better world. When we stop making moral demands of others, I am afraid we will really see what man is capable of.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
Dawkins 747 gambit where he is poking fun at Hoyles fallacy is ridiculous. Note how the title of the 4th chapter in his book is "Why there almost certainly is no God". Almost, almost, come on man. Is that not preposterous. Why didn't he just say "come buy my book and i will be your friend". This is just 1 of many supposed reasons for not believing in God. One more attempt to discredit the God of creation so men can sleep at night. Over the years, they have come and they have gone, but not one of these morons has actually given us proof that there is no God. They still attempt to try to explain it away, but they can not explain the unexplainable.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
Lets go back billions of years and watch as out of the primordial ooze steps Lucy, and next to her is the walking banana and the talking fish. Now fast forward to when the banana stops walking and Lucy catches it and eats it and gets scolded by the talking fish. Fast forward again and now the fish does not talk, but gets eaten by the woman formerly known as Lucy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
This is my new theory on how life began.

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

quote:


Be honest on this one:
If you were born in a non-Christian country, or to not Christian parents, would you not make entirely different claims about the origins of life or the universe?

Apologies if the tone of this post is harsh, but there are some gross inaccuracies in your post that needed addressing.

AiP

quote:

ORIGINAL: atheistinpeace

quote:

- Dawkins says there is 'almost certainly no God' because he is intellectually honest. He cannot prove this is no God - no one can prove there is/isn't a god/gods - so he's just freely admitting that. What's wrong with that?

I have a problem with that because there is no such thing as an almost certainty. You are either certain, or you are not. If you are not, don't make claims on your uncertainty.

quote:

- Why do you call atheists morons? Proper discourse has no place for the ad hominem.

Again, going back to the fact that they make claims on other claims, to none of which can be proven. They talk with their egos, to get their names in the journals, and I could care less. If you have no proof, don't make claims.

quote:

- Scientists are able to explain the universe as we know it without the need for a God hypothesis. Further, they often demonstrate why the conditions required for the existence of a God are extremely unlikely to have arisen. Above all though - and I keep having to make this point - atheism is, by and large, a rejection of religion, rather than an assertion that God does not exist. I don't understand why the use of modern science to question theories formed in an illiterate Middle East over 2000 years ago attract so much derision from you.

Really. What about the universe has been explained regarding its beginning, how it was created, why there is no God, and what in the world are we even doing here. Again, facts please, not theses, or theories, or bright ideas, that have never been proven.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
Lets go back billions of years and watch as out of the primordial ooze steps Lucy, and next to her is the walking banana and the talking fish. Now fast forward to when the banana stops walking and Lucy catches it and eats it and gets scolded by the talking fish. Fast forward again and now the fish does not talk, but gets eaten by the woman formerly known as Lucy.

quote:

This is the depressing bit. Do you honestly believe that this is what evolutionists claim?

No. But as stupid as this sounded to you, is exactly how stupid evolution and the idea behind it sounds to me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
This is my new theory on how life began.

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

quote:

Be honest on this one:
If you were born in a non-Christian country, or to not Christian parents, would you not make entirely different claims about the origins of life or the universe?

To be honest I can not answer hypothetical questions. But so you know, I was not born to Christian parents. At least at that time. My mother actually started as a Jehovah's witness, when I was a child, later becoming a Christian. My father has had, and does not want to have anything to do with religion. The fact is, I was born in a Christian country(or so we claim to be), I was exposed to the catholic church as a child, and I have always believed in something bigger than us. There is a reason we are here. To love God is that reason.

quote:

Apologies if the tone of this post is harsh, but there are some gross inaccuracies in your post that needed addressing.

This was not harsh, and I am cool with you asking. I actually expected you to tear me apart with science, but you didn't do that, and I respect that. You almost certainly(HAHA) know more about the evolution argument than I do, and I may have come off as dududumb, but I am not. I just get a little emotional regarding this topic.

My main quarrel with what you have to say, is that you are on a Christian sight, and what you say may cause someone who is searching to be lead astray. I understand that you my atheist friend are those we Christians need to reach, even if you say there is no chance you will ever turn back. But I can almost certainly say, there is always a chance. I did not mean to call you a moron, and hope you didn't take it that way. Take care and God bless.

quote:

Its pride.

Religion is seen as the opiate of the masses by the intellectual elite. God's a farity tale for people who can't make good lives for themselves. Every scientific discovery that might support their pride just reinforce their egos.