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Materialism to what limit? - 4/24/2008 6:07:25 AM
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louischaise
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I am perplexed by certain people in my church because of their obsession with branded handbags. I know a few ladies in church who have perhaps 20 odd Chanel, LV and what not handbags. These bags cost thousands of dollars. The most extreme I have come across is one lady who has 8 $20,000 bags of a certain brand. The 8 bags are the same style, but in different colours. It kinda reminds me of Imelda Marcos and her shoe obsession! These ladies are normal working ladies.
Why do I feel perplexed? I wonder if this is Christian. I am trying hard not to judge them but I think twice when I want to bring a friend to chuch with me. Cos mainly I don't want my friends to think Christians are materialistic. This behaviour has made some of us, especially stay-home mums with one income wonder if we are missing out on something, and some less well-to-do people wonder if they are just out of the group. Also, as you would expect, conversations are often about bags, cars, etc. And recently, one of the ladies (who is married but chose not have children) posted on her blog (which was sent to lots of us in church) that she has a new baby in her family....which is of course her latest branded bag. Included were multiple pix of her new bag in different angels.
I dunno. I feel so confused. I don't know what to do about this situation. If I tell my leaders how I feel about this growing materialistic trend, I wonder what they will say. I guess I'm posting this forum cos I wanna know what other Christians think of this and what they think I can do. I have been feeling really heavy in my heart about this matter.
THanks!
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 4/24/2008 8:46:02 AM
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P31W
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quote:
know a few ladies in church who have perhaps 20 odd Chanel, LV and what not handbags. These bags cost thousands of dollars. The most extreme I have come across is one lady who has 8 $20,000 bags of a certain brand. The 8 bags are the same style, but in different colours. It kinda reminds me of Imelda Marcos and her shoe obsession! These ladies are normal working ladies.
Why are you at church looking at women's handbags?
And why do "you" know they are name brand and what they cost?
I have no idea what a "name brand" handbag looks like, what it cost or if any of my friends own one or 100. I just don't pay attention to that type of stuff.
quote:
I don't know what to do about this situation.
Don't "not invite" friends to church because "you" know alot about purses.
Pray that God will help you focus on "Him" when you enter his house and not what other people may or may not worn or wear.
Another action you can take is to stop looking in stores or magazines at handbags and how much they cost. Shop at walmart.
< Message edited by P31W -- 4/24/2008 8:53:56 AM >
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 4/24/2008 12:00:58 PM
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Liveloved
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My counsel would be for you to get your eyes off the other people and fix them on Jesus as we are told to. What others do can perplex you for a lifetime if you allow it to.
As Jesus and Peter were walking together, Peter asked Jesus "what about him?" referring to John. Jesus' response was "you follow me."
The Lord reveals things to us NOT to criticize others but to intercede for them. So if you see these things in others, pray. And keep your eyes and heart and mind fixed on Jesus! Bless ya! 
Edited to add: Does your own sin perplex you? We are sinners but our sin comes in different colors, shapes, sizes, etc.
< Message edited by Liveloved -- 4/24/2008 12:07:10 PM >
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 4/24/2008 4:48:21 PM
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dbark
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I'm kind of perplexed as to the answers you've received so far. It seems you are being criticized for knowing the cost of name brand handbags. I think it is a legitimate and reasonable concern. Christians, of course, should not judge others, but it is not my impression that you are judging anyone, only observing and being concerned about what appears to be the sin of greed/materialism/overconsumption.
Materialism/overconsumption is a difficult thing to pin down because it is so relative. For a hypothetical example, if I drive a new Audi to church, you may look at me and feel that I am materialistic and not realize that I make $500000/year and donate 2/3 of that to the church and other charities. I may spend vast quantities of my time and money helping others, and for me, a $50000 car is not that great an expenditure. Relatively speaking, if you live in North America, you are a major over-consumer by international standards.
Materialism, I believe, is not simply how much stuff you own, but how tightly you hold those things and how important it is to you that you must have them. As far as I can tell, we were not called to lives of poverty and God has financially blessed some of us more than others, what matters is our hearts. If you feel that these women in your church are sinning because of their possessions, you should take the biblical advice of speaking to them privately and asking them about it.
The ideas that are being presented here by other posts is that it's none of your business and you should only be concerned with yourself. That's not biblical. You should be primarily concerned with your own shortfalls, but that does not exclude us from seeking to help others in love with what we perceive as sins that they may not be aware of. If these women reject the thought of owning these purses as being materialistic, that's their business then. They may simply like having nice things and may be very, very generous in other aspects of their lives.
< Message edited by dbark -- 4/24/2008 5:01:05 PM >
_____________________________
"In seeking wisdom thou art wise; in imagining that thou hast attained it, thou art a fool." ~ Rabbi Ben Azai
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 4/24/2008 5:33:33 PM
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kernsfamily
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Our church happens to be located in a very affluent area of Dallas....so, I see that kind of thing all the time.
And, as most others have said...UNLESS these people are spending their money on handbags, and neglecting tithing/offerings to the church.....and, neglecting other "necessities"....then, what they CHOOSE to buy is their business. How do YOU know exactly how much they make? How much they tithe? How much they give to other things?
Another thing: How do you know those purses are "REAL"? There's one store here in Dallas, that sells purses/accessories that LOOK very expensive (they aren't "counterfeits" or anything), but, look close enough to "the real thing" that many people are left to ASSUME that the owner of the bag paid a fortune for it.....and, yes, even very wealthy people buy these fairly inexpensive handbags that LOOK expensive, as they see that as a good use of their money....
What's a common definition of "materialism": When YOU have more than I do. Or, something better than I have. That's when YOU are labeled and criticized as being "materialistic"....
Relativity is another good point. I dress very well. MUCH better than my father ever would have been able to when I was a kid. My kids have MUCH nicer clothes than my parents could have EVER afforded when I was growing up. Though, when I go to church, the way I dress is "average"......I go to my in-laws church, in another state, and dress the same as I would going to our church, and I would be considered "materialistic" for having such nice clothes....as no one there could ever afford most of the clothes that I wear (my wife regularly takes boxes of clothes our kids have grown out of to their church....and, has the pastor's wife "distribute" them to those "in need".....these people are in tears, for the clothes are nicer than anything they could of ever dreamed having)....
BUT, again, in our church, those are just 'average' clothes...and, something most are wearing.....no big deal.
Another question: What "price point" would be acceptable for a "Christian" to spend on a handbag? a car? or any other product that some people, who can afford it, spend alot on....though, others can barely afford?
quote:
being concerned about what appears to be the sin of greed/materialism/overconsumption.
Hmmm...I have big time issues with this being connected with the sin of "greed"....As Christians, we are expected to work hard, be the "best" that we can be in our professions....and, in many professions, hard work and being "the best" is rewarded financially. Many, MANY wealthy people become wealthy for pursuing excellence...NOT pursuing wealth. As mentioned before, I attend a very "affluent" church....in my men's "small group", this is discussed quite regularly.....as, we are all "successful" in business, but grew up with little or nothing....some of the guys are VERY VERY wealthy....but, while we are all successful, and are doing very "well" financially, none of us 5 guys can ever be rightfully accused of being "materialistic"....
I tend to think of "materialistic" people who buy LUXURY items....and yet, they really cannot afford it....and are deep in debt "keeping up with the Jones"...
< Message edited by kernsfamily -- 4/24/2008 5:41:35 PM >
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 4/24/2008 6:01:27 PM
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dbark
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quote:
Hmmm...I have big time issues with this being connected with the sin of "greed"....As Christians, we are expected to work hard, be the "best" that we can be in our professions....and, in many professions, hard work and being "the best" is rewarded financially. Many, MANY wealthy people become wealthy for pursuing excellence...NOT pursuing wealth.
True enough, but greed is insidious. Many people have fallen into sin thinking they were pursuing something else. Same as materialism and overconsumption, greed may or may not be the case in the scenario being discussed here. I think it's best not to assume that greed isn't present, because I think if I'm honest with myself, it is unfortunately ever-present in my own life in some form or other.
_____________________________
"In seeking wisdom thou art wise; in imagining that thou hast attained it, thou art a fool." ~ Rabbi Ben Azai
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 4/24/2008 8:27:45 PM
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louischaise
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Thanks for all your replies.
Answer some of your questions.
1. Yes I do know the brands of these purses. Why? Because they talk about it to us! They blog about it. And I have worked in the fashion industry.
2. Wouldn't it be worse if they were carrying counterfeit purses? That would be another issue to discuss!
I think it's very true that I cannot assume that these ladies spend all their money on their purses. It has crossed my mind many times that perhaps they give a lot that I am not aware of. But I think my concern here is: with luxury brands which are so often of high quality, is it neccessary to have a whole bunch of them? Hey, I have a couple of nice high-end things myself and I could afford these things, but I don't. Cos I don't find it neccessary or that it is the way that God would want me to spend money. The word "excessive" pops up.
And while I may sound judgemental and like minding others' biz, I feel we need to be aware of what's going around. Just because materialism is outwardly harmless compared to another bad habit, say drug abuse, it doesn't make it less worse. We are a body of Christ, and if my sister may be doing something that is a stumbling block to others, I think it is my biz.
Here's why I feel it is neccessary to be concered:
One of ladies blogged about her bag and sent a mass email about it announcing the arrival of her baby --the bag! I normally would have seen the humour in such an act but it bothered me because here is a person who has consciously chosen NOT to have children though married and has been a leader in church. It bothers me because it is not God's design to have a bag as a baby and it bothers me because I feel it sends a negative message to other young couples or young people in the group that it is OK to be childless and make light of family life. I'm fine if she had just done so with a couple of her friends...but as we all know, blogs are public domain. I feel strongly about this because our church has been working hard to instill the importance of family life and such acts just tear down whatever our leaders have been trying hard to achieve.
Lastly, I feel that yes I need to fix my eyes on Christ. But being a Christian doesn't mean being cut off from the world and not knowing what goes on in it. That's dangerous living, I think. We NEED to be aware of what's going on in order to guard ourselves against it. We can be in the world, but we do not have to be of the world.
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 4/24/2008 9:38:51 PM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3535
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quote:
Christians, of course, should not judge others,
Can't let this pass because it is not true. While we are not in the world judging busines, God's job, we are to rebuke and correct our brethern, in love with reconciliation in mind.
I go to a very affluent church with many new christians. It is not rare at all to see men and women "dressed for effect". Some of this is maturity in the Lord. Some of this is the circles they have been running in and the social circles they are coming from.
Money is a tool God has given us to do whatever purpose He has for that individual. If having nice things seperates you from God, then don't have nice things. Nice things will not make you happy. There is nothing wrong with nice things...as long as you are in control.
Being rich does not create poverty. That...is communism.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 4/24/2008 9:42:39 PM
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Ps103
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Please post a link to a picture of a $20,000 handbag.
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 4/24/2008 9:57:08 PM
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dbark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
quote:
Christians, of course, should not judge others,
Can't let this pass because it is not true. While we are not in the world judging busines, God's job, we are to rebuke and correct our brethern, in love with reconciliation in mind.
You should have let it pass because what I said is correct. We, as Christians, are explicitly told not to judge others. If you read my post it would be clear to you that I wasn't saying that we are not sometimes called to correct or rebuke others - just not judge them. There's a big difference.
_____________________________
"In seeking wisdom thou art wise; in imagining that thou hast attained it, thou art a fool." ~ Rabbi Ben Azai
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 4/24/2008 10:45:06 PM
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GeorgiaNerd
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quote:
Please post a link to a picture of a $20,000 handbag.
I don't know what a $20,000 handbag looks like, but here is a $150,000 handbag. Worth the money, don't you think?
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 4/25/2008 1:43:02 AM
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louischaise
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Haha. That $150,000 bag is funny!
Here is the expensive bag I was referring to. The brand is Hermes. Read more here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkin_Bag
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 4/25/2008 8:11:44 AM
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P31W
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quote:
This behaviour has made some of us, especially stay-home mums with one income wonder if we are missing out on something, and some less well-to-do people wonder if they are just out of the group.
Again I believe the problem is within yourself and your desire to have and be like them. The quote is from your first post.
I don't "hang out" with certain people BECAUSE they have more money then I do and chose to spend it on things that are simply not of interest to me.
I don't "hang out" with certain people because they have much less than I do and I don't want to have to watch every word or deed that I do as doing something from an evil or misguided heart.
And when it comes to blogs.....come on... do people really read those? I don't.
In fact I don't give people an email address for me because I don't want them to send me stuff saying "if you love Jesus you must forward this to 10 friends". Both in my opinion are a waste of "my time'. Maybe not thiers or yours but mine. And that is who I need to be concerned with.
Now there is ONE Christman letter my entire group cannot wait to get. Because it's the "brag" letter. ROFL we simply laugh it off and say "good for them".
Because you are in the "fashion industry" or at one time was I have a feeling that now you somewhat have doubts about your calling or have some regrets. Here is another tell tale sign that you posted
quote:
And recently, one of the ladies (who is married but chose not have children)
Nothing wrong with her choice not to have children. Do you regret your children and choice to stay home with them?
I don't believe you are content to be where you are at this point in your life. Instead of addressing that issue within yourself you are trying to find ways to blame it on others for your own lack of contentment with the choices you have made.
BTW
Women who don't or cannot have children often feel like they are being stabbed in the heart every time a mother talks about her children or shows them pictures or talking about how much they love their kids. I did lose a good friend that way. I had no idea that her "choice" not to have children was really her covering for her husband the fact that "he" was unable to have children and a way to "save his feelings'.
< Message edited by P31W -- 4/25/2008 8:20:32 AM >
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 4/25/2008 10:08:42 AM
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kernsfamily
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quote:
2. Wouldn't it be worse if they were carrying counterfeit purses? That would be another issue to discuss!
I didn't say "counterfeit"...i meant purses that LOOKED expensive, or RESEMBLED expensive brands....but, clearly NOT sold as "fakes" .....just appear that way...
as i mentioned, plenty of women at our church do so, in order to have something that LOOKS nice, but, if it gets stolen, or "messed up" it's no big deal..not be paranoid to take it out with you to go somewhere....plus, different outfits require many different styles of purses...and colors....
Ever "collect" anything"? I collect books on the history of the auto industry. Also, vintage Motown records. Perhaps, there are some people who COLLECT purses. I know some who collect vintage automobiles...certainly more "lavish" than purses!!!
quote:
This behaviour has made some of us, especially stay-home mums with one income wonder if we are missing out on something, and some less well-to-do people wonder if they are just out of the group.
Stay-at-home moms with one income does NOT automatically mean anything. There are plenty of "stay at home moms" at our church who have the "discretionary income" (from their husband's income) to do whatever they want....get whatever they want....and go wherever they want....(kids go to private school, 3 vacations a year to hawaii, cruises and skiing....2-3 lexus cars, house in one of the many gated communities etc..etc....)
Does not necessarily mean "missing out" on anything....
< Message edited by kernsfamily -- 4/25/2008 10:15:52 AM >
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 4/25/2008 10:55:33 AM
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Liveloved
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Which of YOUR sins do you care to talk about? have others talk about? have dealt with?
We can make much of the areas that others struggle with. It's one of the ways we make ourselves feel good, like we're really good little Christians. We must be careful here.
Share and deal with your own sin. Do it in your church, in front of the expensive handbag ladies. You deal with YOUR sin and see if that helps.
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 4/25/2008 11:08:44 AM
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lolosingap
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I think we will all agree to say that materialism is not in the possession itself but in the relationship I have with the possession, how much importance I give to the things I own. The Bible says clearly that we can't serve 2 masters. Materialism is when things are having control on me and not the opposite.
Obviously , materialism is then a sin. If it is a sin , then I MUST help my brother or sister to "fight" against it . I do not agree with some of you that we should not look at them, that it is not our biz and that we should focus on Jesus. YES ,we should focus on Jesus ! But if there is a risk that one person,part of the body of Christ, is in danger then it is my responsibility to help this person. Cancer cells are very tiny at first but are growing very fast !
But how to measure materialism ? Sometimes we are trying to measure it in the amount of money I spend for these things. We are trying to comfort ourselves that it is ok to wear Armani or drive a Lexus as long as I give money to the church. Materialism is not measurable in $ ...
If today I can wear Armani but tomorrow I am fine to wear much cheaper clothes without any regret then it is fine , I think. This shows that I have control on these things. Obviously boasting about things is a begining of materialism ...
Anyway very few Christians are ready to give all their possessions for God's purpose. Let's be honest ! No matter the brand of our clothes , our car . How many of us are ready to give all for God's Kingdom ? We think we are saint because we do not indulge in expensive things but are we ready to give up even on these non-expensive possessions ?
The root of materialism is in the temptations we are facing every day , in advertising , magazines , shops, people. Good luck to those who want to ignore this ! We are living in this world and we have to face it. But let's remember that "God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear"
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 4/25/2008 11:12:30 AM
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Qtman
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One of the wealthiest men I know is my brother-in-law. They live in a very expensive home, drive expensive cars, were expensive clothes, etc. He also gives more in tithes than I make a year. In addition I know for a fact he once paid a preacher's salary for two full years so the preacher could attend school. He just keeps giving and God just keeps giving it back to him. To say that Christian should not wear anything expensive, live in expensive homes, drive expensive cars, or carry expensive handbags is tantamount to saying we should hide the blessings God has bestowed upon us. There is nothing wrong with having and using those things if it is done with the right heart. I agree it should not be done as a bragging right or a I am better than someone else thing. But it is high time we as Christians started showing what God has done for us, both Spiritually and financially, so kids of this world can see there is another way to get these things other than selling drugs or being in a gang. JMHO
< Message edited by Qtman -- 4/25/2008 11:18:45 AM >
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 4/25/2008 11:52:00 AM
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lolosingap
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
To say that Christian should not wear anything expensive, live in expensive homes, drive expensive cars, or carry expensive handbags is tantamount to saying we should hide the blessings God has bestowed upon us. There is nothing wrong with having and using those things if it is done with the right heart. I agree it should not be done as a bragging right or a I am better than someone else thing.
Again , there is nothing wrong with wealth , but as you said it is a matter of the heart. Who is our master ? Money or God ?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
But it is high time we as Christians started showing what God has done for us, both Spiritually and financially, so kids of this world can see there is another way to get these things other than selling drugs or being in a gang. JMHO
I agree that we should not be ashamed of God's blessing. But, is our financial blessing a way of bringing people to Christ ? Sounds a bit like an advertising formula with a missing part : "if you want to be rich ,just Follow Jesus Christ !! " But with every blessing comes what is our response to God. God is good and provides for us but let's not forget our part of the "deal"
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 4/25/2008 11:53:35 AM
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Qtman
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quote:
I agree that we should not be ashamed of God's blessing. But, is our financial blessing a way of bringing people to Christ ? Sounds a bit like an advertising formula with a missing part : "if you want to be rich ,just Follow Jesus Christ !! " But with every blessing comes what is our response to God. God is good and provides for us but let's not forget our part of the "deal"
I thought that was sorta what I said. Meant to anyway.
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 4/25/2008 12:08:48 PM
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kernsfamily
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
quote:
I agree that we should not be ashamed of God's blessing. But, is our financial blessing a way of bringing people to Christ ? Sounds a bit like an advertising formula with a missing part : "if you want to be rich ,just Follow Jesus Christ !! " But with every blessing comes what is our response to God. God is good and provides for us but let's not forget our part of the "deal"
I thought that was sorta what I said. Meant to anyway.
I know what you meant...
How "blessed" by God am I "allowed" to be before people start "judging" me for being "materialistic" and "greedy"?.....(generally, it's when I start being more blessed "financially" more than you....then, the griping begins)
I think I mentioned it in an earlier post, but in most cases like this, the definition of "materialistic" is: When someone has more than I have, or has more of something than I think one should have.
quote:
Again , there is nothing wrong with wealth , but as you said it is a matter of the heart. Who is our master ? Money or God ?
That is what I see lacking here..... a clear, definitive conclusion that these people's hearts are not in the "right place"!....mere "observations" about what they carry on their arm, and what they like to discuss, is not enough to conclude anything. As you do not truly know what is in their hearts....
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 4/25/2008 12:27:00 PM
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Qtman
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quote:
How "blessed" by God am I "allowed" to be before people start "judging" me for being "materialistic" and "greedy"?.....(generally, it's when I start being more blessed "financially" more than you....then, the griping begins)
I'm sorry but maybe I am in the minority here. I do not mean to sound rude so please do not take it that way but I don't care how much someone has. I do not try to keep up with the Jones' nor do I look down on those less fortunate than I am. The circles I run in have people from every means in this life from wealthy to poor. I really don't care what someone has or does not have. I look at the person not their possessions.
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 4/25/2008 12:39:09 PM
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kernsfamily
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
quote:
How "blessed" by God am I "allowed" to be before people start "judging" me for being "materialistic" and "greedy"?.....(generally, it's when I start being more blessed "financially" more than you....then, the griping begins)
I'm sorry but maybe I am in the minority here. I do not mean to sound rude so please do not take it that way but I don't care how much someone has. I do not try to keep up with the Jones' nor do I look down on those less fortunate than I am. The circles I run in have people from every means in this life from wealthy to poor. I really don't care what someone has or does not have. I look at the person not their possessions.
I don't care either....I was actually AGREEING with you....and, was saying that those people who "judge" someone's "materialism" usually start off by using the "definition" I gave of what "materialistic" is....
AND, was openly "wondering" when the "blessings" end....and when the "judgements" of others begins....
again...iam agreeing with YOU 100%....
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 4/25/2008 12:56:38 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 3276
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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materialism follows consumerism
and we as a culture...are consumers
even with church. how many people attend a particular church because they "get" something, not because they can serve the body or minister themselves, but to receive something or have some personal need met.
so it should not be surprising
As for the $20K bag - I know a little about fashion and I don't get the price tags on most designer stuff. And I know even fewer people who actually pay for it when they can get the wannabe version for much less.
Just as a side note...most designers are actually the ones creating the legitimate knock-offs themselves to increase revenues - they use cheaper materials and change the details ever so slightly. They may not be the ones on the street corners of NYC, but theirs are sold in the mall department stores.
I have a Brighton bag that I love and got it "used" for $50.00.
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Religion is about me. Gospel is about Jesus -- Mark Driscoll
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