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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 5/1/2008 10:39:43 AM
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broken2live4him
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Since we are stewards over what God has given us, we are accountable to him as to how we spend our money. If someone chooses to spend their money the way they want, you are not going to be able to stop them. Basically, let them be accountable to God.
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broken2live4him
haggai 2:23
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 5/1/2008 11:58:39 AM
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kvsmm
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First of all, I understand your question. I have had the same problem, but then I watched a minister on TV who put it into perspective for me. He talked about the difference between excess and abundance. Excess is when God blesses you with 5 cars, and you park them in the garage and admire them. Abundance is when God blesses you with 5 cars, but, you drive one, your wife drives one, you give one to your pastor, you give one to one of the missionaries that your church supports, and you give one to the man waiting for the bus in the snow every day.
All of us have certain gifts that the Holy Spirit gives us. Some are meant to teach, some to sing, some to preach, and some, help. My gift is helps, which is why I was miserable until I became a social worker, make way less money, work for a non profit agency, and wake up every day joyful and excited to go work with the poorest of the poor.
Giving is another of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Some people are blessed financially, because God knows that they will give not just the 10% that we all should give, but probably quite a bit more. If you attend a beautiful building for church, someone paid for the land, someone paid all the building fees, someone paid for the actual structure, someone paid for the furnishings, someone paid for all the artwork, and on and on.
Right now, I drive a BMW. I can't afford a BMW, but a friend of mine, who is one of those folks who sponsor 5 missionaries, who just paid for a new gym for our youth group, etc., just got a new car. She gave - that's GAVE me her old one. So I gave my old Honda to someone who didn't have a car at all.
The ladies with the fancy purses should maybe be a little quieter about all that they have, but do you know how they spend the rest of their money? Are they sponsoring a woman going thru drug rehab? Are they funding the new day care center for kids with disabilities? I could never do what I do for people without big givers, who fund most social service programs.
I know it's sometimes our very human nature to see others abundance when we are in need, but I can only tell you that God gives each what they need to build His church, and I don't mean the building. Bring your friends to church. That might just be your gift. I can't remember which disciple it was, it may have been Thomas (I may be wrong), but the only time you ever hear of this person is when they were bringing someone to meet Christ. It was like, "Hey Peter, hey Matthew, hey Luke, come meet this guy." Well, what would have happened to the church if some of the new testament saints were never brought to hear this local preacher?
Well, I have ranted enough. Just remember that 'the body has many members', and maybe these folks have a different part, but all of you serve the same Lord.
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 5/1/2008 12:40:57 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4001
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quote:
ORIGINAL: louischaise
I am perplexed by certain people in my church because of their obsession with branded handbags. I know a few ladies in church who have perhaps 20 odd Chanel, LV and what not handbags. These bags cost thousands of dollars. The most extreme I have come across is one lady who has 8 $20,000 bags of a certain brand. The 8 bags are the same style, but in different colours. It kinda reminds me of Imelda Marcos and her shoe obsession! These ladies are normal working ladies.
Why do I feel perplexed? I wonder if this is Christian. I am trying hard not to judge them but I think twice when I want to bring a friend to chuch with me. Cos mainly I don't want my friends to think Christians are materialistic. This behaviour has made some of us, especially stay-home mums with one income wonder if we are missing out on something, and some less well-to-do people wonder if they are just out of the group. Also, as you would expect, conversations are often about bags, cars, etc. And recently, one of the ladies (who is married but chose not have children) posted on her blog (which was sent to lots of us in church) that she has a new baby in her family....which is of course her latest branded bag. Included were multiple pix of her new bag in different angels.
I dunno. I feel so confused. I don't know what to do about this situation. If I tell my leaders how I feel about this growing materialistic trend, I wonder what they will say. I guess I'm posting this forum cos I wanna know what other Christians think of this and what they think I can do. I have been feeling really heavy in my heart about this matter.
THanks!
I don't think there's need to worry about handbags in your church with TBN and WOF ministers running about. Handbags are the least of our worries.
I personally believe having a $20,000 handbag and debt at the same time is being a terrible steward of your finances. But I also don't go around looking at people's belongings and asking them to justify them in relation to their income. I had some really high-dollar stuff when I was the poorest...came straight from our local thrift stores. 
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 5/1/2008 12:50:06 PM
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zoebob
Posts: 8867
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: land of limbo
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quote:
I'd love to know where you find good quality jeans for less than $20 that won't tear or wear after the first wash or so.
I get Jeans at Walmart for myself for between $10-17 and they last at least a year...and I wear any given pair at least once a week except in the summer. Most probably last me 2 years. My mom handed down a bunch to me that she had worn a while (like a couple years) and then I wore them for another year.
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 5/1/2008 1:54:01 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1815
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quote:
Does it also hurt you to see hungry children and the $500-$1500 computers that you are currently on? Does it also hurt to see hungry children and you have cable tv, cell phones, cars, clothes that are not hand-me-downs, new shoes, haircuts, jewelery, etc.?
Yes, it hurts seeing hungry children. This wealthy wasteful culture hurts to watch while children are starving, does it not hurt you?
I don't know if a $500 pc qualifies as $20,000 purse. I just don't know. I have' nt owned either. My pc was given to me, my sister can take them apart and put them together. She gets them out of the trash, gives the memory and speed.
most of my buying is at Thrifts. you can online and buy 2nd hand at ebay. www.ebay.com
you know a Christian by their fruits, we are told to at least look at their fruits, having 8 $20,000 purses, is not good fruit to me, defending the rich and hoarding my stuff ............
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Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 5/1/2008 2:01:10 PM
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WalkingwithHim2
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I have a car, cell phone, computer, business suits (required for my job), etc. and my kids have a lot of stuff that other kids don't have. The point is having things that others don't have doesn't make me materialistic nor does it mean that I don't hurt for my fellowman who doesn't have food & shelter. On the contrary it makes me want to give more of my time and money to programs that feed & shelter those who do not have.
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Jesus saves the soul not necessarily the brain
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 5/1/2008 2:25:18 PM
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elastic
Posts: 2596
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: NYC
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quote:
I don't know if a $500 pc qualifies as $20,000 purse. I just don't know.
well, i think if you have anything that you don't absolutely need, but you pay money for it, it qualifies...how about makeup? i don't know if that's your actual picture in your avatar tracey, but whoever it is sure does have on make up that isn't a necessity. where i'm from, lipstick is anywhere from $3-10, mascara $7.00, blush/ eyeshadow $5-10, and foundation, etc, etc...and then the earrings. even if you spent .99 cents on them, that's .99cents that could have gone towards feeding the homeless...but instead, it went towards unneccisarily enhancing beauty.
so, if you are spending $20-$30 on makeup, aren't you neglecting to feed someone who is starving? who would gladly take a sandwich over a tube of mascara?
see how ludicrous it is? i myself am a makeup hound. i have lots of it, and hair products, and blow dryers and curlers, etc, etc, etc...these aren't necessities like toilet paper and food, but i have them, and i didn't feel guilt over buying them because i can afford them. i still am able to tithe, and i donate to charities...i also save money. i am a good steward. i don't think you can pick an amount, and because it's an amount that you personally would not choose to spend, say that the person spending said amount is sinning.
i wouldn't spend $20,000 on a purse...but i might spend it on a car. what's the difference? you can get a perfectly good car for under $5,000... it might be used, it might not be as good looking as another car, but it's still a car....if you have the money, and you are being a good steward of your money, while 20,000 for a purse might not be the best choice of how to spend said money, it hardly shows that the person spending that money is sinning.
i've probably spent $20,000 over my lifetime in things i didn't need from dollar stores and eating fast foods. 20,000 little items that you didn't even notice add up over time...what's the difference between that and one big purchase?
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"If character is the measure in this election ... and hope the theme... and change the goal we share, then I ask you to join our cause."
~Sarah Palin
 I Stand with Israel!
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 5/1/2008 2:26:10 PM
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Tinkerbell_
Posts: 6764
Joined: 1/25/2008
From: NeverNeverLand
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
quote:
Does it also hurt you to see hungry children and the $500-$1500 computers that you are currently on? Does it also hurt to see hungry children and you have cable tv, cell phones, cars, clothes that are not hand-me-downs, new shoes, haircuts, jewelery, etc.?
Yes, it hurts seeing hungry children. This wealthy wasteful culture hurts to watch while children are starving, does it not hurt you?
I don't know if a $500 pc qualifies as $20,000 purse. I just don't know. I have' nt owned either. My pc was given to me, my sister can take them apart and put them together. She gets them out of the trash, gives the memory and speed.
most of my buying is at Thrifts. you can online and buy 2nd hand at ebay. www.ebay.com
you know a Christian by their fruits, we are told to at least look at their fruits, having 8 $20,000 purses, is not good fruit to me, defending the rich and hoarding my stuff ............
So if you can have second hand items bought from eBay and thrift stores, who are you to assume that other people aren't doing the exact same thing?
Like I said, I own a lot of expensive items but that doesn't mean a hill of beans because it's no one's business how I acquired them. If you paid $5 or $5,000 for a computer you still own a piece of expensive equipment. Same with cell phones. Most people freaked when my son got a RAZR. They didn't know it was a used one given to him that was in great shape. Not everything is as it seems.
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 5/1/2008 2:26:33 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1815
Joined: 3/30/2008
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quote:
The point is having things that others don't have doesn't make me materialistic nor does it mean that I don't hurt for my fellowman who doesn't have food & shelter. On the contrary it makes me want to give more of my time and money to programs that feed & shelter those who do not have.
?WHO said You were materalistic? AT various times in my life, I have had probaly more than you have right now. that is not what I am trying to say.
Th Op is;
quote:
Why do I feel perplexed? I wonder if this is Christian.
I'm saying yes you can. The Bible. I would talk gentlely, show the verses about riches, the poor and what we as Christians should be doing with our money. Our resources. Our time.
AS a person that has read and studied the Bible, and continues to do so.
I say: I don't see where that can be justified at all. Not 8 $20,000 purses.
That she bought. NOPE. There's no way.
Do a comparision. A study, you'll probaly end up feeling sorry for the very, very rich, like I do, they have their reward. I pray for them. Like I do the very poor.
BUT............I also know that we are to DEFEND the poor. THAT"S in the Bible.
Exo 23:2 Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil; neither shalt thou speak in a cause to decline after many to wrest judgment:
Exo 23:3 Neither shalt thou countenance a poor man in his cause.
Psa 82:3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
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Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 5/1/2008 2:33:54 PM
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WalkingwithHim2
Posts: 2436
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
quote:
Do a comparision. A study, you'll probaly end up feeling sorry for the very, very rich, like I do, they have their reward. I pray for them. Like I do the very poor.
So are you saying that very, very rich people do not care about others or that just because someone is very, very poor that they are in some manner better?
_____________________________
Jesus saves the soul not necessarily the brain
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 5/1/2008 2:46:33 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1815
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quote:
So are you saying that very, very rich people do not care about others or that just because someone is very, very poor that they are in some manner better?
Ok, whew let's do a mini-study? ok. when I type in rich in esword Bible(online Bible)
Job 34:19 How much less to him that accepteth not the persons of princes, nor regardeth the rich more than the poor? for they all are the work of his hands.
1Ti 6:18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
I never said anyone was better, I said let's defend the poor. THERE is no defense for 8 $20,000 purses.
this is my defending the poor
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 5/1/2008 2:51:13 PM
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WalkingwithHim2
Posts: 2436
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
quote:
So are you saying that very, very rich people do not care about others or that just because someone is very, very poor that they are in some manner better?
Ok, whew let's do a mini-study? ok. when I type in rich in esword Bible(online Bible)
Job 34:19 How much less to him that accepteth not the persons of princes, nor regardeth the rich more than the poor? for they all are the work of his hands.
1Ti 6:18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
I never said anyone was better, I said let's defend the poor. THERE is no defense for 8 $20,000 purses.
this is my defending the poor
I wouldn't buy 8 $20k purses because I don't have the money but like another poster has said what if that lady gives more than 160k to charities?
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Jesus saves the soul not necessarily the brain
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 5/1/2008 3:16:38 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1815
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quote:
I wouldn't buy 8 $20k purses because I don't have the money but like another poster has said what if that lady gives more than 160k to charities?
I can defend 160k to Charity I can't defend $20,000 purses.
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 5/1/2008 3:18:05 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1815
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quote:
I don't know if that's your actual picture in your avatar tracey,
It's not, it's an avatar, I don't wear makeup , so I kinda glossed over the post.
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 5/1/2008 3:18:41 PM
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OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1063
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are there scripture to indicate what percentage of income/wealth must be given to the poor?
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there's life in a pit.
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 5/1/2008 3:23:38 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1815
Joined: 3/30/2008
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quote:
So if you can have second hand items bought from eBay and thrift stores, who are you to assume that other people aren't doing the exact same thing? where did I assume that?
quote:
Like I said, I own a lot of expensive items but that doesn't mean a hill of beans because it's no one's business how I acquired them.
I tracy did not ask where you aqcuried anything. It is none of my business, you are posting it
quote:
If you paid $5 or $5,000 for a computer you still own a piece of expensive equipment.
Ok, you missed the post, I did'nt pay anything for it. MY SISTER gave it to me. I don't think anyone would pay for a pc that is 10 years old. broken cd drive, you know someone?
quote:
Same with cell phones. Most people freaked when my son got a RAZR. They didn't know it was a used one given to him that was in great shape. Not everything is as it seems.
It seems to me that people are not defending the poor, I want to simply fill in that gap.
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 5/1/2008 3:25:11 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1815
Joined: 3/30/2008
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quote:
It's not, it's an avatar, I don't wear makeup , so I kinda glossed over the post.
i guess you are the one person in the world who gives every extra dime to charity then. my bad.
I said it's an avatar, where did you come up with I give every dime....... 
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Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 5/1/2008 3:29:59 PM
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elastic
Posts: 2596
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: NYC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
quote:
It's not, it's an avatar, I don't wear makeup , so I kinda glossed over the post.
i guess you are the one person in the world who gives every extra dime to charity then. my bad.
I said it's an avatar, where did you come up with I give every dime.......
well, you 'glossed over' my other post. if you would have read into it, you could have replaced "make up" with any other object, thing, desire, etc that is extra in our lives. but you said it didnt' pertain to you, therefore, i must conclude that you either don't have any extra money, or you give everything that is extra to the poor.
for example, do you wear earrings? own a watch that you purchased? own a car that you purchased? buy chap stick? own a bottle of lotion or hair products? any of this could be construed as something that 'rich' people do because to some folks, these are luxury items. that was my point.
< Message edited by elastic -- 5/1/2008 3:36:32 PM >
_____________________________
"If character is the measure in this election ... and hope the theme... and change the goal we share, then I ask you to join our cause."
~Sarah Palin
I Stand with Israel!
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 5/1/2008 3:37:49 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1815
Joined: 3/30/2008
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quote:
well, you 'glossed over' my other post. if you would have read into it, you could have replaced "make up" with any other object, thing, desire, etc that is extra in our lives. but you said it didnt' pertain to you, therefore, i must conclude that you either don't have any extra money, or you give everything that is extra to the poor.
you keep twisting it, I said I don't wear makeup , so I glossed over, I did'nt never it did'nt pertain to ME. You can conclude what you want.
What we have does not stop the verse, that as Christian we are to defend the poor. When I see 8 $20,000 purses, I see an opportunity to defend the poor, because I know a lot of poor could have benefitted from what? $160,000?
I want people simply to think about the poor! Especially when you see those purses!
quote:
for example, do you wear earrings? own a watch that you purchased? own a car that you purchased? buy chap stick? own a bottle of lotion or hair products? any of this could be construed as something that 'rich' people do because to some folks, these are luxury items. that was my point.
So a tube of chap stick worth $1.69 is the same as a $20,000 purse?
< Message edited by tracydolls -- 5/1/2008 3:44:04 PM >
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 5/1/2008 3:46:25 PM
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Tinkerbell_
Posts: 6764
Joined: 1/25/2008
From: NeverNeverLand
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
Ok, you missed the post, I did'nt pay anything for it. MY SISTER gave it to me. I don't think anyone would pay for a pc that is 10 years old. broken cd drive, you know someone?
I'm not missing the point. No one knows how you acquire your possessions, nor do you know how anyone else acquired theres. To say that we are "rich" and not defending the "poor" is a judgement call.
Tell me how you define poor? The impoverished in third world countries? The poor people living on the streets in the city? The single college students barely able to eat because they have expensive tuition and books to pay for? The single mum's living paycheck to paycheck trying to make ends meet and feed her children? What are the poor to you?
Because every group I mentioned, except perhaps the people in third world countries, looks rich in SOMEONE'S eyes. When you can completely define the "rich" vs. the "poor" then perhaps I'll understand.
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 5/1/2008 3:50:54 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 4131
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: The higher lowcountry
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I get defending the poor - but I assume we all know that Psalm 82 in the context of God and government and not necessarily for us to use in an attack against the rich.
I am with you about defending the poor...it's a no brainer.
But we can't defend the poor by condemning people who are rich. We don't sin against one group of people in order to defend another group of people.
Defending the poor is about protecting them legally, they are equal in status, equal rights, etc. and this particular country is set up very well for that.
Other countries are not and those who are so led, contribute to those people with donations of varying degrees.
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 5/1/2008 3:51:26 PM
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OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1063
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the thing is we are to be stewards of our own money. it really makes no sense to look at someone else and project stewardship. we mind our own money, our own business.
if you can't look at a brother and point to clearly defined sin, then we can't point without sinning.
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there's life in a pit.
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RE: Materialism to what limit? - 5/1/2008 3:51:50 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1815
Joined: 3/30/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
I'm not missing the point. No one knows how you acquire your possessions, nor do you know how anyone else acquired theres. To say that we are "rich" and not defending the "poor" is a judgement call.
who's we?
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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