RE: Materialism to what limit? (Full Version)

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SonInMe1 -> RE: Materialism to what limit? (5/6/2008 9:13:49 PM)

Jealousy.

Class envy.

Liberalism 101

Its what Hitler did. He made the jews into the reason why everything was wrong in Germany and he then had a licence to do to the jews whatever he wanted to do. He made an enemy and then rallied the country against the enemy and garnered power for himself.

Now its the rich. We tax them to death. We blame them for poverty. We misquote scripture to make them evil. We excuse our own situations because who would want to succeed if you become evil?



car2ner -> RE: Materialism to what limit? (5/7/2008 5:58:48 AM)

I do agree, many are well off because they earned the money and so many others are ready and willing to say, "you have plenty and let me tell you what to do with your excess"> [:@]

But that really isn't the topic. The rich are just more accountable for the resources God has blessed them with. Far be if from me to say God wouldn't call someone to spend tons-o-money on any purse, ugly or jewel encrusted. I doubt He would, though.

When it comes down to regular purchases, we have no clue how God would have the rich or poor use their resources, except to be generous when He calls for it.



henny -> RE: Materialism to what limit? (5/7/2008 8:39:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SonInMe1

quote:

I don't think that the wealthy in general can be blamed for poverty, but poverty is a necessary side effect of wealth -especially when the most money is controlled by the least amount of people.


marxism

quote:

it's just how capitalism tends to work.


Capitalism proves that those who start out poor can improve themselves. Many of the rich people in this world started out poor and many who started out rich lost it. Its about ability...and certainly blessings.

My having money does not make anyone else poor. Having money does not mean you stole it from the everyday blue collar guy. That...is quintisential marxism.


I never suggested it's a matter of theft or purposely making someone poor. Just that it is impossible for everyone to be wealthy, no matter how hard everyone works. If there is to be immense wealth, there will always have to be poverty. If a small percentage of people control a disproportionately large amount of wealth, this obviously leaves less to go around for everyone else. If you look at basically any large corporation in the USA (something like Walmart, for example), for it to function it's going to need to have people willing to work for near minimum wage as well as cheap labor to manufacture its products. Yes, if you start out working for minimum wage you can always work your way up, but in order to do this someone else will have to fill your minimum wage position once you are gone, just as there are fewer positions available the higher you go.

Acknowledging this isn't "marxism," nor is it blaming the rich for poverty, it's just basic economics. If there is to be immense wealth, there will always have to be poverty along with it.



henny -> RE: Materialism to what limit? (5/7/2008 8:54:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SonInMe1

Its what Hitler did. He made the jews into the reason why everything was wrong in Germany and he then had a licence to do to the jews whatever he wanted to do. He made an enemy and then rallied the country against the enemy and garnered power for himself.

Now its the rich. We tax them to death. We blame them for poverty. We misquote scripture to make them evil. We excuse our own situations because who would want to succeed if you become evil?


I really wish people would quit with the Hitler comparisons, as they are rarely warranted historically speaking, and rather are just crass rhetorical ploys that end up doing a disservice to history by lessening and cheapening the evil that Hitler actually did.

Liberals advocating a progressive tax scale is in no way comparable to the holocaust, suggesting as much is offensive on about 50 different levels (and I don't mean just to liberals, but to people who were actually affected by the holocaust) and shows a complete ignorance of history.

It seems like you can't turn around on this site without someone making a comparison to the holocaust where it's completely not warranted (I thought we were going to ban Nazi comparisons. Whatever happened to that?)



tracydolls -> RE: Materialism to what limit? (5/7/2008 9:13:23 AM)

quote:

And, is it at that point, they go from being the "provider" for the family.....to being judged as "greedy"?



when they buy 8 $20,000 purses

quote:

Class envy.

Liberalism 101

Its what Hitler did. He made the jews into the reason why everything was wrong in Germany and he then had a licence to do to the jews whatever he wanted to do. He made an enemy and then rallied the country against the enemy and garnered power for himself.




The Jews had NOT enslaved the Germans, different history here in US.



P31W -> RE: Materialism to what limit? (5/7/2008 11:37:29 AM)

quote:

when they buy 8 $20,000 purses


What about 8 - $2.00 purses? Is that greedy?


quote:

The rich are just more accountable for the resources God has blessed them with.


Some poor people "should" be rich but they are lazy or waste what God does or has in the past blessed them with. Those people too are going to be held accountable for being wasteful and greedy even though they are not rich.



P31W -> RE: Materialism to what limit? (5/7/2008 11:52:54 AM)

quote:

Hmmmm....perhaps the OP needs to define "working ladies?"


Ps103!!!! You still got it honey!!!! [:D][:D][:D] You still have the ability to make coffee come out of my nose!!! LOL

quote:

Is the actual topic of this thread " how much is too much?" or is it how to react to a person who seems to be getting her worth from possessions?

How much is too much? I'm not touching that one, it is all relative. And I think we all know that. Would the young mother in Sub-Sahara Africa dying of HIV while she watches her children starve understand spending $20.00 on a "handbag" from Wal-Mart?

However, it does sadden me that we can have eight pages of posts on this topic and not one person suggest that the only "Christian" response to those who seem to be caught up in materialism is love and mercy.

"Judging" happens when we stand to the side and throw stones. The love of Christ is displayed when we take the time to get to know someone/build a relationship with them. If the OP, had taken the time to befriend this woman she might now know if she really need to be "confronted in love" or she needed to be introduced to the love of Christ in which she could find her worth, instead of in meaningless possessions.

Just for the record, I have lots of shoes, handbags and "stuff" and while I understand that all of us in America are "rich"by the world's standards, I fully admit that my dh and I are wealthy by American standards.



Good post Deb. I see it a little differant.

I think the real problem is not with the "working women" but with the OP. I think this group of women were her friends. She chose to marry and be a SAHM. Now that she is "living" that lifestyle she chose....she is discovering that it's not as much fun as the "daydreaming" about it was. Her old friends appear to be having "more fun" in life than she is and she is upset with them.

If I were her Sunday School teacher and she came to me I would probably turn the conversation back on her. I would try to help her see if she "really" wants to be a SAHM. Then we could go from there.

I think she has a case of the SAHM blues and it's easier to look at others to blame for her depression rather than doing the self examination required to find out what is really going on within.



upNORTder -> RE: Materialism to what limit? (5/7/2008 12:10:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: P31W



quote:

The rich are just more accountable for the resources God has blessed them with.


Some poor people "should" be rich but they are lazy or waste what God does or has in the past blessed them with. Those people too are going to be held accountable for being wasteful and greedy even though they are not rich.




Very often God has other plans for those who " 'should' be rich". God puts you wherever He wants to. Some He burdens with poverty, some He burdens with wealth. Money and possessions in this world are meaningless in the long run except for what we have done with what we have been given. When we have either died or been raptured from here, these possessions will be of no use for us and for some they will be like a millstone around their necks when they are standing before the Lord God Almighty. We are only here for a short lifetime and then on to eternal life where God will (still) provide all that we need. We wont worry about possesions in the millenium and beyond. No more socialism, no more capitalism. Just the perfect rule of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.



P31W -> RE: Materialism to what limit? (5/7/2008 12:17:29 PM)

quote:

Very often God has other plans for those who " 'should' be rich".


If God has other plans for them then they "should not be rich".

quote:

God puts you wherever He wants to.


God does not force us to obey his will. Some people are poor because they are NOT in God's will for thier life.

Many people in the USA are poor because of their sin.



Ps103 -> RE: Materialism to what limit? (5/7/2008 12:48:08 PM)

quote:

Ps103!!!! You still got it honey!!!! You still have the ability to make coffee come out of my nose!!! LOL


Hey--we're not getting older--we're getitng better![8D]



tracydolls -> RE: Materialism to what limit? (5/7/2008 12:51:26 PM)

quote:

What about 8 - $2.00 purses? Is that greedy?


Yes in my book.

quote:

Some poor people "should" be rich but they are lazy or waste what God does or has in the past blessed them with. Those people too are going to be held accountable for being wasteful and greedy even though they are not rich.


True. the "love of money means some just don't have the money!

what are you debating?

ok skimmed down, I see what you are debating.

Advocating for the rich. Ok.

The rich are blessed also, live a fabulous life, to some they are enviable, some WANT it so bad, they can taste it. kill for it! Sometimes die for it.

The rich will be in heaven, that's true. We won't know who they are in Heaven, I believe.

the rich live in mansions, sometimes several.

the rich have whole collections of cars, stamps, paintings, dolls, horses, everything know to man including men

the rich [8|]

I take joy in the fact that one day it will ALL be over soon.

Those poor babies in Tanzania, Haiti, Ethiopia, Somilia, Mexico, Peru, South Africa, Liberia, South America, China. Iraq, India, etc and the back cotton fields of Missississippi will not have to cry out anymore.

For we know this from reading the Bible. The Lord avenges them!



car2ner -> RE: Materialism to what limit? (5/7/2008 5:09:47 PM)

Sigh.... not buying those purses is not going to save all those poor folk. It may help some if the money was sent to some aid foundation but not all of them. Getting angry at the haves because there are have nots is not the answer.
It will just make you grumpy. It will not feed the poor. It will not get them medicine and housing. It will not stop the rich from buying things. BTW, it is the rich that create jobs... not the poor.

I agree, there always have been the rich and the poor and the middle. There always will be. It is simple economics. 8 20k purses is an indulgence. 8 $2.oo perhaps... how long would a $2.oo purse hold up. I bought a nice wallet at the thrift store for $5. Brand new it would have been alot more. I have used it for a long time now. If someone didn't spend the money to buy it new, decide it didn't fit into their purse (or something) and donate it to the thrift store, I wouldn't have my nice wallet. What was frivolous for them turned out to be a blessing for me. And I in turn will pass on some of my frivolity to others. Just donated a few nice items to the boy scout annual yard sale. Someone will be blessed by my excess and the boy scouts will earn a few dollars for their outting. It is all good.

bottom line: don't get ticked off about it. Just do what God tells you to do. That is all you are responsible for.



tracydolls -> RE: Materialism to what limit? (5/7/2008 5:24:44 PM)

Deu 24:15 At his day thou shalt give him his hire, neither shall the sun go down upon it; for he is poor, and setteth his heart upon it: lest he cry against thee unto the LORD, and it be sin unto thee.

1Sa 2:8 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes,and to make them inherit the throne of glory[: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD'S, and he hath set the world upon them.

Job 5:15 But He saveth the poor from the sword, from their mouth, and from the hand of the mighty.

Psa 109:31 For he shall stand at the right hand of the poor, to save him from those that condemn his soul.

Psa 68:10 Thy congregation hath dwelt therein: thou, O God, hast prepared of thy goodness for the poor.

Psa 72:4 He shall judge the poor of the people, he shall save the children of the needy, and shall break in pieces the oppressor.



WhiteRoseBlessings -> RE: Materialism to what limit? (5/7/2008 5:44:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ps103

Hmmmm....perhaps the OP needs to define "working ladies?"
[sm=icon_smile_yikes.gif]

[sm=purplelaugh.gif][sm=purplelaugh.gif][sm=purplelaugh.gif]



I have been quasi-lurking in this thread; saw where someone had given kudos to Kate for her post causing a monitor spew; so I backtracked to find such post.






quote:

ORIGINAL: P31W

quote:

when they buy 8 $20,000 purses


What about 8 - $2.00 purses? Is that greedy?
THIS is a very good point!




quote:

ORIGINAL: tracydolls

True. the "love of money means some just don't have the money!
The love of money does not mean that some just don't have the money. That doesn't even make sense.



quote:

ORIGINAL: tracydolls

Those poor babies in Tanzania, Haiti, Ethiopia, Somilia, Mexico, Peru, South Africa, Liberia, South America, China. Iraq, India, etc and the back cotton fields of Missississippi will not have to cry out anymore.
How do YOU know who is sending money to starving people and who isn't? How can YOU defame an entire group of people just on what you think know?

I personally know a couple who are extremely wealthy rich beyond anything what I could ever begin to imagine. They drive very nice cars and buy top quality everything; including papertowels (those papertowels fascinate me; they're almost like disposable napkins). They also have started, organized and continue to heavily finance many different missions throughout the United States AND the world; many of those missions involving helping the poor and the hungry. Almost every single day, they give huge sums of money away left and right and don't even bat an eye. They do it prayerfully and joyfully. They also do it anonymously whenever they can get away with it. I know this because I was once a recipient of their anonymous extreme generosity; only I recognized the wife's handwriting on the note. To this day, 6 years later, they've never once even mentioned the envelope of of money (hundreds of dollars) they left at my front door.



These people are my dear, dear friends and they have never held their money over me in any way. They are two of some of the most loving, genuinely caring, humble and extremely generous people I know. They also make it a point to not judge anyone for any reason; yet ironically because they are rich, they are probably inadvertently being judged by people who can't see past dollar signs.



Do I think buying 8 purses at $20K is a bit excessive? Actually, yes. But then I'm also a minimalist and think a lot of things are excessive. Do I think it's a sin? No, I don't; that's not for me, you nor anyone else to decide; that's Our Lord's business and His alone.



Lot of planks in this thread.





edited to include more specific details.



tracydolls -> RE: Materialism to what limit? (5/7/2008 7:28:00 PM)

quote:

The love of money does not mean that some just don't have the money. That doesn't even make sense.



I know.



quote:

""Those poor babies in Tanzania, Haiti, Ethiopia, Somilia, Mexico, Peru, South Africa, Liberia, South America, China. Iraq, India, etc and the back cotton fields of Missississippi will not have to cry out anymore. ""

How do YOU know who is sending money to starving people and who isn't? How can YOU defame an entire group of people just on what you think know?



I know cause I am watching those poor babies starve everyday. Do you see them? It is very obvouis with people worth millions and billions, they aint sending enough.

Job 27:19 The rich man shall lie down, but he shall not be gathered: he openeth his eyes, and he is not.


the Bible actually speaks about rich and poor, it says DEFEND the poor.



WhiteRoseBlessings -> RE: Materialism to what limit? (5/7/2008 7:52:37 PM)

How much money have you sent to Tanzania?
To Haiti?
To Ethiopia?
To Somilia?
To Mexico?
To Peru?
To South Africa?
To Liberia?
To South America?
To China?
To Iraq?
To India?
To the back cotton fields of Missississippi?

How many missions have you organized?
Started?
Financed?

Why aren't you over in one of those countries right now feeding them?


There has always been hunger; That's not the fault of the wealthy; especially when the wealthy ARE sending money.


I would think with a person of your zeal passion for the hungry would, instead of alienating and defaming people who have money, want to work in partnership with them to help make sure their money was used for feeding people.

Tsk-tsking them on a message board is no more feeding anyone than what you claim they aren't doing . . . and yet, every rich person I know pours tons of money into various charities and missions. In fact, the rich people I know are too busy actively helping people to even come here to defend themselves against useless accusations.



WhiteRoseBlessings -> RE: Materialism to what limit? (5/7/2008 7:53:38 PM)

How is slamming the rich defending the poor? That's certainly not at all proactive.



OLEEguacamole -> RE: Materialism to what limit? (5/7/2008 7:54:48 PM)

so, what percentage of our material should we give to the poor?



tracydolls -> RE: Materialism to what limit? (5/7/2008 8:07:20 PM)

Luk 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.


Luk 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.



WhiteRoseBlessings -> RE: Materialism to what limit? (5/7/2008 8:09:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tracydolls

Luk 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
So. . . have you sold ALL that you have and distributed the proceeds to the poor?



StephK -> RE: Materialism to what limit? (5/7/2008 8:26:23 PM)

I did a search on this overpriced piece of leather and it's quite interesting what I found. There's even a book out there about this bag.

Three Answers: Michael Tonello
By Dick Donahue -- Publishers Weekly, 4/14/2008 8:11:00 AM

Three Answers from Michael Tonello, whose memoir, Bringing Home the Birkin: My Life in Hot Pursuit of the World’s Most Coveted Handbag, will be published on April 22 by William Morrow.

PW: How would you describe the book’s appeal?

MT: A lot of it has to do with the whole Hermes/Birkin mystique, the notion of a waiting list for years to get the bag; sometimes they say there’s even a waiting list to get on the waiting list. I sort of have proven, over the past five years, that basically the waiting list is a hoax. And I write about that in the book without saying it specifically, because of how many bags I buy—in 2005 I spent $1.6 million buying Birkins. There’s a chapter in the book called “the Formula,” the secret of how to get one of these bags. I think the book’s package of the book is going to attract a certain reader, because of the fashion, the celebrity and the amount of money that these bags cost—they start at about eight or nine thousand dollars. But it’s not just a story about this handbag; it’s a memoir, it’s about a five- or six-year period of my life. It’s also a real testament to the power of the Internet and the power of eBay. I mean 15 years ago I never could have done this. I got global exposure to the wealthy women around the world and all these fashionistas, so within a few months I went from being a little seller on eBay to suddenly having 1,600 private clients who were clamoring for these bags.

http://www.publishersweekly.com/article/CA6551207.html



tracydolls -> RE: Materialism to what limit? (5/7/2008 8:53:53 PM)

Mat 6:19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
Mat 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
Mat 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.



MrFribbles -> RE: Materialism to what limit? (5/7/2008 9:13:11 PM)

quote:

I did a search on this over priced piece of leather and it's quite interesting what I found. There's even a book out there about this bag.


*shudder*
That's a little scary. I mean... It's a bag, heh.
Now, I'm not going to say that it's inherently sinful to own one (or indeed, any high-class item). I think what counts is the heart-attitude of the owner, and how they use it. I mean, Joseph of Aramathea (sp?) certainly had a pretty expensive tomb, but look at the awesome way it ended up being used.
I think the most important thing to remember in questions like this is that everything we have comes from one place - God. And seeing as how's that's the case, everything we have should be used for one person's glory - God's. What does that look like? It will vary from person to person. One thing for sure, though - it does not look like spending exorbitant amounts of money filling empty wants while ignoring the needs of those around you.



map4 -> RE: Materialism to what limit? (5/7/2008 11:17:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tracydolls

Luk 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.


Luk 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.



The young man that Jesus was talking to wasn't willng to give up all he had. Yes, he has serving money and his heart wasn't in the right place.

Isnt' that what it all boils down to? Where your heart is?

Just because you have money doesn't mean that you serve money. Many have pointed out how many of the "rich" do exactly the things you say they should do. What more do you want from them? And to the ones who don't give to others...that is between them and God.

What about the verse where Jesus said we would always have the poor? To me that means that no matter how much the "rich" give, it won't matter, someone will always be poor. Doesn't the Bible also say for everyone to give "what he has purposed in his heart to give"? How do we know if people are giving what God has told them to give? We don't. Only they and God know.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe the "rich" who are giving away lots of money are in turn getting blessed because of their giving? I believe that happens. I am by no means rich, but I do what I can to help others and God, in turn, blesses me.

The fact is, we will always have the poor. It's sad but no amount of giving will change that. That doesn't mean we shouldn't give. But how can we judge what another has or gives when we don't know their hearts or if they are, in fact, obeying what God has told them to do with their money? That is what matters. Not what you or anyone else thinks they should be doing with the money they have been blessed with.



tracydolls -> RE: Materialism to what limit? (5/7/2008 11:29:33 PM)

quote:

whole Hermes/Birkin mystique,



Did'nt Hermes refuse Oprah service, come on her show and apologize. they did'nt recognize her, they say.

That's sick we write books on wealth, revel in it. when the Bible is clear, it is a matter of the heart. but He also says give to the poor. Plead for the poor.


I'm pleading for those children in Kenya and Bolivia today. Those poor babies that have become so fashionable to adopt. I'm pleading for those that have not been adopted.


8 $20,000.00 purses is too much. A waste. Of time, energy, cash and leather.


We are suppose to tithes, help the poor, but there is never gonna be a justification for 8 $20,000.00 purses.


I see houses now just stuffed with junk. We have every comfort known to man. Still not happy, suicides, therapy, false religions, drugs, addictions, gambling. We have become filthy with our lucre.

I see Churches preaching false things about the Bible, twist it badly to have people give more money.


I see a people that have plundered the earth, digging, drilling, killing making sure they get every last drop.


I say have your reward. For G-D avenges the poor. I'll take His will over mine anyday. I take Joy in that.

He also says to not be ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.



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