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AoibhinnGrainne -> RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? (4/24/2008 8:08:55 PM)
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ORIGINAL: Kat_D
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I mean, this web-site is anti-Catholic. Anti-Willow Creek. Anti-everyone and everything who doesn't ascribe to the Five Basic Doctrines of The Fundamentals of 1909.
Well, this thread isn't about CW, it's about Eldredge, so perhaps you might defend some of the things we've posted in opposition to his books/teachings with...oh, I don't know...SCRIPTURE! Would that be asking too much?
No, of course not. I just didn't think that's what you'all wanted since you are recommending I read about Eldredge's theology from someone NOT Eldredge!!!
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His quote reads like this: "The heart of a man is like deep water . . ." The meaning of the sentence, as quoted by Eldredge, is that the subject "heart" is described and explained by the adjective phrase, "like deep water." The heart is like deep water, Eldredge claims. But the NKJ text actually reads like this: "Counsel in the heart of man is like deep water." In the biblical text, the subject of the sentence is not "heart," but rather, "Counsel." The simile, "like deep water," refers to the subject, "Counsel," not to the object of the prepositional phrase, "in the heart of man." So the Bible teaches us that counsel is like deep water.
To conclude and teach, as John Eldredge does, that "The heart of a man is like deep water," especially when his quotation of the verse capitalizes the first word as if it were actually the beginning of the sentence, is not to merely misinterpret the meaning of the text; it is to change and misrepresent the meaning of the text. This would not all be quite so serious if he had not built the entire theme of chapter one (and really, the whole book) on the meaning of his edited version of Proverbs 20:5.
I. Proverbs 20:5
You begin your criticism by stating that Eldredge ‘edits’ scripture. As your first example, you give Proverbs 20:5 regarding John’s claim that the heart is like deep water. Below, I have listed several translations of the same verse. Please bear with me.
5 The purposes of a man's heart are deep waters,
but a man of understanding draws them out. – NIV
5A plan in the heart of a man is like deep water,
But a man of understanding draws it out. – NAS
5 Though good advice lies deep within the heart,
a person with understanding will draw it out. – NLT
5 Counsel in the heart of man is like deep water; but a man of understanding will draw it out - KJV
5 Counsel in the heart of man is like deep water,
But a man of understanding will draw it out. – NKJV
5 Counsel in the heart of man is like deep water; But a man of understanding will draw it out - ASV
5 The heart's real intentions are like deep water; but a person with discernment draws them out. CJB
Counsel: etsah: counsel, advice, purpose
Heart: Leb:
inner man, mind, will, heart, understanding
inner part, midst
midst (of things)
heart (of man)
soul, heart (of man)
mind, knowledge, thinking, reflection, memory
inclination, resolution, determination (of will)
conscience
heart (of moral character)
as seat of appetites
as seat of emotions and passions 1a
as seat of courage
You quote the NKJV by writing “Counsel in the heart of man is like deep water…” However, it is just as important to include the rest of the verse which reads “But a man of understanding will draw it out.” The rest of this verse confirms the origin of this ‘Counsel’ (or ‘purpose’ or ‘plan’) as coming from within the heart.
If the purpose or counsel of a man’s heart is like deep water, does it not stand to reason that the heart which contains it is also like deep water, or perhaps more so? Even if you say ‘no,’ it is clear the rest of the verse suggests an act of reaching deep within something in order to draw out the counsel or plan or purposes.
The adjective, as you say, does refer to Counsel in the sentence structure, but the entire verse is referring to the act of understanding which is like drawing something out of deep water, not just the counsel. This is clear by the rest of the verse (which you omit in your criticism). This means the heart is like deep water from which counsel is drawn.
I believe the ‘heart’ Eldredge refers to includes the ‘counsel’ of the heart. It is this ‘counsel’ or ‘purpose’ or ‘plan’ that he is referring to when he discusses ‘desires’ given to us by God in order to provide direction. In short, your criticism regarding Proverbs 20:5 does not change the message, intent, or meaning of the book. In truth, it validates it even further, which, I believe, is the reason Eldredge did not feel the need to include the entire verse. The meaning is the same but for the purpose of the book, it is much simpler to bypass the process and go right to the result…the heart is like deep water.
Again, Eldredge is not a theologian. He is not Jonathan Edwards. He is not Augusatine. He is not RC Sproul.
Right now, I am late picking my Husband up from the airport. I will happily take more of this on as I am able.
And, again, I do not agree with everything that Eldredge writes.
But I also think it's bad form to do a hit and run on another's web-site and criticise the same when you've not been there, read the books, or experienced the ministry...
But that's just me, I guess.
Aoi.
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