Spiritual Hellfire?

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Robert_G -> Spiritual Hellfire? (4/26/2008 11:33:43 PM)
I had an interesting discussion recently about hell/LOF with some other Christians, and the subject came up about whether Hell/LOF was really fire and brimstone, or is it just a place that is devoid of God. For the record....no one in our conversation denied the existance of Hell, or the Lake of Fire mentioned in scripture. What was debated was this... How can a Spritual being (Satan and other demons), be physically tortured eternally? Will Satan be given a physical body in the LOF, or will he just wander around in a dark void seperated from God for eternity? Now the fact remains that non believers AND demons will all end up in the LOF as the final destination, but non believing humans will have a physical resurrected body for sure, so they would be able to feel pain. I'm highly certain that demons will not get off easier then non Christians, so the physical/spiritual issue kind of has me stumped. My problem with Hell/LOF being strictly a spiritual place is that it would force a contradiction in scripture...that being that scripture clearly states that there are different degrees of punishement in hell. Spiritually speaking, being seperated from God means being seperated from God. You can't have different levels of punishment when it comes to that. However, physical torment can definetely have different levels of punishment...so you can see the issue here. My personal belief is that there will be eternal torment in the LOF, but as per the discussion above, is it possible that the torment can be limited to nothing more then being seperated from God for eternity?

humbleinspirit -> RE: Spiritual Hellfire? (4/27/2008 1:50:40 AM)
I heard the late Walter Martin discuss this with a caller once. He was asked it is a literal fire? Probably not, however it sticks to you like fire, and it is hot! A former pastor of mine talked about how hell is departing from Jesus (saying "depart from Me!), His love (or anything that has to do with God.) That alone is hell!

1love1God1way -> RE: Spiritual Hellfire? (4/27/2008 1:51:11 AM)
Is hell devoid of God, or God's wrath?

dbark -> RE: Spiritual Hellfire? (4/27/2008 3:07:05 AM)
quote: My problem with Hell/LOF being strictly a spiritual place is that it would force a contradiction in scripture...that being that scripture clearly states that there are different degrees of punishement in hell. Spiritually speaking, being seperated from God means being seperated from God. You can't have different levels of punishment when it comes to that. However, physical torment can definetely have different levels of punishment...so you can see the issue here. Can you provide a verse that mentions the different levels of punishment? Thanks. My feeling is that a literal fire is unlikely and that separation from God (and all goodness that is His) is hell's punishment. I like the imagery (maybe like isn't the right word) in C.S. Lewis' "The Great Divorce" as he illustrates people suffering in the hell of separation from God created by their own minds and stubbornness/selfishness.

SureHope -> RE: Spiritual Hellfire? (4/27/2008 6:26:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way Is hell devoid of God, or God's wrath? Good point. The punishment for sin is the eternal wrath of God. Is hell devoid of God? If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there. (Psalm 139:8 NASB95) Hell is not devoid of God . . . it is just not the part of God you want to deal with eternally.

TheoJunkie -> RE: Spiritual Hellfire? (4/27/2008 8:05:49 AM)
SH, well said.

kmangel -> RE: Spiritual Hellfire? (4/27/2008 2:09:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dbark I like the imagery (maybe like isn't the right word) in C.S. Lewis' There was a comment by C. S. Lewis that stuck with me about Hell. A person may think that 70-80 years of living with a bad temper tolerable--but how about an eternity? That's a whole other can of worms!

Ezra -> RE: Spiritual Hellfire? (4/27/2008 3:01:07 PM)
quote: Hell is not devoid of God . . . it is just not the part of God you want to deal with eternally. If Hell is not devoid of God, it cannot be Hell. It would be Heaven. Where do we get such ideas from? Hell was created for the devil and his angels, therefore it is a place reserved for the enemies of God suffering the eternal wrath of God. And just because God is present throughout this universe, does not mean that He is present in Hell (the Lake of Fire, not Sheol or Hades). Since Hell is also in "outer darkness" (which man knows nothing about) why should we not believe that Hell is devoid of God? After all, it is the place of eternal separation from God (a dreadful thought and one not to be taken lightly). And separation from God means precisely that. "Depart from me" implies that the workers of iniquity cannot be in God's presence. Furthermore, we have no business speculating about Hell, since not one of us has a clue about the horrors of Hell. To call it "spiritual hellfire" is to deny what Scripture affirms. To speculate in any manner about how spirit beings such as Satan can suffer in Hell is to go beyond the limits of our understanding and what God has revealed. Let us rather simply believe God and desist from all vain speculations. The more important and critical matters are (1) to pray for all men that they will be saved, (2) to make every effort to bring the Gospel to "every creature" as Christ commanded, and (3) to personally share the Gospel with as many as we can. "He which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins" (Jas. 5:20).

Ezra -> RE: Spiritual Hellfire? (4/27/2008 3:16:11 PM)
quote: If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there. (Psalm 139:8 NASB95) Except that Sheol is Hades, not the Lake of Fire. Sheol or Hades (which is "in the heart of the earth") used to be inhabited by both sinners and saints (in separate sections) until the resurrection and ascension of Christ. In fact, Christ descended into Hades after He died, and God would have been present with the saints who were in "Abraham's bosom", since God is always with His saints. But to apply Psalm 139:8 to the Lake of Fire is completely inaccurate and misleading. Death and hell (Sheol or Hades) will be cast into the Lake of Fire (Rev. 20:14), meaning that the present inhabitants of Hades -- all unredeemed souls -- will be cast into the Lake of Fire, which is "in outer darkness", not "in the heart of the earth". The translators of the KJV did us a great disservice by applying the word "hell" to three different regions -- Hades, Tartarus and Gehenna (the Lake of Fire). That does not mean we are to allow ourselves to be confused, since we have access to various Bible study tools.

1love1God1way -> RE: Spiritual Hellfire? (4/27/2008 3:59:54 PM)
Is being in the presence of God's wrath better or worse than not being in his presence at all? Which is the worse punishment?

Robert_G -> RE: Spiritual Hellfire? (4/27/2008 6:37:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dbark Can you provide a verse that mentions the different levels of punishment? Thanks. I can start with this. Luke 12: 47-48 47"That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked. These words from Jesus are clear indicators that punishment is NOT equal. Many theologians have agreed there will be different levels of punishement in hell. Not all agree, but most seem to. quote: ORIGINAL: Ezra quote: Hell is not devoid of God . . . it is just not the part of God you want to deal with eternally. If Hell is not devoid of God, it cannot be Hell. It would be Heaven. Where do we get such ideas from? Hell was created for the devil and his angels, therefore it is a place reserved for the enemies of God suffering the eternal wrath of God. And just because God is present throughout this universe, does not mean that He is present in Hell (the Lake of Fire, not Sheol or Hades). Since Hell is also in "outer darkness" (which man knows nothing about) why should we not believe that Hell is devoid of God? After all, it is the place of eternal separation from God (a dreadful thought and one not to be taken lightly). And separation from God means precisely that. "Depart from me" implies that the workers of iniquity cannot be in God's presence. God is surely not in hell or the LOF, but he does have all authority over it...and knows exactly what is going on IN it. quote: ORIGINAL: Ezra Furthermore, we have no business speculating about Hell, since not one of us has a clue about the horrors of Hell. To call it "spiritual hellfire" is to deny what Scripture affirms. To speculate in any manner about how spirit beings such as Satan can suffer in Hell is to go beyond the limits of our understanding and what God has revealed. Let us rather simply believe God and desist from all vain speculations. Excuse me...Anytime a person or people will engage in conversation about God, or anything to do with Christianity....then it is a good thing. I never once said that any of us were even argueing. Neither were we even voicing our opinions strongly. We were simply having good solid Christian discussion...you know, the stuff that brings brothers closer together. I also don't believe for a second that this discussion is limited to mere speculation. There is a fair amount of scripture on hell/LOF that we can sift throught, not to mention.....Christians have questions....Non believers have questions, and if we can't take the time to study and try our best to help these people out, then we aren't much use. Now if someone forcefully asked me "Who Created God"?...that would be different. quote: ORIGINAL: Ezra Sheol or Hades (which is "in the heart of the earth") used to be inhabited by both sinners and saints (in separate sections) until the resurrection and ascension of Christ. Sheol and Hades is not the same thing. Sheol is the grave, and Hades is the 'Hell' part of the grave (Sheol) quote: ORIGINAL: Ezra In fact, Christ descended into Hades after He died, and God would have been present with the saints who were in "Abraham's bosom", since God is always with His saints. Incorrect...and the blame can be put on some bad creed translations. Christ NEVER went to Hades. Christ went to Sheol and preached to the 'spirits in prison'...those in Hades. How did he do this without going to Hades himself? Simple..As you said Ezra, there are 2 sides to Sheol. Paradise and Hades. As per the story of the rich man in Luke, we know that discussion took place across the chasm that seperated Paradise from Hades. Christ(In Paradise as he promised the criminal next to him), preached across the Chasm to the spirits in prison, just as Abraham did to the rich man in the Luke story. Christ did NOT descend into hell to be tortured as some badly translated Creeds suggest.

humbleinspirit -> RE: Spiritual Hellfire? (4/27/2008 11:49:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way Is hell devoid of God, or God's wrath? Devoid of God completely.

Ezra -> RE: Spiritual Hellfire? (4/28/2008 12:44:10 AM)
quote: Sheol and Hades is not the same thing. Sheol is the grave, and Hades is the 'Hell' part of the grave (Sheol) Robert: I can understand your confusion, but Sheol and Hades are identical, and are not equivalent to "the grave", even though "the grave" is used metaphorically in the OT for Sheol. To be crystal clear about this, we need to understand that physical death is the separation of the soul and spirit from the body. The body goes into the grave or tomb, while the soul and spirit to the abode of departed souls (except that after the ascension of Christ all the saints go directly to be with Christ in Heaven). This place of departed souls is called Sheol in the OT and Hades in the NT, and both sinners and saint went there until the resurrection of Christ. In Psalm 16:10 we read "Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell". This should have been transliterated as "Thou wilt not leave my soul in Sheol". When we read this quotation in Acts 2:27, it should have been transliterated as "Thou wilt not leave my soul in Hades". Those are the words used in the Hebrew and Greek, therefore they speak of one and the same place. In neither case is this "the grave" since the grave is for bodies, not souls. quote: Incorrect...and the blame can be put on some bad creed translations. Christ NEVER went to Hades. Christ went to Sheol and preached to the 'spirits in prison'...those in Hades. How did he do this without going to Hades himself? Since Hades and Sheol are identical, I don't know where you came up with this. We do know that there were two separate sections or "compartments" in Hades separated by "a great gulf". On one side were the saved and on the other side were the lost. And Christ's descent into Hades is not the same as the false teaching that Christ went into the Lake of Fire. No one has entered the Lake of Fire as yet. They are all awaiting their judgment in Hades.

FurGodWurLivin -> RE: Spiritual Hellfire? (4/28/2008 6:08:54 AM)
My opinion on this is rather easy. If God is truly omnipresent, then it is impossible to be in a place that is "devoid of God". What do I think the Lake of Fire is? It is a Lake of the burning presence of God. The wicked who are sent there will spend all of eternity immersed in God's infinite zeal against sin and iniquity. Why is it torture? Because God is a consuming fire. In Revelation we see the saints standing before God on a sea of crystal mingled with fire. Because we will also be standing in the presence of God forevermore. The difference is if you are righteous (in which case you will be feeling his fire of Love) or if you are degenerate (in which case you will be feeling the fire of Judgement). So yes, I do believe the Lake of Fire is actually fire, but that fire is the presence of God Himself. Adam

1love1God1way -> RE: Spiritual Hellfire? (4/28/2008 9:58:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit quote: ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way Is hell devoid of God, or God's wrath? Devoid of God completely. Then who's in charge down there (the boy asks with a hint of sarcasm)?

Ezra -> RE: Spiritual Hellfire? (4/28/2008 11:46:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way quote: ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit quote: ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way Is hell devoid of God, or God's wrath? Devoid of God completely. Then who's in charge down there (the boy asks with a hint of sarcasm)? Nobody. It is the ultimate maximum security prison with no possibility of parole or escape. Even Satan can't breach security over here. And Satan is not busy tormenting others (as commonly supposed). He himself is in utmost agony (Rev. 20:10).

Ezra -> RE: Spiritual Hellfire? (4/28/2008 11:56:34 PM)
quote: If God is truly omnipresent, then it is impossible to be in a place that is "devoid of God" What if God is truly omnipresent, yet has created a place from which He will be totally absent, because He is fully capable of doing so? Omnipresence pertains to this universe, but what if outer darkness is outside this universe? What if it is the exception to the rule? What if God may not be confined to our understanding of "omnipresence" just as He is outside of time and space and totally beyond human understanding? Hell and it's inhabitants are the very antithesis of all that is good and godly. Therefore God is absent from Hell, as are all the saints (the ones sanctified by the indwelling Holy Spirit).

Rev_22_4 -> RE: Spiritual Hellfire? (4/29/2008 1:58:06 AM)
For some reason, people have it in their minds that, the lake of fire is a place where the wicked will go and be in constant, continual pain throughout all of eternity. I am not sure where this idea originated from. From what I gather in the Bible, it appears to me that this idea is not true. The Bible says that the wages of sin is death. quote: Romans 6 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Ezekiel 18 4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. When people go to hell, they will burn up and die. quote: Psalms 37 10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. 20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away. Malachi 4 1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts. Matthew 10 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Now let's think about this for a second. If the wages of sin is a constant, continual pain and agony in hellfire, this would imply four things that contradict other teachings of the Bible: #1: Jesus did not pay the price for our sins. Is Jesus going to burn in hell for all of eternity? I am sure we have all heard the saying, �I owed a debt which I could not pay. He paid that debt which He did not owe.� Is there any doubt that Jesus paid the price for our sins? I believe He did pay that price. The wages of sin is death. Did Jesus die? quote: Romans 14 9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. 1 Corinthians 6 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. 1 Corinthians 7 23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men. #2: God is unjust. Again, the wages of sin is death. What is a wage? You have heard the term �minimum wage� before right? Isn't a wage something we earn or something we work for? Death isn't as much of a penalty as it is an earning. How much sin would one have to commit in order to earn eternal pain? It is my belief that one does not live long enough to commit enough sins to deserve to be in constant, continual pain for all of eternity. What kind of justice is that? Is God a just God? quote: Deuteronomy 32 4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he. #3: God is not very loving. When we hear of animals killing people, what do we do to those animals? Do we catch it, stick it in a cage, only give it enough food and water for it to survive, stick it out on the street with a stick next to it's cage so that when people walk by they can poke it? Is that what we do? Don't we just kill that animal? Do you love your family? If some of your family members don't make it to heaven, would you want them to burn in hell in constant, continual pain and agony for all of eternity? Throughout the entire Bible, we see so many loving acts committed by God. It is my belief that God loves our families more than we do. How much more would God not want to do such a thing to them? Is God a loving God? quote: Jeremiah 31 3 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee. John 3 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 1John 4 8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. #4: The wicked have eternal life. In order to suffer pain and agony throughout all of eternity, you would have to have eternal life. Nowhere in the Bible does it mention that God will give everyone eternal life. Whenever the Bible speaks of giving eternal life, it is always to the righteous. Do the wicked receive the gift of eternal life? quote: Ezekiel 33 11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? John 3 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Romans 6 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Ezekiel 18 4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. Psalms 37 10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. 20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

FurGodWurLivin -> RE: Spiritual Hellfire? (4/29/2008 3:11:14 AM)
quote: What if God is truly omnipresent, yet has created a place from which He will be totally absent, because He is fully capable of doing so? That is delving into the theoretical/philosophical realm...... so anything is possible. The problem being that if God is "omnipresent" then He must be everywhere that is anywhere... otherwise that anywhere is actually nowhere. The absurdity of that particular claim is that it means God is not infinite because He has limits. If God has limits, then He is not omnipotent because there is someplace He cannot be. The fact is that God is everywhere... in the heights of heaven,and in the depths of hell(the grave). quote: Omnipresence pertains to this universe, but what if outer darkness is outside this universe? Omnipresence does not refer only to this universe. Rather omnipresence makes the statement that anywhere there is that someone/something "can be" God is there. quote: Hell and it's inhabitants are the very antithesis of all that is good and godly. Therefore God is absent from Hell, as are all the saints (the ones sanctified by the indwelling Holy Spirit). Hell is not the antithesis of all that is good... otherwise Satan and the antichrist being in prison (Revelation 20-21) is not good. quote: For some reason, people have it in their minds that, the lake of fire is a place where the wicked will go and be in constant, continual pain throughout all of eternity. I am not sure where this idea originated from. The Bible, actually............. Revelation 14 says: "Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name. Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." So yes, the Lake of Fire does contain the promise of continual torture for all of eternity. quote: Jesus did not pay the price for our sins. Is Jesus going to burn in hell for all of eternity? I am sure we have all heard the saying, �I owed a debt which I could not pay. He paid that debt which He did not owe.� Is there any doubt that Jesus paid the price for our sins? I believe He did pay that price. The wages of sin is death. Did Jesus die? No, Jesus is not going to burn in Hell for all eternity. Why? Because the injustice of killing a perfect man serves as justice for the rest of the earth that will have faith in Him. The fact is that every little sin is an infinite offense against an infinitely holy God. Due to this, infinite punishment is more than warranted... it is demanded. It is God's mercy and ONLY His mercy that allows any of us the chance to repent, just as it is His mercy that the wicked will not be completely annihilated by His holiness. quote: #2: God is unjust. Again, the wages of sin is death. What is a wage? You have heard the term �minimum wage� before right? Isn't a wage something we earn or something we work for? Death isn't as much of a penalty as it is an earning. How much sin would one have to commit in order to earn eternal pain? It is my belief that one does not live long enough to commit enough sins to deserve to be in constant, continual pain for all of eternity. What kind of justice is that? Is God a just God? Yes, God is just. However, He is also infinitely Holy. Were I to make a guess, 99.9% of human beings on this planet do not realize just how bad even the smallest of sins are. The wages of "sin" is death. Stealing a dime from a millionaire is enough to earn death. If stealing an infintesimal piece of currency is enough to earn death, how much more is Blasphemy of the Holy God worthy of eternal damnation? quote: #3: God is not very loving. When we hear of animals killing people, what do we do to those animals? Do we catch it, stick it in a cage, only give it enough food and water for it to survive, stick it out on the street with a stick next to it's cage so that when people walk by they can poke it? Is that what we do? Don't we just kill that animal? Do you love your family? If some of your family members don't make it to heaven, would you want them to burn in hell in constant, continual pain and agony for all of eternity? Throughout the entire Bible, we see so many loving acts committed by God. It is my belief that God loves our families more than we do. How much more would God not want to do such a thing to them? Is God a loving God? Yes, God is love. What does the Bible say about love? "(love) does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;" (1st Corinthians 13:6). Because God IS love (1 John 4) we know that all the descriptions of love given in 1st Corinthians 13 are infinitely true of God. God infinitely does not rejoice in the truth. As I have said, every little sin, no matter how "intense" is an infinite offense against an infinitely holy God. Proportionally speaking, telling a "white lie" is no farther below God that being a mass murderer because God is infinitely holier than both. God says of Himself over and over again that He does not wish for the wicked to perish in their wickedness... but that does not mean that they won't. Paul said it in Romans 11, "Consider, therefore, the goodness and the severity of God." quote: #4: The wicked have eternal life. In order to suffer pain and agony throughout all of eternity, you would have to have eternal life. Nowhere in the Bible does it mention that God will give everyone eternal life. Whenever the Bible speaks of giving eternal life, it is always to the righteous. Do the wicked receive the gift of eternal life? This is a philosophical question more than a Biblical one, though the Bible does speak on the topic a little bit. We know that the Antichrist and the False Prophet will live forever in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:10), and we know that the dead will be resurrected before being judged (Revelation 20:11-15). Unless you are willing to make a distinction between being resurrected and being resurrected, we have to assume that the physical state of those being cast into the lake of fire and those being brought into the Kingdom are the same, but their destinations are different because of their spiritual reality. That is why I have no trouble believing that the wicked will experience everlasting punishment for their infinite wickedness and foolishness, while the righteous experience everlasting joy in the presence of God.

Shrommer -> RE: Spiritual Hellfire? (5/1/2008 5:32:56 PM)
I am posting a brief essay that I wrote, mainly because it talks about different words for hell and different levels of hell. It may also address the issue of whether it is physical or spiritual. For a good synopsis of the physical versus the spiritual bodies, though, see I Corinthians 15. Compare also II Peter 3:7, and 3:10-13 where it speaks of the current physical earth and heavens being replaced by a new heavens and earth, which may be spiritual or physical, or some strange combination/dimension that we can't even imagine yet. Also, in Revelation it gives some very physical-sounding descriptions of the New Jerusalem, the new heavens and the new earth.

Shrommer -> RE: Spiritual Hellfire? (5/1/2008 5:36:24 PM)
It is hard to picture Jesus in hell. Our English word �hell� is like Dante�s �Inferno� � a punishing place of fiery torment where the flames burn hot, fierce, and mercilessly for all eternity. Knowing that Jesus was perfect and sinless, how could God be just and send His Son Jesus to such a place? It would be a punishment that Christ never deserved. As far as it being a punishment that he did not deserve, the Bible is very clear that Jesus suffered for our sins and not for his own. It is only because the infinite and perfect God-man suffered for our sins that an infinite number of sinful men can be set free from such a punishment. There was a great exchange. Jesus� righteousness was laid on us, along with the rewards of his righteousness, while our sin was laid on Jesus, along with the punishment for our sin. (This is not automatic. It requires a human response. It is a gift from God to man which man receives by faith. See Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 10:9-10.) If hell is indeed part of man�s punishment for sin, and Jesus takes man�s punishment on himself, then Jesus would need to go to hell. I have not done research on the etymology of the English word �hell�, but a 1991 Webster�s Dictionary lists: 1. the place or state of punishment of the wicked after death; the abode of evil and condemned spirits. 2. any place of torment or misery. ... 4. the powers of evil. 5. the abode of the dead; Sheol or Hades. 6. extreme disorder of chaos. 7. severe scolding or punishment. Only a God who is love and who loves us so much would be willing to do this for us, and it is a concept that no other religion even contemplates. Religious thinking is about finding out or creating the rules. The Gospel is about God coming to man with truth and forgiveness, not forgiveness because God ignores our sin, but because He actually satisfies justice by paying the debt we owe and receiving our punishment on Himself. Galatians 3:13 (from Deuteronomy 21:23) says: �Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree [cross].� It is clear that Christ was cursed for our sake, and reasonable that this curse would result in a sentencing to hell. It is so clear through history that Jesus needed to go to hell for his saving work to be complete that it was included in the Apostle�s Creed and/or the Nicene Creed: �He descended into hell.� Psalm 88:11 (NIV) �Is your love declared in the grave, your faithfulness in Destruction?� The word for �grave� is the Hebrew �Sheol.� The word for �Destruction� is the Hebrew �Abaddon.� Hell is a place where Jesus was separated from the love of God the Father. Psalm 16:11 is a verse Peter uses in Acts 2:27 to describe Christ. �... you will not abandon me to the grave (Sheol), nor will you let your Holy One see decay.� In the King James Version: �... thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.� (This is likely the verse on which the Creed was based.) In the New International Version: �... you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay.� The Greek (probably) says �Hades� where the Hebrew said �Sheol�. The KJV translates it as �hell�, whereas the NIV says simply �grave�. Matthew 27:51-53 (NIV): �At that moment [of Jesus� death] the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. The tombs [I understand not all tombs, but certain tombs] broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus� resurrection they went into the holy city [Jerusalem] and appeared to many people.� I Peter 3:18-20 (NIV): �For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built....� There were spirits kept there from the time of Noah at least until the time of Christ�s death. It is assumed that Jesus preached to these spirits during the three days he was dead, and not at any other time. This assumption is bolstered by the next verses from Ephesians which state that Christ did indeed go to the underworld (or Hades). Ephesians 4:7-10 (NIV): �This is why it says, �When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men.� (What does �he ascended� mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens.)� Not only does this verse say that Jesus did go to the lower, earthly regions � a place lower than simply the tomb at ground level � but it also says that when he ascended up from there he led captives out. These could very well be the same holy �captives� who were walking around Jerusalem in Matthew 27 and/or the ones who disobeyed in the days of Noah in I Peter 3, finally freed from a particular prison through Christ�s redeeming death on the cross. These four or five Scriptures together form most of the Biblical basis for believing that Jesus did indeed go to hell. The Sheol mentioned in Psalms and Acts and then explained in the book of Ephesians is not the tomb or the cave which man can physically see and touch at Golgotha, but rather a grave below the earth where only a spirit being can travel. Ecclesiastes 3:19-21: �Man�s fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; ... All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?� The writer says that the fate of both is the same from the earthly physical perspective � what we can see in this lifetime. This is somewhat the most neutral, mild meaning of the word �Sheol�: the grave, the earth, death. The writer, however, leaves room for the spirit to have a fate which cannot be seen. Our human understanding of hell is based on a progressive revelation. Most of the Old Testament uses Sheol as the most neutral term. Isaiah 66:24 is an Old Testament exception. The insight we have is amplified by Christ�s words, and it culminates in the Book of Revelation, which is the final truth about hell that we will receive until Jesus returns.

Shrommer -> RE: Spiritual Hellfire? (5/1/2008 5:37:26 PM)
�Death� is defined as a separation. It mainly refers to the separating of the spirit (or soul) from the body, or from the body and mind (soul). (It depends on which concept of �soul� we are talking about.) In a similar way, Evangelicals have described hell as a separation of man from God. When we read �The wages of sin is death,� (Romans 6:23) we are not just thinking of a physical death, but of an eternal death where the spirit exists and survives, but is dead in the sense of being apart from God and all his goodness forever. (Christians do not expect to dig a hold to the center of the earth and find a physical place there called hell. Nor do we expect the Hubble spacecraft to take any pictures of God�s heaven outside of earth�s atmosphere.) Now it is true that man is separated from God from birth because of the sin inherited from Adam. Even so, God�s Spirit is present and working on the earth. God�s hand is with men to �send forth rain on the just and the unjust� (to make crops grow; not to ruin summer picnics) here in this physical world. Once man is removed from the blessings of this earth and left alone as a spirit totally separated from God, the torment and misery of Webster�s second definition becomes unbearable. Hell is no party; it�s no fun. It�s a dark place (the �outer darkness� of Matthew 8:12, 22:13, and 22:50). It is described in Isaiah and echoed by Christ as the place where �the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.� (Isaiah 66:24). It is called a place of �weeping and gnashing of teeth.� (Matthew 8:12, 13:42, 13:50, 22:13, 24:51, 25:30; Luke 13:28.) Even so, it does not seem to have been designed as a place of punishment, at least not for man. Matthew 25:41 is one of Billy Graham�s favorite verses. It explains that hell was a place created for the devil and his angels. It is not so much that God sends us to hell, but rather that man chooses it, first of all by sinning and earning it, and secondly through not receiving by faith the salvation that God freely extends. God cannot even so much as look at sin, so He will not let sinful man into His presence in heaven. If he would let sin in heaven, it really wouldn�t be heaven anymore. Also, if man cannot love God on earth for what God has done, man would not love God in heaven either, so there could never really be heaven for a man that rejects or hates God. By not believing in Jesus, many people are deliberately keeping themselves outside of the domain of God�s grace, and giving Him no alternative but to cast man away from Him where there is only suffering. I Corinthians 15:50 elucidates that physical bodies cannot receive heaven. It is appropriate to assume, then, that hell also is a place for spiritual beings only, and is not a physical place. It is, however, an actual and very real spiritual place. This is not to say that the fire and worm spoken of in Isaiah are the same as the physical worms and flames we see on earth. We think of fire as a source of light, yet hell is a place of darkness. They may or may not be literal, they are probably not physical, but they definitely are real. For a more detailed discussion of the differences between natural bodies and spiritual or glorified bodies, a reading of the whole fifteenth chapter is recommended, along with comparisons to Jesus� body when he appeared to people on earth during the forty days after his resurrection. (Chapter 15 tells us that he even appeared to 500 people at the same time. Specific accounts are in the end of the four gospels and the beginning of Acts.) In Luke 16:19-32, Jesus tells the story of the rich man and Lazarus. The rich man is �In hell� (Greek �Hades�, v. 23), �in torment�, and �in agony in this fire�, pleading for a drop of cool water from Lazarus. Lazarus had been carried by angels to Abraham�s bosom, which is his chest or his lap, translated in the NIV as �Abraham�s side.� There is a �great chasm fixed� between the two sides (v. 26) so that no man can cross over either way. Revelation 20:11-15 speaks of dead coming out of 1) the sea, 2) death and 3) Hades, ... or perhaps 1) the sea and 2) death & Hades ... to be judged according to their works, or if their names were found in the Book of Life to go on to glory. Death and Hades, it says, are thrown into the lake of fire, which is the second death. All who are judged according to their works are also cast into the lake of fire. To be saved, we had better be sure we don�t get judged by our works, whereby all are guilty. We�d better be sure instead that our names are in the Book of Life. �He who has the Son has life.� � St. John. I Thessalonians 4:13-18 talks of those Christians who die before Christ�s return and says that they are �sleeping.� There are many other New Testament quotes where it talks of death as a sleeping. However, we know that Samuel�s ghost appeared to Saul even after Samuel had died (I Samuel 28:11-20), and we know that Elijah and Moses spoke with Jesus centuries after their deaths and before Jesus� (Luke 9:28-36). II Peter 2:4 says, �For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell [Greek �Tartarus�], putting them into gloomy dungeons (or chains of darkness) to be held for judgment ...� This sounds like one type of prison for the angels which is called hell, yet comes before the final judgment and the throwing into the lake of fire spoken of in Revelation. Finally, we must look at �Gehenna.� It literally means the valley or gorge of Jebus. Matthew 5:22 speaks of its fire, and Jesus uses this word several times where the English translates it as �hell.� It was the garbage heap outside of the city wall (compare to �outer darkness�), where the trash lay (it must be dark in the middle of that pile) and was sometimes burned for sanitary reasons. It seems that there could be trash inside the city wall, which speaks of sinful man living among the blessings of earth, then there could be trash thrown over the wall outside the city symbolizing a place of waiting in suffering and despair in the outer darkness, and finally the burning itself as a place of flames consuming the rubbish.

Shrommer -> RE: Spiritual Hellfire? (5/1/2008 5:39:17 PM)
Jesus went to hell for us. Jesus said when he died, �My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?� He was separated from God the Father, along with all His goodness and protection, and left powerless for a time in suffering to pay the price for our sin. But God exerted a great power and raised Jesus from the dead, raising him from hell and giving him the victory over Satan and evil. (Ephesians 1:19-22) Hell may have many different prisons, rooms, cells, compartments, or levels. The different words used for hell in the Bible may refer to these different parts. There could be one place for Abaddon, another for the angels, another for the disobedient from the days of Noah, etc. There are apparently different things happening in different times as well. From Adam til Christ�s death man did not necessarily go to the same place as those dying today, and it seems that on the Judgment Day there will be a whole new place into which many will be cast which could be called another hell. It is not clear how many of the following Jesus visited or experienced: the sea where the dead go, Hades, death, the grave, Sheol, Tartarus, hell, the inferno, the Lake of Fire, prison, chaos, the hands of evil, Gehenna before the flames, Gehenna with the flames, Abaddon, etc. What is clear is that Jesus loved us, and drank the full cup of suffering so that we could be set free and live in heaven eternally! One may say, �If Jesus went to hell, what chance do I have of going to heaven?�, looking at it from a religious mindset. Or one may say, �Jesus went to hell for me and paid the price once and for all, so that I have no chance of going there myself.� Once God raised Jesus from the dead, he counts us as raised with Christ, us in Christ, and Christ in us. For us to go to hell in Christ, Christ would have to go to hell again with us. Since Jesus already paid the full price, that is not going to happen. We can rest secure in Jesus, and look forward to sharing his throne with him in heaven as he says in Revelation 3:21. I Corinthians 15:55 quotes Hosea 13:14: �Where, O death is your victory? Where, O grave is your sting?� vv. 56-57: �The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.� Jesus made an open show of the powers of darkness when he defeated them by the cross. In Revelation 1:17-18 Jesus says: �Do not be afraid! I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.�

Shrommer -> RE: Spiritual Hellfire? (5/1/2008 9:32:17 PM)
Regarding how Jesus could have spent an eternity in hell for us when he was only there three days ... C.S. Lewis (Mere Christianity) speaks of God being outside of the realm of time. The end of the ages on the Last Day could very well be the end of time. The way we look at it, Jesus pre-existed before his birth on earth, and sits at the right hand of the Father in glory after the resurrection, but for God and in the spirit realm, it could be all three at once - before coming to earth, on earth, and after the ascension. There are two thought experiments I know of that can help us understand this theory. One is Lewis'. He compares time and our existence on earth to a book that God has in his library. We are characters in the book with free will, yet God knows every decision we ever make and why because He has the entire book, beginning to end. God may choose to open the book to any page at any time, and that does not change what is in the book. We as characters in the book only see the page we are on, and historically we can see some of the previous pages. Prophetically we can see a shadowy picture of some of the later pages. God's got the whole book. The second thought picture is mine. It stems from the book idea a little bit. Our perspectives are two-dimensional; we exist on the flat pages of the book during our earthly existence. God exists in three dimensions and can be above the book, below it, etc. He can interact with the page, but He also interacts in other realms off the page. From our two-dimensional perspective on the page (... and here I move away from the book idea a little bit and think of it more like just a sheet of paper ... ) a pencil can only be in a confined two-dimensional space on the page. It probably looks like a circle to us. This is where we see Jesus in the grave for three days. We think we can see all around where the pencil is on the page, because we can see everywhere else on the paper that the pencil is not. Right? Yes. We can see before Jesus was in the grave, and after Jesus was in the grave. Both those times, he's not in the grave. But being able to see everywhere on the paper that the pencil (Jesus' death event) is, does not mean that we can see everywhere that the pencil is. Now picture the pencil poking a hole in the paper, with half the pencil sticking out the one side, and half the pencil sticking out the other. The rest of the pencil - what is not within the hole on the paper - is in the spiritual realm. Take it a step further and extend the pencil out to an infinite length. From our perspective, Jesus' death is a finite circle on the page. From the spiritual perspective, Jesus' existence extends below the paper infinitely - he is infinitely in hell, paying the price for our eternity in hell. His existence also extends infinitely above the paper. He is infinitely seated at the right hand of the Father in spiritual places. Both the infinity below the page and the infinity above the page are because of his death and resurrection experience on the page, but neither is limited to the experience on the page; neither is limited to time. This is an analogy which - like every analogy - breaks down. But it can give us an example of how our thinking is small and limited compared to the way God sees things. If we exist in a four-dimensional universe and God exists in infinite dimensions, it is very possible that from our perspective Jesus was in the tomb three days, but from the spiritual perspective Jesus spends all eternity in hell (even as he spends eternity reigning in majesty and glory). Now please jump back to the book with me. Jesus' time in the grave could be eternal in the way that the event that happens on a certain page of the book does not go away just because the book is closed or left on the shelf. The event is always there, even if as God you are not reading that page at the time. Hell for the rest of the human race could be like being in a hell-fire event at the very end of the book, with no more pages after that, yet never being able to leave the book world to get into the world that God lives in.

Robert_G -> RE: Spiritual Hellfire? (5/2/2008 12:23:33 AM)
Some interesting stuff there, Shrommer, but like I stated before, it is in common agreement among scholars that some creed translations were poorly done (even though some still use those translations). It has been properly corrected for years now, and the fact remains that the true Creed Translations say that "He descended to the DEAD (sheol)", not "HELL" (Hades). Jesus promised the criminal beside him on the cross. "TODAY you will be with me in paradise"

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