RE: Who will stand?

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SonInMe1 -> RE: Who will stand? (5/3/2008 7:43:13 PM)
Every church I have attended preached accountability. Having the close relationships with people to encourage and to correct each other.

pstrdebi -> RE: Who will stand? (5/3/2008 8:04:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SonInMe1 Well its been a personal opinion of mine for some time that the longer we have a certain doctrine or denomination the more it becomes perverted, i.e. the jewish faith from the Law to the perverted pharesee legalism to the catholic church from the first church to the staid ceremonial church of today. To be honest I don't care that much for churches, so to speak. A church is a tool we have as christians and like any tool its only as good as the wielder. Like I said before, our walks with God are individual and the responsibility we each have is, ultimately, always personal. Yes, we have encouragement. We need edification. We need correction. I can certainly understand how someone can get to that point (not caring that much for churches). There was a time in my life when I felt I would never return to the church... mostly due to the hypocracy I had seen. In fact... it took a very, very long time to finalize my decission to become ordained. I knew there would be pitfalls and I knew that there would be battles at every corner. I also knew that I was human (yikes!). I had to truly search my heart for months before taking that final step, knowing that I would be even more accountable to God than I was before. I needed to be sure that I could handle the pressure... the backlash... and all the crucifiction that comes along with it! And yes... I agree that our walks are individual... and personal. quote: You will enjoy this place a lot more if it doesn't become personal. Sorry. [:)] [:o] I get a little too passionate sometimes. It's my husbands fault... he made me this way! (That part about my husband was just a joke!) quote: I am just saying even poor doctrines can bear good fruit. Of course. Paul spoke of this in Philippians. quote: The men gossip thing? At work its...horrible. Its to the point where I seldom speak with anyone at work. Its becoming destructive. That is crazy! I have never seen anything like that. Too bad. Good that you stay out of it. Back before becomming a pastor, I was very involved with a church, and eventually had to bow out of a bible study because it was so unruly. so unfortunate. God bless... Pastor Debi

deliveredarling -> RE: Who will stand? (5/3/2008 9:05:43 PM)
If we don't know what we will stand against, how can we confidently say Who we will stand for? If we don't acknowledge sin within the body(ours and others) we are guilty before God. If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything, as it appears many have done within the body of Christ. It is time for the church to rise up.

CherishedbyGod -> RE: Who will stand? (5/3/2008 9:50:07 PM)
More of my view on taking a "stand" against sin... I would love it if unbelievers and Christians that are struggling with sin would read my devotional[:)] Just to show another side[;)] Please see post #579... http://forums.christianity.com/m_1230561/mpage_24/tm.htm

Kath -> RE: Who will stand? (5/3/2008 9:53:50 PM)
quote: Is it just us... or are there others out there who are appalled by the defilement of the church today? User friendly churches who preach that everyone is "ok" without preaching the bold truths of the gospel... lesbians and gays preaching from the pulpit... and much more! Where are our Billy Grahams of today? Who will hold the leaders of the churches across America accountable? (yes, I know God will... however, we are called also to hold one-another accountable) ask yourselves without bias, which church are you? I'd like to post a reminder of what the OP wished to discuss. Innocent comments and even encouragement has been twisted to suggest the opposite. If one cannot discuss this topic and not get defensive then this is not the thread for you. Sincerely Kath Volunteer Assistant Administrator Please do not reply to this message within the Community. Please do not send me PMs regarding this message as I am unable to discuss it further. Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns allowing time for a response during normal business hours. Posts which ignore this warning will be removed without warning and may result in other action in accordance with the Terms of Service. Please review our FAQ for an explanation of this policy.

pstrdebi -> RE: Who will stand? (5/3/2008 11:38:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: deliveredarling If we don't know what we will stand against, how can we confidently say Who we will stand for? If we don't acknowledge sin within the body(ours and others) we are guilty before God. If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything, as it appears many have done within the body of Christ. It is time for the church to rise up. Amen... again! Paul was one of our boldest preachers... he continually took a stand against sin, and a great percentage of the time, he was speaking to the church! There is a country preacher here in the area where we live. We were invited to his home one evening for a function he was having. We were not sure why we were there, but we went to be congenial. He also invited several gentlemen to make up a "make-shift" band along with the pastor. They played several old gospel songs and it ended up being very entertaining. When they were finished... a couple of these gentlemen went outside this pastors front door (it was open due to the warm weather)... and proceeded to smoke pot. The pastor was sitting right there and seemed to not be bothered by this at all. When we were not around other people, we talked to this pastor on several occasions, yet he remained to keep the same attitude regarding the folks like this in his congregation, that "Oh... they'll be ok..." I am still not exactly sure what he means by this... or how he will answer that question at the pearly gates... but this gives us an idea of the complacent attitude that is representitive. We love this pastor and care about him. (we don't attend his functions [&:]) and we pray that he will realize soon that he is doing his parishoners a dis-service. Blessings... Pastor Debi

zamdad -> RE: Who will stand? (5/4/2008 5:53:25 AM)
quote: CherishedbyGod More of my view on taking a "stand" against sin... I would love it if unbelievers and Christians that are struggling with sin would read my devotional Just to show another side Please see post #579... http://forums.christianity.com/m_1230561/mpage_24/tm.htm I read it (579). I can't see why we seem to be so far apart on this issue. I don't think anyone here has been about "exposing" the sin of another. At least, exposing the sin to the rest of the community. If any exposure of sin is taking place, it's letting the person caught in the trap see what others see. You sem to be missing the points made about caring for the person caught in sin, walking along side them, mentoring, discipling, loving them. I get the sense that you are being led by your emotions with regard to this issue. You spoke about being disturbed by how the suicidal woman in the jail was being treated and went on to say that no one who is suicidal should be treated that way. While I can understand your setniments, I also see your reasoning as guided by emotions. I gave the illustration of Joe in an earlier post. There is another man, Fred, who is in his 90's. he was convicted of molesting a girl from the time she was eight until she was 16. Fred says he is a Christian. He carries his Bible with him everywhere and is always reading it. He can quote scripture on demand. He considers himself a travelling evangelist as he hitchhikes about the countryside seeking souls to convert. Fred is very convincing. If I had not gotten to know Fred through working with him in sex offender treatment, I would be convinced he is the real thing. Fred claims he never has a deviant sexual thought about anyone. He says that it is a sin for him to commit such sexual thoughts. Yet, aside from the three women he has been married to, he has had over 20 sexual partners in his life. He has had sex with women he met at dance clubs. Yet, according to Fred, he never had an erotic thought, all these women seduced him. As for his child victim, he claims that she asked him to teach her and that he felt obligated to teach her about sex. While he claims he has no erotic thoughts because it would be an abomination to God, and because he is in his 90's, he also admits to masturbating several times per week to images of watching a father and daughter have sex. As I said, if this was not something I heard come from his mouth as a result of taking the time to get beneath the mask, I would be convinced that Fred is a religous leader with great clout. While he professes to be a true believer in Christ, he usees that persona to gain access to victims. His victims are not just the women he meets, but their children as well. Another man I met through my profession is Ralph. Ralph had been a cocaine addict all of his adult life. He also has three convictions for sex crimes on his record. Ralph found God in jail and came out to begin studying God's word. He was ordained as a minister after his release. Yet, he fell back into cocain use. After being caught with cocaine, he was sent to treatment for the 12th time. He walked away from the treatment center and failed to fill out his sex offender registration. he was caught and jailed for filure to register. When I met with him in the jail, he refused to cooperate with me. he refused to answer my questions. He did, however, want to talk about the Bible. He used the fact that he was an ordained minister to try and get his release from jail. The judge released him and instructed him to go live with his brother. Instead, he skipped the state and was arrested there after raping an 83 year old woman. The point of all this is, that we have to love the lost, but we have to love them enough to let them know we truly care about them and those they come into contact with. We have to be willing to walk the journey with them. If they get knocked down along the way, let them know we're still there and that our hand is out. But, if they continue to choose the wrong path and are insisting on manipulating others, that we will cut them off. If we're led by our emotions, we will get manipulated, used, rejected, and wounded.

RJR_fan -> RE: Who will stand? (5/4/2008 9:02:31 AM)
quote: Isn't it about time for the body of Christ to rise up and take a stand for truth? Home schooling families across the land are doing exactly that. The truth is so valuable that the notion of raising our children in an organized body of lies is unthinkable. Global "concerns" can be a satanic trick to take our eyes off of the obligations and opportunities right at hand. Finding something practical and immediate to do with one's faith can (at least, this is my testimony) do much to decrease fruitless anxieties about "the big picture." As I frequently told myself during the 1990s, and have had to do again more recently, "What happens in MY house is more important than what happens in the White House." You see, I can DO something about what's going on in my house. God's blessings upon my family will continue to have an effect centuries from now, long after dirty political deeds are forgotten.

deliveredarling -> RE: Who will stand? (5/4/2008 9:12:15 AM)
here is a thought that just popped in my head that we might consider exploring..... I'm not saying this is my opinion, it's just a thought. Do we preach the extereme side of Gracy and Mercy because we know we have a certain sin or sins in our life and don't want to call others on their sin because we don't want them calling us on ours? Could this be the problem in our churches? This I'm ok, your ok thing? I'm ok as long as you don't see my sin and your ok as long as I don't see yours? So we preach Grace and Mercy to the point that all sin is ok because no one is looking at it, including themselves.........Ignoring the true message.

pstrdebi -> RE: Who will stand? (5/4/2008 10:58:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RJR_fan quote: Isn't it about time for the body of Christ to rise up and take a stand for truth? Home schooling families across the land are doing exactly that. The truth is so valuable that the notion of raising our children in an organized body of lies is unthinkable. Global "concerns" can be a satanic trick to take our eyes off of the obligations and opportunities right at hand. Finding something practical and immediate to do with one's faith can (at least, this is my testimony) do much to decrease fruitless anxieties about "the big picture." As I frequently told myself during the 1990s, and have had to do again more recently, "What happens in MY house is more important than what happens in the White House." You see, I can DO something about what's going on in my house. God's blessings upon my family will continue to have an effect centuries from now, long after dirty political deeds are forgotten. OH YES!!! I was so excited about your post! It is so true. The little steps we make can take us on long journeys!!! My children were not home schooled... but as I look at the state of society today, I am in complete agreement with my kids to homeschool their children and will actively take part in that. "Global "concerns" can be a satanic trick to take our eyes off of the obligations and opportunities right at hand." My husband just got through saying almost exactly the same thing! God bless you as your and your house serves the Lord... [:D] Pastor Debi

pstrdebi -> RE: Who will stand? (5/4/2008 11:18:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: zamdad quote: CherishedbyGod More of my view on taking a "stand" against sin... I would love it if unbelievers and Christians that are struggling with sin would read my devotional Just to show another side Please see post #579... http://forums.christianity.com/m_1230561/mpage_24/tm.htm I read it (579). I can't see why we seem to be so far apart on this issue. I don't think anyone here has been about "exposing" the sin of another. At least, exposing the sin to the rest of the community. If any exposure of sin is taking place, it's letting the person caught in the trap see what others see. You sem to be missing the points made about caring for the person caught in sin, walking along side them, mentoring, discipling, loving them. I am having trouble with folks who poke at people one second and act like they want to hug you the next. These folks only have one view... and are not willing to see the Bible in it's entirety. quote: I get the sense that you are being led by your emotions with regard to this issue. You spoke about being disturbed by how the suicidal woman in the jail was being treated and went on to say that no one who is suicidal should be treated that way. While I can understand your setniments, I also see your reasoning as guided by emotions. I knew a man once (a meth addict) who tormented his family for 24 years with abuse and mental abuse by continually threatening to take his life. He would go to the extent of designing gnooses in his garage for the family to find... acted as if he was taking bottles of pills when in fact he didn't (no evidence when stomach was pumped) would stand in his 11 year old son's room and threaten to stick devices in electrical outlet in order to kill himself... and much more than I have room for. I knew this poor family personaly... and the man never had any intention of killing himself. It was all a facade in order to gain sympathy and to get action from his family. This couple is divorced now and the children (4 of them) have long time phycological damage. The man is still alive and well and doing drugs. This a sad fact of the "real world" we live in. quote: The point of all this is, that we have to love the lost, but we have to love them enough to let them know we truly care about them and those they come into contact with. We have to be willing to walk the journey with them. If they get knocked down along the way, let them know we're still there and that our hand is out. But, if they continue to choose the wrong path and are insisting on manipulating others, that we will cut them off. If we're led by our emotions, we will get manipulated, used, rejected, and wounded. Amen! Pastor Debi

pstrdebi -> RE: Who will stand? (5/4/2008 11:28:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: deliveredarling here is a thought that just popped in my head that we might consider exploring..... I'm not saying this is my opinion, it's just a thought. Do we preach the extereme side of Gracy and Mercy because we know we have a certain sin or sins in our life and don't want to call others on their sin because we don't want them calling us on ours? Could this be the problem in our churches? This I'm ok, your ok thing? I'm ok as long as you don't see my sin and your ok as long as I don't see yours? So we preach Grace and Mercy to the point that all sin is ok because no one is looking at it, including themselves.........Ignoring the true message. You are exactly right dear delivered... at least as far as I'm concerned. I will stand up and own that line of thinking. And I'm not say that is true for all churches... I am saying that that is more than a possibility. This is what we are seeing in the "user friendly" churches today. In addition, there are folks who will try to justify their own personal sin by looking for and pointing out everyone elses sin. Much love and blessings... Pastor Debi

CherishedbyGod -> RE: Who will stand? (5/4/2008 12:07:45 PM)
I feel the need to give a gentle reminder here. I direct it at myself first. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. 1Corinthians 10:12

pstrdebi -> RE: Who will stand? (5/4/2008 12:26:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CherishedbyGod I feel the need to give a gentle reminder here. I direct it at myself first. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. 1Corinthians 10:12 I am telling you this in love.... You really need to stop this. We know the Bible quite well (as someone mentioned earlier) and we know the pitfalls... that is why we have been gently trying to point them out to you. We have been trying to help you remove the rose colored glasses. Jesus did not wear them... and neither do I. That doesn't mean we don't love... that only means we are aware of the Bible in it's entirety. Much love and blessings Pastor Debi

CherishedbyGod -> RE: Who will stand? (5/4/2008 1:15:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: zamdad I read it (579). I can't see why we seem to be so far apart on this issue. I don't think anyone here has been about "exposing" the sin of another. At least, exposing the sin to the rest of the community. If any exposure of sin is taking place, it's letting the person caught in the trap see what others see. You sem to be missing the points made about caring for the person caught in sin, walking along side them, mentoring, discipling, loving them. I get the sense that you are being led by your emotions with regard to this issue. You spoke about being disturbed by how the suicidal woman in the jail was being treated and went on to say that no one who is suicidal should be treated that way. While I can understand your setniments, I also see your reasoning as guided by emotions. zamdad, Thank you, so much for taking the time to read my devotional. That means alot to me - that you would take the time to try and understand where I am coming from! You are correct, we cannot let our emotions guide us. That is why someone ministering to these people needs a very close walk with the Lord, to be able to discern if someone is just playing games. I am certain God has given that to you because you are in a rough occupation. I am going to re-read your posts because, I am certain I can learn alot from you. Having said that, I am reminded that Jesus Christ of Nazareth was full of emotion when He walked on earth! That is one reason I fell so in love with Him because, after 35 years of being abused myself, when I began studying Him intently, I found a God who understands the deep wounds of my heart. I don't know about dealing with molesters, etc. It is a tragedy, beyond belief. But the great majority of the women I deal with, that are involved in alcohol and drugs have been abused - some with horror stories that are beyond belief by the very type of men you write about. These women have deep, horrendous shame issues to deal with! And shame is an emotion that can send someone to their grave! They drink and use drugs often to hide the pain and hide from the shame of their abuse! Then the downward spiral continues.. I am reading a supurb (secular[;)]) book entitled "Shame, Guilt and Alcoholism - Treatment issues in Clinical Practice" I am also reading a life-changing book entitled "Set Free - God's Healing Power for Abuse Survivors". The stories in there horrendous! I weep when I read them over such abuse these women have endured. The great majority of these women turned to alcohol and drugs to hide the pain and shame. Even Christians! It is not a field to take lightly. If one is not careful, they can send someone further into that downward spiral of shame and to their grave. By taking a stand against sin, if one is not careful, they can pile more shame on a person and sink them deeper into despair. I want to be prepared before I go back to that jail and minister to these women. And, yes, Debi, I had the power of God all over me when I was there the last time. Ladies were coming up and asking me for prayer, saying the presence of God was all over me, ladies wanting my phone number, ladies getting goosebumps after I prayed with them. It was not me. God was there! In a powerful way! That is why I am going back to them, because part of my ministry is to minister to those who are so desperate for a touch of kindness and are desperate to be set free from their prisons of shame.

deliveredarling -> RE: Who will stand? (5/4/2008 2:53:48 PM)
ladies wanting my phone number,[/quote] Whatever else you do with these women, please do not give them any personal information. I can personally tell you horror stories about this!!!!! This would be a very dangerous mistake, not only for you, but your family as well.

deliveredarling -> RE: Who will stand? (5/4/2008 2:55:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CherishedbyGod quote: By taking a stand against sin, if one is not careful, they can pile more shame on a person and sink them deeper into despair. When we realize that we are responsible for our feelings as well as our actions we will be free. Nobody can shame me, or make me feel anything. The HS convicts me, not people. Not that He doesn't use people because He does. However, i know the difference between guilt trips and manipulations. Confronting sin, is not heaping shame and guilt on anyone. Besides if they were doing something right, then would would they have to feel guilty or shameful about. That particular quote advocates keeping sin secret. From experience here:Secrets keep you sick.

CherishedbyGod -> RE: Who will stand? (5/4/2008 2:56:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: deliveredarling ladies wanting my phone number, Whatever else you do with these women, please do not give them any personal information. I can personally tell you horror stories about this!!!!! This would be a very dangerous mistake, not only for you, but your family as well. Thank you for that warning. What about E-mail?

deliveredarling -> RE: Who will stand? (5/4/2008 3:15:17 PM)
I don't even know that I would do the e-mail. Handwriting is ok, if you use a po box or church address. They can use any personal information and do you harm. they should never, ever know where you live. I had a lady become a stalker with me. Fortunately she did not know where i lived. However, she did find my address somehow and still writes me letters. Her phone number is now blocked. I made the mistake of getting too up close and personal. My life and my families was literally turned upside down for months. I still have concerns about her knowing my address. At the shelter, I had made sure these women had access to me, if they ever needed it. My concern for their well being overrode my judgment for my families concern. I lived and learned and I won't make that mistake again.

CherishedbyGod -> RE: Who will stand? (5/4/2008 6:37:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: deliveredarling I don't even know that I would do the e-mail. Handwriting is ok, if you use a po box or church address. They can use any personal information and do you harm. they should never, ever know where you live. I had a lady become a stalker with me. Fortunately she did not know where i lived. However, she did find my address somehow and still writes me letters. Her phone number is now blocked. I made the mistake of getting too up close and personal. My life and my families was literally turned upside down for months. I still have concerns about her knowing my address. At the shelter, I had made sure these women had access to me, if they ever needed it. My concern for their well being overrode my judgment for my families concern. I lived and learned and I won't make that mistake again. That is horrible that you have had to go through that. How frightening! I am certain there are alot of other things I can learn from you, you being in the field yourself. It is not an easy calling but then most callings are not easy[8\|] Thanks again for your information! CherishedbyGod

SonInMe1 -> RE: Who will stand? (5/4/2008 6:44:16 PM)
Matthew 18:15-18 quote: "If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 18:16 But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' 18:17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. 18:18 "I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. All of this talk about rebuking and correction and not one mention of the biblical procedure?? Zamdad....you do incredible work. I want to thank you for your commitment to a vocation that at times must be very frustrating but has great social value. I want to ask, do you have any success stories to share? Someone who has changed their lives around after being confronted with their sin? ( Can't imagine being in jail and not at least acknowledging a mistake being made )

CherishedbyGod -> RE: Who will stand? (5/4/2008 6:51:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SonInMe1 Matthew 18:15-18 quote: "If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 18:16 But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' 18:17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. 18:18 "I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. All of this talk about rebuking and correction and not one mention of the biblical procedure?? Zamdad....you do incredible work. I want to thank you for your commitment to a vocation that at times must be very frustrating but has great social value. I want to ask, do you have any success stories to share? Someone who has changed their lives around after being confronted with their sin? ( Can't imagine being in jail and not at least acknowledging a mistake being made ) Good point. I had a long thread going on about those verses in the Theo section. I learned alot of valuable, Biblical, wisdom. I love it down in that section. They are very gentle and patient with me even tho they are often way over my head[8D] I agree about zamdad's employ. I am certain he has seen more than most of us will, gratefully, ever see. Very, very sad and tragic things that go on in this dark world[>:]

pstrdebi -> RE: Who will stand? (5/4/2008 7:44:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SonInMe1 Matthew 18:15-18 quote: "If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 18:16 But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' 18:17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. 18:18 "I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. All of this talk about rebuking and correction and not one mention of the biblical procedure?? You are so right about biblical procedure... the key is in verse 15... and in most cases, the person doesn't listen. They don't because they don't want anyone telling they are wrong and their defensive actions kick in. Even after following verse 16 there are still many that are stubborn. People just don't want to hear what they don't want to hear. Pastor Debi

deliveredarling -> RE: Who will stand? (5/4/2008 7:57:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: deliveredarling I expressed this same sentiment on another thread using myself as the example. This is the crux of our nature. We love xyz more than we love Christ. Dare I say we all have areas in our life that this applies? If we were all absolutely perfect, then why would there be a journey? The point of standing up is to glorify Christ. When He allows us to overcome xyz in our life, we stand up and praise God. We then can stand up and say, "This is what God did for me, you are eligble too. Let me walk with you through this." If they too desire to have what we have, they will walk side by side, if not, they will reject it and you. Not at all meaning that they don't desire it, they just don't desire it enough right now. There are areas in my life that this applies too. If we are ever changing and ever growing in the Lord, then we experience this. It is Him bringing to the forefront of our minds, our own sin that we must deal with before we can help another in that area. The head knowledge and the heart knowledge meet right here. We can have all the knowledge in the world and it avails us nothing. When He makes the connection in us, it avails much. Things become clearer and understanding has taken place and we begin to walk it out in our lives. We have stopped being mere hearers only and begin being doers also. Standing up against sin, is not supposed to be finger pointing. How do we stand by and let it corrupt our churches, youth groups, Bible studies? Can we really grow and learn sitting underneath a teacher or minister we know who is in a state of continuous sin. Unwilling to even acknowledge it, much less repent? I personally can't. I've seen it happen and my skin crawls. Yet do I not bear a certain amount of responsibility in confronting my brother or sister with this sin? Do they not bear the same burden of responsibility for me? If we are not encouraging ach other in this manner, are we really standing up for anything or just what we think is right or wrong. If we stand for it we must be willing to apply it to ourselves as well. "Rules" don't just apply for everyone else. quote: Yet do I not bear a certain amount of responsibility in confronting my brother or sister with this sin? I did mention the biblical principal right here in bold. Some just didn't want to see it for what it is.

deliveredarling -> RE: Who will stand? (5/4/2008 7:58:35 PM)
And I mentioned many other biblical principal that have been missed along the way as well.[&o]

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