RE: Who will stand?

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SonInMe1 -> RE: Who will stand? (5/6/2008 8:36:11 PM)
I wonder if we would have the sin we have IF there was true accountability in the church. It is kinda hard to have accountability by...yourself.

delete123 -> RE: Who will stand? (5/6/2008 8:43:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: deliveredarling crh, did you read the previous posts? I think the majority of the ones who are posting on this thread work with these people. We aren't looking down our noses at them, it's exactly the opposite. Most of us are in unity here. Is the "church" as a whole. No, I can't say that it is. We are standing for sound doctrine. Just because Jesus is said during a sermon, doesn't mean it is the Jesus of the Bible. This is what we are standing for-sound doctrine rather than easy believing. Nope~ Sorry Delivered I have not. I usually post my reply and when I get a chance will read what other posters have to say. I quoted pastor Debs o/p with my answer and then replied to yours. I just know like in my neighborhood, that people look down on the homeless. We do not even have a shelter, the new governor does not allow it. Frankly he would like to see me move, which I plan on anyways. He is trying to make our city/town a sleepy one. Push the impoverish, homeless, etc... elsewhere and move in the semi conservitative folks in and his kind (yup another homosexual rep.) I guess Barney Frank couldn't leave his hotdogs at the stand! [:'(] Ok so I have bad humor CRH ps: I should state It not that I don't want to read them, but I have a 2 y/o that doesn't always allow for that [:D]

deliveredarling -> RE: Who will stand? (5/6/2008 8:52:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SonInMe1 I wonder if we would have the sin we have IF there was true accountability in the church. It is kinda hard to have accountability by...yourself. I think our churches would be a whole lot less full, if that were the case. A whole lot less sin in the body, too. Certainly, nobody would want to get caught![:D]

CherishedbyGod -> RE: Who will stand? (5/6/2008 9:02:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: deliveredarling Just because Jesus is said during a sermon, doesn't mean it is the Jesus of the Bible. Amen! Well said!

Liveloved -> RE: Who will stand? (5/6/2008 10:10:57 PM)
quote: I wonder if we would have the sin we have IF there was true accountability in the church. We would. But it would be confessed, repented of and forgiven. There would be true fellowship because of this kind of reality. If we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. I John 1:7 It's been His idea from the beginning. We're just slow and resistant learners.[:)] But we can always begin again and try to get it right.[8\|]

Walker311 -> RE: Who will stand? (5/6/2008 10:43:23 PM)
The Holy Spirit does a very good job of holding us accountable. In fact, being accountable to another soul is less painful.

zamdad -> RE: Who will stand? (5/7/2008 12:16:27 AM)
quote: zamdad, Thank you, so much for taking the time to read my devotional. That means alot to me - that you would take the time to try and understand where I am coming from! You're welcome. quote: Having said that, I am reminded that Jesus Christ of Nazareth was full of emotion when He walked on earth! That is one reason I fell so in love with Him because, after 35 years of being abused myself, when I began studying Him intently, I found a God who understands the deep wounds of my heart. I don't know about dealing with molesters, etc. It is a tragedy, beyond belief. But the great majority of the women I deal with, that are involved in alcohol and drugs have been abused - some with horror stories that are beyond belief by the very type of men you write about. These women have deep, horrendous shame issues to deal with! And shame is an emotion that can send someone to their grave! They drink and use drugs often to hide the pain and hide from the shame of their abuse! I have no doubt that Jesus was an emotional person. However, He being perfect, sinless, had his emotions in balance. This is just an observation. Over the course of my career I have worked with many victims advocates. Most of the offenders I've worked with have been abused at some point in their lives. I have also worked with victims. While my work with the victims is not as extensive, in the reports I presented to the courts I had to convey the trauma the victim suffered and address how to help the victim heal. One of the concerns I have with victim advocates is that they hear the victims side only and will nearly go to the grave for their clients not wanting to hear the rest of the story or see the bigger picture. They will use lines like You don't understand, you've never been a victim. How would they know? They know nothing about the person they say this to and they know just as much about the person they are advocating for. Yes, they have a job to do. But, instead of promoting healing and reconciliation all around, they become anoter piece on the chessboard of the adversarial process. I think many of the social problems we have in our world are a result of mental, physical, sexual and spiritual abuse. We don't know how to love each other as Christ loves us. There are many things that get in the way such our pride. Another part of it is that we all too often get a defintion of love that equates to peace and order as opposed to being in relationship with God. Sometimes being in the center of God's will is a very difficult place. We compromise being in the center of His will when we choose momentary peace and order over God.

pstrdebi -> RE: Who will stand? (5/7/2008 12:26:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crh737 It's easy to understand. Why can't we stand and agree for each other and support one another. Everyone has a passion that is Christward, but instead of debating of what is "more "important", they should all be counted as important. There are many that we can be in agreement with as long as they are like minded. We cannot and must not, be in agreement with those who doctrine and beliefs are not in line with the Word of God. quote: It's not all happening in a church building, there are people outside of the church building who are actually working towards a unity. To be quite honest, I know that some folks here are thinking of the homeless, addicts, etc.... however, I think that some have a different view of unity.... and that is not always in line with the Word of God as well. That is a whole different topic. quote: God's church is not a building, God's church is the world, however broekn as it is: John3:16 God so loved the World The church is not the world. The church is the BODY of Christ. The Body of Christ is in the world, but not of the world. John 3:16 is refering to people... God loved all the people of the world. Jesus told us "love not the world" 1 John 2:15-18 says, "Do not love the world, or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world and the world is passing away, and the lusts of it. But he who does the will of God abides forever." quote: Yet denominations can not see past their brothers beliefs, that it has driven a sword into what should be a building the unity, instead it has created segregation in which folks refuse to work together in spite of their belief. The belief should be One in the Spirit! Instead we have the belief of One in WE BELIEVE to be right, yet refuse to work together! There are very many good denominations... and we would be amiss if we begin putting them down just because they don't do everything the way we think they should. I will try to say this carefully... When we start getting to far over the edge of cross-denominations... we begin wading in water that is un-biblical... such as, a one-world religion. quote: But that won't happen because everyone wants to strive for the position of John or James/ hence the Right or the (God forbid) left side James. I'm not sure that anyone is vying for any position... I think most Christians today are focusing on getting there and hearing "well done." I believe the only ones vying for positions are the cult religions. God tells us to fellowship in the assembly... and He tells us not to forsake the assembly. Once again, we cannot take pieces of the Bible we want that suite our thinking. We need to obey God's Word... and His Word is the entire Bible. If we forsake the assembling together... the fellowship of man.... breaking bread together... then we are cutting off our nose to spite our face. Blessings... Pastor Debi

pstrdebi -> RE: Who will stand? (5/7/2008 12:28:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: deliveredarling This is what we are standing for-sound doctrine rather than easy believing. AMEN!!! [:D]

SonInMe1 -> RE: Who will stand? (5/7/2008 7:48:09 AM)
There are churches out there with some pretty poor doctrine...but with good fruit. There are churches out there with some pretty sound doctrine...with poor fruit. That is why I take fruit over doctrine....unless its a core issue. Most doctrine is about the small stuff. I think we get more excited over pre trib and post trib than helping people and being the light in the world. Unity is NOT conformity of thought. Unity is agreement on the big issues and not letting the smaller issues get in the way of the goal. If we all have to think one way...nothing will get done. Who do you think will have more treasures in hevaen? Some christian who has the same doctrine you do and does nothing for God or someone who has a completely different doctrine but believes in the core issues ( Christ, the cross, attonement raised to life ) and has great fruit. I think it IS very important to take a stand, but lets not get so focused on the rules we forget the reason for the rules, Jesus Christ.

deliveredarling -> RE: Who will stand? (5/7/2008 8:15:28 AM)
Who is focusing on rules?

delete123 -> RE: Who will stand? (5/7/2008 9:34:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pstrdebi God tells us to fellowship in the assembly... and He tells us not to forsake the assembly. Once again, we cannot take pieces of the Bible we want that suite our thinking. We need to obey God's Word... and His Word is the entire Bible. If we forsake the assembling together... the fellowship of man.... breaking bread together... then we are cutting off our nose to spite our face. Blessings... Pastor Debi That Hebrew verse you and most quote is a dispensational verse and fellowship does not again mean a church bldg. I can have a bible study in my home or walk over to a Christian friend and have a discussion and that is still considered fellowship. I agree the world is a lost and dying place and you seem to miss was I was saying. All people were designed to worship God and that is what many of them is missing. CRH

Liveloved -> RE: Who will stand? (5/7/2008 10:28:43 AM)
quote: We don't know how to love each other as Christ loves us. There are many things that get in the way such our pride. I won't quote your entire post, Zamdad, but I read it more than once---it is worthy of repetition. Thank you. We don't know how to love and pride is the biggest obstacle. The body of Christ as Paul described in I Cor 12 appreciates and honors the differences among the members, recognizing that ALL are needful in order for the body to function properly. God gave us different temperaments and gifts for His glory. And we spend alot of time and energy trying to snuff out smoldering wicks instead of building one another up. If we stood against our own sin, practicing truth, and loved our brothers and sisters as Christ has commanded us to, we would be living love and truth to a lost and dying world. Jesus is the need of the church as well as the lost. I'm praying for the church to arise and return to its first love.

Dakotasunbeam -> RE: Who will stand? (5/7/2008 12:29:41 PM)
quote: SonInMe wrote: There are churches out there with some pretty poor doctrine...but with good fruit. There are churches out there with some pretty sound doctrine...with poor fruit. This is just patently wrong. I had to respond. If what you say is true, then what Jesus Christ says is false: Ye shall know them by their fruits . Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. --Matthew 7:16-20. By saying that you can have good fruit with poor doctrine, it is the equivalent of saying, "You can have a corrupt tree with good fruit." Jesus did not think or say that was the case. If we present anything else, it is a false doctrine. That is a false doctrine, btw, to say that poor doctrine can bring forth good fruit. If you are looking at works, good deeds, youth ministries, financial/social prosperity, small groups, and singles cells, outreach programs, you might well not know what kind of fruit Jesus Christ is speaking about. There are churches out there who canvas the mean streets of urban USA "spreading the gospel of easybelievism," thinking they are doing "the Lord's work." Many think they are "on fire" for God. But what does it profit a man being told a diluted "gospel," or being presented "another Jesus?" He's probably worse off now than before. All kinds of abhorrent individuals sit in their pews, year after year with not one moment of conversion, dropping bills into a collection plate, attending bake-sales, and devouring the weak in the faith at the same time. This is one reason why you hear so many horror stories about people being abused merciliessly IN CHURCH. In a church operated under the auspices of the Holy Spirit, by God-fearing men/women, such a thing would be squashed out after a while. There would not be this sense of predetory hovering somewhere in the church where believers cannot be transparent and share and grow together. There would be love. I'll bet dollars to donuts, if you could know with certainty who all of the real followers of Christ were, and could gather them out of anyone's 10,000 member mega church, you'd probably have about 100 people. It might be less . . . I think of Lot who couldn't find just ONE righteous man to save a CITY of thousands! A METROPOLIS no less. The Way is NARROW. And Jesus Christ has given us all of the tools to fight and struggle our way through life into the Kingdom. But to say that you can get good fruit from a bad tree, is to throw one of those necessary tools away and create "another gospel," that tickles iching ears, but ultimately leaves the runner outside in the cold. Now that is BAD doctrine. And do you not know, bad doctrine can get you killed? I mean, for eternity! Who will stand? Those who really do what's in their Bibles, meditate day and night, read, pray, fast, worship, praise, love, rebuke, exhort, struggle, stand! Read 2nd Peter. It's a great read. You've got to really, really want to get into the Kindgom of Heaven. There won't be any lazy Christians in heaven. God is not grading on the curve. He's looking at our heart. And He sent His Servant, Jesus Christ to tell us how to get there.

pstrdebi -> RE: Who will stand? (5/7/2008 12:55:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SonInMe1 There are churches out there with some pretty poor doctrine...but with good fruit. There are churches out there with some pretty sound doctrine...with poor fruit. That is why I take fruit over doctrine....unless its a core issue. Most doctrine is about the small stuff. I think we get more excited over pre trib and post trib than helping people and being the light in the world. Well, this is pretty much what we/I've been talking about. If their is poor fruit... somethings wrong. If their is poor doctrine, somethings wrong. And once again... we come to that fork in the road where folks are choosing to go one way or the other in the Word. You can't choose fruit or doctrine... Jesus said we need both! Proverbs 4:2, "For I give you good doctrine, do not forsake my law." John 7:10, "...My doctrine is not My own, but His who sent Me. If anyone wills to do His will (fruit), he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority." 2 Tim 3:10, "But you have carefully followed my doctrine..." (the doctrine Jesus taught.) But then Paul goes on to say in 2 Tim 4:3, "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their OWN desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears frm the truth, and be turned aside to fables." This is where we are today. People choose from the Bible whatever suites them. If you are not holding to the doctrine of the Bible, or no doctrine what-so-ever... you are spoken about in Revelations. quote: Unity is NOT conformity of thought. Unity is agreement on the big issues and not letting the smaller issues get in the way of the goal. If we all have to think one way...nothing will get done. I am seeing a bigger issue here, which I addressed. Unity can become conformity if folks are not grounded in the Word and in sound doctrine. That is why I said, "When we start getting too far over the edge of cross-denominations... we begin wading in water that is un-biblical... such as, a one-world religion." This has been prophesied, and we need to be aware. I also said that was a topic for another thread. quote: Who do you think will have more treasures in hevaen? Some christian who has the same doctrine you do and does nothing for God or someone who has a completely different doctrine but believes in the core issues ( Christ, the cross, attonement raised to life ) and has great fruit. Once again, I believe God wants both. That is exactly why He said that He is "coming back for a church without spot or wrinkle." Hence, the reason for my post and the original topic. [:)] quote: I think it IS very important to take a stand, but lets not get so focused on the rules we forget the reason for the rules, Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ (God) made the rules... and HE directs us to focus on them and follow them. I will not be a lukewarm church. Blessings... Pastor Debi

pstrdebi -> RE: Who will stand? (5/7/2008 1:17:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dakotasunbeam quote: SonInMe wrote: There are churches out there with some pretty poor doctrine...but with good fruit. There are churches out there with some pretty sound doctrine...with poor fruit. This is just patently wrong. I had to respond. If what you say is true, then what Jesus Christ says is false: Ye shall know them by their fruits . Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. --Matthew 7:16-20. By saying that you can have good fruit with poor doctrine, it is the equivalent of saying, "You can have a corrupt tree with good fruit." Jesus did not think or say that was the case. If we present anything else, it is a false doctrine. That is a false doctrine, btw, to say that poor doctrine can bring forth good fruit. If you are looking at works, good deeds, youth ministries, financial/social prosperity, small groups, and singles cells, outreach programs, you might well not know what kind of fruit Jesus Christ is speaking about. There are churches out there who canvas the mean streets of urban USA "spreading the gospel of easybelievism," thinking they are doing "the Lord's work." Many think they are "on fire" for God. But what does it profit a man being told a diluted "gospel," or being presented "another Jesus?" He's probably worse off now than before. All kinds of abhorrent individuals sit in their pews, year after year with not one moment of conversion, dropping bills into a collection plate, attending bake-sales, and devouring the weak in the faith at the same time. This is one reason why you hear so many horror stories about people being abused merciliessly IN CHURCH. In a church operated under the auspices of the Holy Spirit, by God-fearing men/women, such a thing would be squashed out after a while. There would not be this sense of predetory hovering somewhere in the church where believers cannot be transparent and share and grow together. There would be love. I'll bet dollars to donuts, if you could know with certainty who all of the real followers of Christ were, and could gather them out of anyone's 10,000 member mega church, you'd probably have about 100 people. It might be less . . . I think of Lot who couldn't find just ONE righteous man to save a CITY of thousands! A METROPOLIS no less. The Way is NARROW. And Jesus Christ has given us all of the tools to fight and struggle our way through life into the Kingdom. But to say that you can get good fruit from a bad tree, is to throw one of those necessary tools away and create "another gospel," that tickles iching ears, but ultimately leaves the runner outside in the cold. Now that is BAD doctrine. And do you not know, bad doctrine can get you killed? I mean, for eternity! Who will stand? Those who really do what's in their Bibles, meditate day and night, read, pray, fast, worship, praise, love, rebuke, exhort, struggle, stand! Read 2nd Peter. It's a great read. You've got to really, really want to get into the Kindgom of Heaven. There won't be any lazy Christians in heaven. God is not grading on the curve. He's looking at our heart. And He sent His Servant, Jesus Christ to tell us how to get there. "WAH-HOOOOOOO!!!!!! [sm=dance.gif] and Amen! Lord bless you Dakotasunbeam! Pastor Debi

Dakotasunbeam -> RE: Who will stand? (5/7/2008 1:22:54 PM)
Thanks, Pastor Debi!

CherishedbyGod -> RE: Who will stand? (5/7/2008 7:28:18 PM)
Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand Romans 14: 4 I am so grateful that my standing is dependant upon God and not on other Christians pointing out my sins[:)]

CherishedbyGod -> RE: Who will stand? (5/7/2008 7:38:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Walker311 The Holy Spirit does a very good job of holding us accountable. This is so true. "Judge not, that ye be not judged." Matthew 7:1 "Jesus says regarding judging - Don't. The average Christian is the most penetratingly critical individual. Criticism is a part of the ordinary faculty of man; but in the spiritual domain nothing is accomplished by criticism. The effect of criticism is a dividing up of the powers of the one criticized; the Holy Ghost is the only One in the true position to criticize, He alone is able to show what is wrong without hurting and wounding. It is impossible to enter into communion with God when you are in a critical temper; it makes you hard and vindictive and cruel, and leaves you with the flattering unction that you are a superior person." Oswald Chamber... For the remainder of this devotional, please click below... http://www.myutmost.org/06/0617.html

SonInMe1 -> RE: Who will stand? (5/7/2008 9:23:25 PM)
Ok, since good doctrine promotes good fruit, please tell me what good doctrine is. I'll bet if we each listed all of our doctrinal beliefs, it would spark huge debates....and that is my point. No one has perfect doctrine and God knows that. Its not doctrine that describes a christian or those list of fruits in Galatians would have rules instead of...actions. Jesus would not have summed up the commandments by saying love God and love others like yourself if the Law truly fulfilled our walks. quote: quote: SonInMe wrote: There are churches out there with some pretty poor doctrine...but with good fruit. There are churches out there with some pretty sound doctrine...with poor fruit. This is just patently wrong. I had to respond. If what you say is true, then what Jesus Christ says is false ...and it would be false if the rest of my post wasn't taken into account. quote: That is why I take fruit over doctrine....unless its a core issue. Most doctrine is about the small stuff. I think we get more excited over pre trib and post trib than helping people and being the light in the world. I would think it dangerous to put our doctrine over acting like Christ. Let me give an example of what I am saying. I disagree doctrinally with Catholicism. Its essentially a works based religion and doctrinally, very bad...but...there are many catholics with great fruit. Ya just can't shoot down Mother Teresa...ya know? quote: Ye shall know them by their fruits . Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. --Matthew 7:16-20. This makes my point. You cannot equate good tree to doctrine. You can equate salvation to good fruit and that is what is being said here. A saved person will have results of that salvation...fruits. Obviously since there are many doctrines out there...something like 20,000 christian denominations...and many of those "other" christians also have great fruit, its not all about doctrine...now is it? quote: "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their OWN desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears frm the truth, and be turned aside to fables." You talk of unity but use these verses for division. If you can define what "good doctrine" is and we all can agree on what that is, then you might have a point.....good luck. Now, this is core to my staements about doctrine and everything I have posted about this subject MUST hinge on this so, if you comment, please include this....the little stuff is the little stuff but there are big doctrinal issues we must all believe to BE christians. Christ as Lord, the perfect sacrifice for attonement and risen to life again. quote: That is exactly why He said that He is "coming back for a church without spot or wrinkle. There ain't none. No perfect doctrine or church. What there is, is....the Blood, which is our covering and even more, our final attonement for sins. A church in Christ is perfected by Christ...not our doctrine or any work from ourselves. quote: I will not be a lukewarm church. That is good. I fully believe that if you believe something you should believe it with all your heart. You should examine what you believe daily for accuracy. You should have sound beliefs based on the bible. Ya just can't worship your beliefs. That is what the pharesees did. They put their doctrine over God. God is bigger than what we can concieve and while the bible does a good job of telling us who God is and how we are to have a relationship with Him and others, God is still beyond our ability to understand and His ways are impossible to know fully. To me, that is a big factor why there are so many doctrines. I was taught that some doctrines are cults. I believed it. Then, I got in the real world. Yep, there is a lot of bad doctrine out there and it doesn;t do christianity much good. Those truly bad doctrines, like wicca, will have certain fruits because they...are not saved. I can't say all bad doctrinal churches don't have any saved people in them. Is this your point? It probably isn't, but this is what your sounding like....if you don't follow my doctrine, you are not saved and cannot have good fruits. That...is wrong.

deliveredarling -> RE: Who will stand? (5/7/2008 9:50:39 PM)
Oh how I just love it when people start tossing out the "judging" scriptures....As if they don't sound the least bit judgmental and condemning while they are tossing them around. Let the lightbulb go off folks! We have to judge! We are told to use righteous judgment. God gave us a brain and He gave us His word as a tool to measure by. If it doesn't line up with the Word of God-It's BAD> Pretty simple. It seems to me that people want to believe that God has them on some kind of puppet string and He dances us around and takes our steps for us . Please people! That brain He gave you, He expects you to use it-wisely. That means learn the scriptures, discover the truth. I can tell you this, if you don't know the truth, then you can't know the false. Paul tells us in 1 Cor. that God judges those who are outside of the church and we are to judge those within. Now what do you think He meant? I believe it was to keep the church safe from the heretics..........

HisCovenant -> RE: Who will stand? (5/7/2008 10:08:03 PM)
Exactly. I started to post something similar earlier and deleted it. Judging is Biblical. Not Judging wholesale is not. There are times when judging is wrong and attitudes it should not be done with, but there are times when it is Biblical.

pstrdebi -> RE: Who will stand? (5/8/2008 1:01:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SonInMe1 Ok, since good doctrine promotes good fruit, please tell me what good doctrine is. I'll bet if we each listed all of our doctrinal beliefs, it would spark huge debates....and that is my point. No one has perfect doctrine and God knows that. Good doctrine is the doctrine of the Bible... the doctrine that all who call themselves "Christian" should be holding to... the same doctrine you are claiming by signing on to this site; ie: FaithWalk - Protestants Only This folder is only for PROTESTANT CONSERVATIVE EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANS who agree with the Statement of Faith and the Range of Doctrine. Moderators Forums Moderators I am not condoning man-made doctrines, however many many churches across America hold to the doctines of the Bible... if they are not, then Take A Stand against them, not us. quote: I disagree doctrinally with Catholicism. Its essentially a works based religion and doctrinally, very bad...but...there are many catholics with great fruit. Ya just can't shoot down Mother Teresa...ya know? First, and I've said it before, we should not condemn or put-down or talk poorly about... any God fearing denomination. Secondly, there are many Charismatic Catholic Churches across America who ARE doctrinaly sound, just the same as there are Christian Churches that are not doctrinaly sound. quote: This makes my point. You cannot equate good tree to doctrine. You can equate salvation to good fruit and that is what is being said here. A saved person will have results of that salvation...fruits. Wrong... a good tree will bear good fruit because they have listened to the sound biblical doctrine. quote: quote: "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their OWN desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears frm the truth, and be turned aside to fables." You talk of unity but use these verses for division. If you can define what "good doctrine" is and we all can agree on what that is, then you might have a point.....good luck. I am not sure what you are thinking. There is unity of the body when folks are "like-minded"... when they DO endure sound doctrine. The verse only speaks of division in as much as, the folks who will NOT endure sound doctrine divide themselves by following after false doctrine. And... I don't need luck... I have the Word. You will find my paper below. quote: quote: That is exactly why He said that He is "coming back for a church without spot or wrinkle. There ain't none. No perfect doctrine or church. What there is, is....the Blood, which is our covering and even more, our final attonement for sins. A church in Christ is perfected by Christ...not our doctrine or any work from ourselves. If there isn't any... that would make Christ a liar... and no-reason for Him to return. BTW, the "church" is the body of Christ. quote: I can't say all bad doctrinal churches don't have any saved people in them. Is this your point? It probably isn't, but this is what your sounding like....if you don't follow my doctrine, you are not saved and cannot have good fruits. That...is wrong. That is not what anyone is saying. We're saying folks need to follow the doctrine of Christ. That does not exclude them from church or salvation. Just the same as some believe you need to have a seperate baptism of the Holy Spirit... that doesn't mean they are not saved. (If you have comments on the last statement, please start a new thread... everyone keeps going off-topic) Christian Doctrine: The Bible itself reveals those doctrines that are essential to the Christian faith. They are 1) the Deity of Christ, 2) Salvation by Grace, and 3) Resurrection of Christ, 4) the gospel, and 5) monotheism. These are the doctrines the Bible says are necessary. Though there are many other important doctrines, these five are the ones that are declared by Scripture to be essential. A non-regenerate person (i.e., Mormon or Jehovah's Witness, atheist, Muslim) these are considered cults, and they will deny one or more of these essential doctrines. Please note that there are other derivative doctrines of scripture that become necessary also, the Trinity being one. Basic Christian Doctrine - a brief description There is only one God - Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8; John 17:3; 1 Cor. 8:5-6; Gal. 4:8-9 God is a Trinity - 2 Cor. 13:14; 1 Pet. 1:2 There are no Gods before or after God - Isaiah 43:10 God knows all things - 1 John 3:20 God is all powerful - Psalm 115:3 God is everywhere - Jer. 23:23,24 God is sovereign - Zech. 9:14; 1 Tim. 6:15-16 God is spirit - John 4:24 God created all that exists - Gen. 1:1; Isaiah 44:24 Spirit does not have a body of flesh and bones - Luke 24:39 God has always been God - Psalm 90:2 Jesus is God - John 1:1,14; 10:30-33; 20:28; Col. 2:9; Phil. 2:5-8; Heb. 1:8 Jesus became a man - Phil. 2:5-8 Jesus has two natures: divine and human - Col. 2:9; 1 Tim. 2:5 Jesus was sinless - 1 Pet. 2:22 Jesus is the only way to God the Father - John 14:6; Matt. 11:27; Luke 10:22 The Holy Spirit is God - Acts 5:3-4 The Holy Spirit is not a force. He is alive - Acts 13:2 The Bible is inspired by God - 2 Tim. 3:16 All people have sinned - Rom. 3:23, 5:12 Man did not evolve, he was created - Gen. 1:26 Adam and Eve were real people - Gen. 3:20; 5:1; 1 Tim. 2:13 Death entered the world because of Adam's sin - Rom. 5:12-15 Sin separates us from God - Isaiah 59:2 Jesus died for all our sins - 1 John 2:2; 2 Cor. 5:14; 1 Pet. 2:24 Jesus' sacrifice was a substitution, for us - 1 Pet. 2:24 Jesus rose from the dead in His physical body - John 2:19-21 Those who reject Jesus will go to Hell - Rev. 20:11-15 Hell is a place of fiery punishment - Matt. 25:41; Rev. 19:20 Hell is eternal - Matt. 25:46 The unsaved go to hell forever - Rev. 21:8 Salvation is a free gift of God - Rom. 4:5; 6:23; Eph. 2:8-9 The Bible is the Word of God - 2 Tim. 3:16 Jesus will return visibly to earth - Acts 1:11 Christians will be raised from the dead when Jesus returns - 1 Thess. 4:14-17 There will be a rapture (being caught up into the clouds with Jesus) - 1 Thess. 4:14-17 There will be a final judgment - 2 Pet. 3:7 The damned will be thrown into a lake of fire - Rev. 20:15 Satan will be cast into the lake of fire - Rev. 20:10 There will be a new heavens and a new earth - 2 Pet. 3:13; Rev. 21:1 If you would like more in-depth info... please email me. Blessings... Pastor Debi

deliveredarling -> RE: Who will stand? (5/8/2008 6:23:06 AM)
Just to clear this up real quick: 1Cr 5:11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one. 1Cr 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within {the church?} 1Cr 5:13 But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES. Here is what Jesus says in regards to righteous judgment: Jhn 7:24 "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment." We are to make good decisions-this is judgment. I think it is more more sad to try to present a different Jesus than The Jesus of the Bible. That is the a problem within the body that we are to make judgments about. As you have seen in this very thread-the bad fruit displayed from people making up a Jesus that conforms to their ideas and not Jesus as presented biblically. And Yes I do take stands against this and will continue to do so every opportunity that I can. [Edited by moderator]

SonInMe1 -> RE: Who will stand? (5/8/2008 7:48:21 AM)
quote: If it doesn't line up with the Word of God-It's BAD> Pretty simple. Absolutely. We all agree exactly what the word says too. Right down to every period and comma. Uh huh. quote: We have to judge! Yes, and to what end? Why do we judge our brethern? quote: Judging is Biblical Yes it is....and I prefer discernment. To me, to judge means a final decision has been made. The facts are weighed and an undeterable proclamation is made. Discernment, to me, means we use wisdom to differentiate between good and evil but we leave the final decision to God. We can make decisons, no question but not final binding ones. Fpr example...the immoral brother. Now if the church judged him, he would never be allowed to come back into fellowship....but that is not what the bible says we are to do. Yes, a decision, guided by discernment, was made. He was kicked out of fellowship so satan can work on him, so he might be reconciled. He wasn't judgeed as evil and kicked out forever...a judgement. He was found immoral, kicked out for a reason and that was reconcilliation. It might be splitting hairs here but I do think there is a difference between discernment and judgement.

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