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RE: Boundaries of respect and courtesy - 4/30/2008 8:15:12 PM
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NotDoneYet
Posts: 93
Joined: 12/11/2007
From: Virginia
Status: offline
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It seems these are toxic people. Unfortunately, the best thing to do would be to completely get away from them. It isn't easy, especially when it is family...
However...you wouldn't take that kind of stuff from a "friend" or a co-worker, or someone at church, would you? Then why are you taking it from them? Time to show them the door. PERIOD. Close the door and don't EVER open it again...
NDY
_____________________________
Remember, normal is just a setting on the dryer!
Ranting and raving: diaryofaravingmom.blogspot.com
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RE: Boundaries of respect and courtesy - 5/1/2008 7:49:59 AM
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kburrow
Posts: 23
Joined: 5/3/2005
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Dear Sunnymom,
I'm sorry to hear of your situation. I am happy to hear you and your husband are doing the right thing, he to protect his family and you to support him and protect the kids.
I've been where you are, both as parent and child. My long story is in past posts. You might find this site helpful: www.facing-the-facts.net. You may be dealing with personality disordered people. They do not respond logically. It may be helpful to you to "talk" online to others of us who have also had relatives from Oz.
"Understanding the Borderline Parent" is an excellent book. Also, "Toxic Parents", "Stop Walking on Eggshells", and "Children of the Self Absorbed".
You are so blessed to have a husband who will stand up to his mama. Mine didn't, and enabled all kinds of abuse of my mom and me as well as himself.
Fast forward a generation, and my parents have become as personality disordered as my father's parents were. My mom also has sat on my couch whining about how she can't pay her mortgage. I'm older, sadder, and wiser not to take the bait since my parents took my identity when I was a teenager, charged up nearly $100k that took me years to pay off and ruined my credit for seven years. And yet they think I haven't learned and that I'm still here to clean up their messes and pay their bills!
I understand what you mean about parents vs. children forcing decisions. It my my parents' neglect of my 7 mo old son that finally pushed us to go no contact 3 years ago. My parents bought a house five minutes from ours right after we had our first baby, so I understand proximity issues.
I, too, have been threatened with CPS if I don't allow my parents to see my kids. They stalked us at church once, they've harangued us by phone, and they've had three separate counselors call me because they're "very worried about me". They blame my husband for "tearing me away from my family" even though I've been as clear as I can be that this is my own decision, and I began calling them out on their abuse before I ever met my husband.
All this to say, you're not alone. I also struggled for years with "honoring my parents", which wasn't helped by my parents throwing that one in my face whenever I didn't follow orders. My own church has told me very clearly that enabling abuse is not "honoring your parents". We are not expected to tolerate abuse. I also believe it's Biblical that our first priority is to protect our kids. "Boundaries" is a wonderful Christian book that covers this issue well, among others.
I still struggle today, at 40, with trust and insecurity issues as a result of my upbringing. I wish I had been kept from my own looney extended family. I know from experience that protecting my own kids from these influences is the right thing to do. You are doing the right thing. Forget DNA and surround your kids with emotionally healthy Christian adults who will model ethical and respectful behavior to them.
As to the threats and lies about you, you can't control it. My parents have painted me black to anyone who will listen. I had to just turn it over to God. Many years ago I heard a good saying about this one: "You can't stop people from lying about you, but you can live in such a way that the lies would never be believed." Anyone who knows you will know the lies are not true. You can't live in fear of that.
I hope things go well for you. Stay the course, and please seek out those who've been there. I have a wonderful friend who has a personality disordered sister. She understands the difference between "difficult" and "crazy" in a way others sometimes can't. It helps a lot to talk with her.
Kim
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RE: Boundaries of respect and courtesy - 5/1/2008 8:50:54 AM
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Sunnymom
Posts: 1973
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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Great post, Kim, and thanks for the link. I'll check it out.
Something that I have seen in adult child/parent relationships is the feeling that when love and loyalty and commitment are 'transferred' from the parent to the spouse, the parents feel betrayed. This is a very unhealthy attitude, and it is an inaccurate interpretation of the parent/child and spousal relationship. And when you start thinking about the difference in those relationships, including the fact that spouses, uhm, have sex, well... ick  .
It isn't a competition for affection or loyalty. My dh and I are a team. We talk about everything. We make decisions together. He has read and approved of this thread, and enjoyed many of the comments. In our home, he holds the trump card, and his decisions are final. I trust his judgment and enjoy the dynamic of our relationship- after years of abuse and alcoholism, I feel like I am now in marriage Heaven!
Why wouldn't any mother feel happy for her son being an independent adult? That he conquered his substance abuse? That he is now a dedicated husband and father? That he is faithful to and respected at church? That he has a good job and works hard to pay our bills and make up for past mistakes? But sometimes I think they'd rather have the old dh- the one who didn't stand for anything. That partied with his siblings and cousins and didn't make waves. Who borrowed money left and right. And he was cool.
Pardon me while I toss my cookies.
I know that folks who know us don't believe the gossip- that is why I know about what has been said- concerned friends have let me know that my mil has a rep as a malicious gossip. People who listen to her poison and believe it without even attempting to find out what has really happened are usually malicious gossips themselves. And that includes dh's so called 'family' who swallowed the mil KoolAid, even though they themselves have expressed over the years that she isn't always trustworthy, that they don't respect her, they think she is emotionally unstable, and I know of several times that they have lied to her about things that have happened.
If we wanted to, we could wreak havoc. People have confided to us over the years, and we have serious 'dirt' on nearly every member of this family, even about illegal activity. But I have no desire stoop to that level. Even considering it makes me feel ill. They are people who need help, not retribution.
Thankfully, we are getting off this merry-go-round. 
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RE: Boundaries of respect and courtesy - 5/1/2008 4:57:11 PM
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Sadey
Posts: 463
Joined: 7/25/2007
Status: offline
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Wow your husband sounds great and what strength it took to break away from the family craziness. THe greatest thingis that its stopped with your generation. What a hertiage you are leaving your children.
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RE: Boundaries of respect and courtesy - 5/12/2008 6:47:06 PM
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Sunnymom
Posts: 1973
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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Here's an update for anyone who is interested:
Dh's mom called this morning to tell him that she forgives him for being mean and causing so much pain in the family.  He was a bit surprised, since he was at work and he figured she had called about some emergency. Anyway, his response was that he hadn't done anything to be forgiven for, that they had started and escalated the conflict, and that the bottom line was that they didn't respect our beliefs/standards and our wishes with the kids. They have been inconsistent from the getgo, and we have had multiple discussions about this topic- which they now deny we ever had.
She said that the kids had misunderstood the things she had said and done, and that our kids had said 'things' to them about us as well. Funny how she is just bringing this up now. She proceeded to throw around some more insults, that dh doesn't love her,  and telling dh that he was just like his father (who was an abusive drunk, btw). This was meant to be a very low blow, of course, as he isn't any more like his dad than the other siblings. His sister is actually more like her dad, because she is the substance abusing and neglectful parent. He has overcome his past addictions and neglectful behaviors- which they didn't have a problem with, actually. There are two other brothers, one of which is saved and is a nice guy, and the other is not saved. Neither one are supporting or contacting dh at all, which is too bad. I think they just don't want to be bothered.
We don't know if they are going to continue to 'pursue' us. They have proven again and again to be unable to discuss the real issues of boundaries and courtesy. They wanted to use our kids at first for their own ego gratification, and now are trying to use them as weapons, and we won't allow either.
My dh is grieving the loss of this relationship, but he knows we can't allow people into the lives of our kids who are so dishonest and destructive. I am glad that the Lord brought all this out before the kids had really bonded with them. I firmly believe that God's hand has been doing all the orchestrating in revealing their true nature so that our kids would be protected from them.
Amazing that they could be so hateful to their own son who has overcome so much and is such a good husband and father, and a tremendous blessing to his church and co-workers and neighbors. He has gone out of his way for them again and again, and yet they say that because he won't give in to their wishes, that he doesn't love them. They can't see past their own selfish desires and need for control. A couple of people have suggested that they are mentally unstable, and I don't want to go that far, but they sure aren't acting or reacting in a reasonable fashion.
A gf of mine thinks they might actually carry out the sil's threat to call CPS, but they aren't going to get any support from anyone who knows us. They certainly weren't upset with the sil for making the threats, although I think she denied it, and they believe her. What is funny is that the sil is the one who told me she had said that. So... which time was she lying? 
So ya'll pray for us, that this will be OVER soon. I am a bit tired of wondering if the next phone call or knock on the door will be Them.
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RE: Boundaries of respect and courtesy - 5/13/2008 8:19:07 AM
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buckifn
Posts: 1759
Joined: 5/23/2006
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I say your husband needs to step up to the plate and set the boundaries. Let him communicate to his parent's what terms you all have agreed upon for his family to be involved in your life and let it be. It's up to them to accept or reject it.
If it were my parent's and the situation you described here is part of what the arrangement would be.
1. screen all phone calls from family- that means most of the time the answering machine does what it was meant to do and if I think it's important enough I'll return their call.
2. Set dates well ahead of time for when visits will occur... there will be no casual dropping in and if I am not home there will be no visit period until you can treat my wife and all my children with equal respect as me.
3. If, and when we do spend time together in person or on the phone there will be NO discussion that includes gossip about other family members.period.
As for bringing the children gifts I would handle that by saying gifts are only allowed on specific dates, prob bdays and christmas and if they are not given to all they are accepted by none.
Your husband would have to stick to this regardless and they will either get the message and comply or get the message and say no thanks.
He IS the one they need to hear this from.. I pray he will step up on this matter. I had to take a stand early on in our relationship about family matters, and have never regretted it.
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RE: Boundaries of respect and courtesy - 5/13/2008 9:03:57 AM
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Sunnymom
Posts: 1973
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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Here's the thing, buck- my dh has put all those boundaries in place, and they do not respect them. I thought I had made it clear that dh has 'stepped up to the plate' on this. I haven't said a word about anything to anyone- everything they have heard has been from him. For 22 years, their MO has been to target me as the reason for all of dh's behaviors and actions, to to try to separate us on various issues. She will tell me she talked to dh about something, and then tell dh she talked to me about something in order to get her way. It takes her doing this a few times to realize what is happening, because at first you assume that there is just a miscommunication. When you realize how dishonest and manipulative someone is being, especially when it is your MOTHER, it really does take you by surprise. 
I don't have Caller ID so I do let the machine screen my calls, and like I said- dh answered his mobile because he thought maybe there was a family emergency. I did answer the door when she came over- sorry- but I felt stupid to have my mil just stand on the doorstep knowing I was home, and to have the kids look at me and wonder why I wouldn't let GM in. They know what is going on, but I still felt that would be a bad testimony and appear spiteful to them.
You can offer all kinds of reasonable solutions, but when the people you are dealing with are not reasonable, it is hard to know what to say or do, except to cut them off completely. They have turned a small request- respect our rules- into Armageddon. They are accusing my dh of "causing the family so much pain" and "tearing the family apart" and blah blah blah. They say he doesn't love them, and that he is trying to enforce his rules on their home. They can't seem to process the idea that when OUR kids are in their home, OUR RULES do take precedent. We have never told them what to watch on tv, or where to go, or what to wear, but they interpret anything we say about what we believe as some kind of indictment on them. They have brought out every possible inconsistency in our lives as 'proof' that we are hypocrites. So by their standards, unless we achieve sinless perfection, we have no right to attempt to live holy lives honoring God or to ask that our beliefs be respected.
Then she throws out this "Well, I haven't told you what your kids said about YOU"- what is that supposed to mean, and if they said something that was cause for concern, why are we hearing about this now- after 8 months?
Like I said before, if we are in error, it is in being too patient and gracious, and I can live with that. But we have drawn the line, and other than filing a restraining order, I don't know what else we can do, KWIM? The last thing I want to do is escalate things further- they are doing a fine job of that all by themselves.
Quite frankly, because they have felt no compunction in using our kids as weapons and lying to them and about them, I do not want ANY contact from them- I would like to return any cards or gifts unopened. I was frustrated and disappointed before, but now I am MAD.  Don't you dare say that my kids have misunderstood or didn't repeat accurately what was said- especially when their version has never changed, and hers has changed three times. Not to mention the fact they THEY are supposed to be the adults, and understandable communications are their responsibility. If there had only been one or two incidents, then I could accept that there had been a misunderstanding. But when I know certain things for a fact, and there are multiple incidents (10 I can name off the top of my head) that involve arguing with the kids and telling them it was OK to do things that were against our rules and putting the kids in a tough position (like going out with dd buying her something that she would not be allowed to have and bringing it over to ask us if she could have it), then it is time to say "Bon voyage". And don't even get me started on telling my dd that she should keep a secret from mom and dad because we would be mad at her. I still have steam coming out my ears about that one.
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RE: Boundaries of respect and courtesy - 5/13/2008 10:41:33 AM
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buckifn
Posts: 1759
Joined: 5/23/2006
Status: offline
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Considering your last post sunnymom, I would say it leaves no choice but to cut the cord completely then.
It's really sad a parent can't see the damage they are doing to their son or daughter's marriage when they behave in a way you described...but maybe total asbence will cause them to see the damage and want to change it before it is too late?
My feeling is this, if a person can't respect my boundaries in my own house then they are not welcome there. Unfortunately, that sometimes includes family members you expect to behave better, but don't.
Pray for them and move forward.
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RE: Boundaries of respect and courtesy - 5/13/2008 3:17:19 PM
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Ellie-Mae
Posts: 4255
Joined: 4/9/2005
From: The EMPIRE state!
Status: offline
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Sunny, If you were in my kitchen right now, I would offer you something cold to drink to help you calm down. Ooooh, I have ice cream too if you would like. Take some deep breaths. I know this has been hard for you and your family. I have been through similar stuff with family. I have also had to cut ties from toxic people. It has been 6 years since I have spoken more than simple greetings to my SIL and brother. Our home has been so much better for it. I still hope the best for my SIL and her kids, and even my brother, but they will have to do it without me. Coming to that decision was the hardest part for me, holding to it has been much easier especially compared to the grief and stress that they brought when they were in contact with us. Being a blood relative does not mean that you have to be endure maltreatment and abuse from them for the rest of your life.
It is good that your children are getting to know how to set up and enforce appropriate boundaries for themselves through your example... Just don't forget to teach them how to do it in love.
{{{{Sunny}}}}}
_____________________________
Isaiah 40:29
He giveth power to the faint; and to them that have no might he increaseth strength.
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RE: Boundaries of respect and courtesy - 5/13/2008 10:42:15 PM
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clag4christ
Posts: 3046
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: We just moved to the big state of Texas!
Status: offline
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quote:
I could do that if it was just my dh and I, but with kids involved, the whole picture is changed. We can't allow their influence, period.
I really do hope they move- then we can stay in touch with cards and letters, but not have the stress of expectations that come from living so close together.
I'm so very sorry that you're going through this Sunny. My husband and our kids and I have to deal with the same sort of evil manipulation from my mother. She threw a similar fit with us over Santa as well.
Anyway...I hope for your sakes that they choose to move so that you can have some peace.
Even though our girls are only 2.5 and 13 months old we are very open and honest with them when it comes to my mother. We tell them that she needs Jesus and that she's not to be trusted. It also helps that we live 1500 miles away from them.
Have you tried discussing your MIL's favoritism with your daughter? Exaplaining to her how hateful, wicked, and unfair your MIL's being to your sons by not showing them love and giving them gifts as she does to her? That though your inlaws claim to be Christian they are not exhibiting proper fruit and are not healthy in their thoughts and actions? You could tell your sweet children that your MIL is on 'time out' from them because she cannot control herself and hasn't earned the priveledge of their company. 
As far as your MIL trying to 'pull' a trump card on you by using your kids by saying, "I've not told you what they said about you!"...don't take the bait. She's lying and trying to manipulate you and breed distrust within your familial bond. If you cave and ask, "OK, what did they say?" she'll have 'won' and will have all the power.
You already know that she's toxic and unhealthy...I'd encourage you to ask your DH to tell his mother not to come by unannounced anymore. That if she does you'll not be answering the door unless she's called and checked your plans first. Expect this boundary to be tested (many times) before she gets it. But you DO NOT have to let her poison into your home. She's teaching wrong morals and attitudes to your children (your daughter especially) with her favoritism as well as her other manipulative tactics.
Again, I'm so very sorry you're dealing with this type of horrid person too.
Blessings in Christ,
Kim
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Stop vegetable genocide! Have a burger!
<-----Sweet Jael
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RE: Boundaries of respect and courtesy - 5/14/2008 6:38:08 AM
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Sunnymom
Posts: 1973
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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Thanks clag- we haven't asked mil what the kids said- we know the kids are happy, and we have never claimed to be perfect sinless parents. If they had said something to cause them concern, they should have spoken to us about it when it was said, not 8 months later during a conflict, which in itself leads me to believe that she made it up on the spot to be hurtful.
My dd didn't notice the favoritism until I pointed it out, but she does understand that even though she was benefitting, it was wrong, and she felt bad for her brothers.
I think we have developed some immunity towards them now. They are in our prayers, but our lives are much calmer without their involvement.
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This has been a lesson for my kids to learn that people we love and care deeply about can disappoint and even hurt us, but we must be true to Biblical principle, and let God work out the details. He can heal any relationship, but it takes time, and sometimes LOTS of time. Time is a hard concept for kids to grasp, but they seem fine with all of this right now. They trust dh and I to protect them. They know they can ask any questions without fear, and we will take the time to explain things to them until they feel they understand.
