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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/12/2008 11:28:40 PM
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ianz
Posts: 374
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quote:
ORIGINAL: unclemonkey
ORIGINAL:drj11quote:
quote:
At least you admit evolution is dogma. That is a step in the right direction.
No, I have inversely-contrapositively indicated that anti-evolution is not non-dogma.
My bad. I gave you more credit than due. Recognizing evolution for what it is would be a step in the right direction.
Isn't that the truth :-)
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/12/2008 11:35:15 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 6728
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Now you are being duplicitous. You should know better.
We did cover this already.
Which is why I don't understand how you continue to confuse the issue.
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I am defending the ones you refuse to acknowledge: the ones who use eugenic data to save lives.
These tests don't save lives; nothing changes when it is discovered that a baby has Down's.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/12/2008 11:38:17 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 6728
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quote:
I would still say that is selective listening. They are certainly criticized, not only by Christians (Miller, Collins) , but even by agnostics (e.g. Niles Eldredge, Michael Ruse) and even by some atheists for their facile equation of science with atheism.
They seem fairly impervious to the mild rebukes, and their numbers seem to be growing.
quote:
I see the more serious issue being Christians who take their cue from Dawkins, et al. In what other field would Christians give more heed to atheists than to fellow Christians?
In what other field would attacking other Christians be confused with giving them cues?
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/13/2008 1:03:16 AM
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1dblthnk02
Posts: 629
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Which is why I don't understand how you continue to confuse the issue.
We worked this out in the now-closed Darwin, Hitler, and the Culture of Death thread from the Current Events folder. You even agreed that eugenics and scientific racism were "contemporaneous, but not equal," to which I added, "they propped each other up."
Obviously I distinguished between the two just as surely as you saw that they did go together.
quote:
These tests don't save lives; nothing changes when it is discovered that a baby has Down's.
Again, post #19 from the now-closed Darwin, Hitler, and the Culture of Death thread from the Current Events folder: I demonstrated examples of non-Downs cases wherein eugenic testing could potentially save lives. However, you ignored it there, too.
A little intellectual integrity on your part would be refreshing.
< Message edited by 1dblthnk02 -- 5/13/2008 1:21:15 AM >
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/13/2008 7:08:55 AM
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gluadys
Posts: 670
Joined: 4/26/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
I would still say that is selective listening. They are certainly criticized, not only by Christians (Miller, Collins) , but even by agnostics (e.g. Niles Eldredge, Michael Ruse) and even by some atheists for their facile equation of science with atheism.
They seem fairly impervious to the mild rebukes, and their numbers seem to be growing.
So what? The whole ad hominem approach tells us nothing about the validity of the science. And I suggest you resort to it precisely to avoid the science. If their numbers are growing it is because too many Christians are agreeing that one cannot be both Christian and accept the evidence. Most people, including many young people raised in Christian homes and confronting the evidence for the first time, decide in favour of the evidence.
If you would like to see the ranks of atheists decrease, it is important to build theology on fact. That was the lesson of the 16th century, and one we need to take to heart today. If we believe in a creator God, we cannot hold that scripture stands in contradiction to the facts of created nature.
quote:
quote:
I see the more serious issue being Christians who take their cue from Dawkins, et al. In what other field would Christians give more heed to atheists than to fellow Christians?
In what other field would attacking other Christians be confused with giving them cues?
I am not confusing anything. Why do you, for example, as a professing Christian, keep giving Dawkins the limelight? Why are you apparently unfamiliar with the theological work that has been taking place to understand evolution in the light of scripture? Why do other Christians in this forum prop up the principal thesis of the militant atheists by agreeing that belief in the scriptures is antithetical to accepting the theory of evolution? One can hardly fight off one's enemies while conceding the turf to them.
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/13/2008 9:53:38 AM
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PromiseLander
Posts: 271
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If you believe that God is God, then believe His story of creation in Genesis.
If you believe that God is not God, then believe man's story of evolution.
One path leads to heaven, one leads to hell.
The time to choose is now.
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/13/2008 9:56:02 AM
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PromiseLander
Posts: 271
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If a Christian has no problem with the virgin birth, walking on water, feeding the 5,000, talking snakes, talking donkeys, parting seas, THEN WHAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH BELEIVING IN CREATION?
Who gave YOU the right to pick and choose what to believe in Scripture? ARE YOU GOD?
If God is God, then believe His Word - ALL OF IT.
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/13/2008 10:18:47 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 6728
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
We worked this out in the now-closed Darwin, Hitler, and the Culture of Death thread from the Current Events folder. You even agreed that eugenics and scientific racism were "contemporaneous, but not equal," to which I added, "they propped each other up."
Obviously I distinguished between the two just as surely as you saw that they did go together.
I didn’t ‘agree’ that they were “contemporaneous, but not equal”, I stated that to correct your earlier statement. And I didn’t agree they propped each other up. They are separate considerations, which can manifest themselves in a number of ways.
quote:
Again, post #19 from the now-closed Darwin, Hitler, and the Culture of Death thread from the Current Events folder: I demonstrated examples of non-Downs cases wherein eugenic testing could potentially save lives. However, you ignored it there, too.
A little intellectual integrity on your part would be refreshing.
Tests for Down’s aren’t a treatment, they merely identify a condition; and that identification is used to eradicate a human in 90% of the cases. Whatever ‘benefit’ you imagine beyond that is moot, and merely an attempt to distract from the more pertinent issue because you don’t want to justify it. The disingenuousness is wholly yours.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/13/2008 10:20:30 AM
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1dblthnk02
Posts: 629
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PromiseLander,
If someone doesn't believe in God or the bible, is it okay with you if they accept evolution over God and the bible?
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/13/2008 10:26:52 AM
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1dblthnk02
Posts: 629
Joined: 3/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Tests for Down’s aren’t a treatment, they merely identify a condition;
Jhud, look at the the closed thread again: Current Events folder, Darwin, Hitler, and the Culture of Death thread, post #19 about non-Downs examples, if you possess the integrity to have an honest discussion.
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/13/2008 10:29:15 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 6728
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
So what? The whole ad hominem approach tells us nothing about the validity of the science. And I suggest you resort to it precisely to avoid the science. If their numbers are growing it is because too many Christians are agreeing that one cannot be both Christian and accept the evidence. Most people, including many young people raised in Christian homes and confronting the evidence for the first time, decide in favour of the evidence.
Oh, stop blaming Christians for everything. If atheists are growing in numbers, Christians are to blame, not a culture that pushes secular ideas down people’s throats. Atheists confuse science and metaphysics, and you blame Christians for not talking enough about the science. I don’t know where this self-loathing came from, but don’t blame me.
quote:
If you would like to see the ranks of atheists decrease, it is important to build theology on fact. That was the lesson of the 16th century, and one we need to take to heart today. If we believe in a creator God, we cannot hold that scripture stands in contradiction to the facts of created nature.
First off, it’s not my job to convince atheists of anything; they have made their choices, and as has happened repeatedly in the past, those choices will have their own consequences with which they will have to live. There is no reason for a Christian to constrain Scriptural truth to the latest scientific findings so as to make atheists, who could care less, happy.
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I am not confusing anything. Why do you, for example, as a professing Christian, keep giving Dawkins the limelight? Why are you apparently unfamiliar with the theological work that has been taking place to understand evolution in the light of scripture? Why do other Christians in this forum prop up the principal thesis of the militant atheists by agreeing that belief in the scriptures is antithetical to accepting the theory of evolution? One can hardly fight off one's enemies while conceding the turf to them.
First off, Dawkins appears to be among one of the more honest evolutionists; he doesn't try to 'make nice' with some Christians while attacking others.
And you are the one who wants to subject Scripture to the latest scientific findings; don’t blame me for conceding to Dawkins.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/13/2008 10:38:31 AM
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PromiseLander
Posts: 271
Joined: 1/14/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
PromiseLander,
If someone doesn't believe in God or the bible, is it okay with you if they accept evolution over God and the bible?
If someone doesn't believe in God, that doesn't mean that God isn't real. God exists regardless of one's own personal belief system. I can't look at a man who is robbing me and pointing a gun at my head and say "HA! I don't believe in bullets!" As a Christian, it is required of me to evangelize - Jesus did not sugar coat anything, neither will I - if you don't believe in Jesus, then you are going to hell.
Deny yourself, take up your cross daily, and follow Jesus!
See yourself as a wretched, vile, hater of God becuase you sin against Him! Make it a daily practicve to do whatever is necessary to remove the practice of sin in your life, and follow Jesus - desire to be like Him!
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/13/2008 10:50:12 AM
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1dblthnk02
Posts: 629
Joined: 3/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
If someone doesn't believe in God, that doesn't mean that God isn't real. God exists regardless of one's own personal belief system.
That isn't what I asked.
You kept saying "If you believe in God," and "If you believe in scripture" . . .
Well, what if you don't believe? Then is it okay to accept evolution?
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/13/2008 11:09:55 AM
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PromiseLander
Posts: 271
Joined: 1/14/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
If someone doesn't believe in God, that doesn't mean that God isn't real. God exists regardless of one's own personal belief system.
That isn't what I asked.
You kept saying "If you believe in God," and "If you believe in scripture" . . .
Well, what if you don't believe? Then is it okay to accept evolution?
Is it ever OK to believe a lie? No.
Is it OK to believe evolution? It's a lie, so no.
How do I KNOW it's a lie? Because God tells us that He brought things into being by special creation, NOT evolution. Genesis is a historical narrative written by a man who "spoke with God like a man speaks with his friend." In other words - face to face with the bodily form of God, a pre-incarnate Jesus, or Christophany. (spell?) Moses was trained as an egyptian as he grew up with their ideas on how things came to be in the beginning; after he led the Israelites out of their bondage, he received the information about creation from GOD Himself!
Evolution and the like "sciences" tell us that something sprang from nothing and that cows can turn into whales... (a fairy tale for adults) Evolution is not a science by the very definition of science. Then again, neither is Creation - but it never pretends to be science. This whole "intelligent design" **** is so far out of bounds that it borders on blasphemy. It wasn't some "intelligent being" or "force" or "designer" that somehow nudged things in the right direction - it was GOD who SPOKE the very existence from non-existence, end of story. Like Robert Ripley used to say: "Believe it, or not."
Evolution attempt to describe life sans God. ANYTHING that does not agree with Scripture must be scrutinized for accuracy - far too often, people are too sure of their own conclusions to even think that there is even a remote possibility that they could be wrong. WOE to them who think that their knowledge exceeds that of God.
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/13/2008 2:06:18 PM
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gluadys
Posts: 670
Joined: 4/26/2008
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
If you believe that God is God, then believe His story of creation in Genesis.
If you believe that God is not God, then believe man's story of evolution.
One path leads to heaven, one leads to hell.
The time to choose is now.
I have no problem believing God. I mean it sincerely when I profess that Almighty God is the one creator of all things seen and unseen. I have no problem believing scripture.
What I do not believe is YECism.
What I do not believe is that God tells me contradictory stories and that is an essential component of YECism.
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/13/2008 2:27:48 PM
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gluadys
Posts: 670
Joined: 4/26/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Oh, stop blaming Christians for everything. If atheists are growing in numbers, Christians are to blame, not a culture that pushes secular ideas down people’s throats. Atheists confuse science and metaphysics, and you blame Christians for not talking enough about the science. I don’t know where this self-loathing came from, but don’t blame me.
Assumptions, assumptions, assumptions. If Christians claim the science is incorrect, they must do it on scientific terms, not with character assassination. They haven't because they can't. So who is to blame if the culture has become secular? If Christians were followers of Christ, lovers of truth, peace and justice, who would turn away from Christianity? There is a lot more than evolution that turns people away from the church, things a lot more important than the evolution controversy. But I won't go into them on a forum limited to this topic.
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There is no reason for a Christian to constrain Scriptural truth to the latest scientific findings so as to make atheists, who could care less, happy.
More assumptions. I thought you were ID, not YEC. Who says scriptural truth has to be constrained to agree with the truth of creation? That is like saying scriptural truth had to be constrained to agree with Newton's model of the universe. Do you think Newton believed he was constraining the truth of scripture?
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First off, Dawkins appears to be among one of the more honest evolutionists; he doesn't try to 'make nice' with some Christians while attacking others.
The point is why do you focus on Dawkins while never alluding to Ruse, Roughgarden, Zycinski, Van Till or Stephen J. Pope? Why do you assume Dawkins presents the be-all and end-all of philosophical thought about evolution? There are other viewpoints out there. It is not a choice between Dawkins and Ken Hamm as if there were only two mutually exclusive ways to approach scripture and evolution
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/13/2008 2:34:38 PM
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gluadys
Posts: 670
Joined: 4/26/2008
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
Evolution and the like "sciences" tell us that something sprang from nothing
No, it doesn't. You must be getting your information about evolution from unreliable sources.
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and that cows can turn into whales... (a fairy tale for adults)
No, it doesn't. I remember Duane Gish saying that. I have never heard a biologist or paleontologist say that.
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Evolution is not a science by the very definition of science.
Yes, it is, but you wouldn't know that from your unreliable sources of information.
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Evolution attempt to describe life sans God.
No, it doesn't. Evolution does not exclude God. That is why thousands of Christians accept the evidence for evolution.
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far too often, people are too sure of their own conclusions to even think that there is even a remote possibility that they could be wrong.
Very true. Especially when it comes to their interpretation of scripture.
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/13/2008 2:54:30 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 6728
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Assumptions, assumptions, assumptions. If Christians claim the science is incorrect, they must do it on scientific terms, not with character assassination. They haven't because they can't. So who is to blame if the culture has become secular? If Christians were followers of Christ, lovers of truth, peace and justice, who would turn away from Christianity? There is a lot more than evolution that turns people away from the church, things a lot more important than the evolution controversy. But I won't go into them on a forum limited to this topic.
If we assume and teach as a society that science is the primary means by which we ascertain truth, and then we go from there and claim (as many scientists do) that science shows us that atheism is the most reasonable scientific position, then it will follow that atheism will invariably trump any Christian claims of “truth, peace and justice”.
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More assumptions. I thought you were ID, not YEC. Who says scriptural truth has to be constrained to agree with the truth of creation? That is like saying scriptural truth had to be constrained to agree with Newton's model of the universe. Do you think Newton believed he was constraining the truth of scripture?
It’s as if you simply aren’t even reading the actual words.
Science is a way of looking at reality. Presumably, it is a way of accurately looking at the reality of the natural world. If we limit ourselves to that single means of ascertaining reality, as many scientists suggest that we should, then by that very act we subject all other means of ascertaining reality (and ultimately truth) to a very narrow and flawed means of understanding what is real, and true.
Now, understanding that, I say we should never constrain Scripture to the latest scientific findings.
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The point is why do you focus on Dawkins while never alluding to Ruse, Roughgarden, Zycinski, Van Till or Stephen J. Pope? Why do you assume Dawkins presents the be-all and end-all of philosophical thought about evolution? There are other viewpoints out there. It is not a choice between Dawkins and Ken Hamm as if there were only two mutually exclusive ways to approach scripture and evolution
I don’t ‘focus’ on Dawkins’ – he has many cohorts, most of whom agree with him. There are of course exceptions, though very few in the field of evolutionary biology. But that is irrelevant, because my logic, unlike yours, isn’t a logic of the ‘consensus’ – even if every scientist made the same claims of Dawkins, it would still not require us to allow science to trump others means by which reality could be understood, and truth ascertained.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/13/2008 3:12:41 PM
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swan42
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quote:
Evolution and the like "sciences" tell us that something sprang from nothing and that cows can turn into whales... (a fairy tale for adults) Evolution is not a science by the very definition of science.
Scientists beg to differ. Scientists are the arbiters of the definition of science; or they will change the definition to suit their needs and it is not wrong or inconsistent with science to change the definition of science. It happens all the time. (A common ancestor to cows turned into whales: sheesh!!)
By the way, a scientist, by the name of Louis Pasteur, disproved that something comes from nothing. Get with the 21st century.
Science is not a simple process of falsification of hypotheses. The philosophy of science is not just the views of Popper, which have some real problems. Evolution can be falsified in the usual meaning in scientific practice.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolphil/falsify.html
Response: Evolution is observable and testable. The misconception here is that science is limited to controlled experiments that are conducted in laboratories by people in white lab coats. Actually, much of science is accomplished by gathering evidence from the real world and inferring how things work. Astronomers cannot hold stars in their hands and geologists cannot go back in time, but in both cases scientists can learn a great deal by using multiple lines of evidence to make valid and useful inferences about their objects of study. The same is true of the study of the evolutionary history of life on Earth, and as a matter of fact, many mechanisms of evolution are studied through direct experimentation as in more familiar sciences.
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/misconceps/IIFnotscience.shtml
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/13/2008 3:15:55 PM
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swan42
Posts: 283
Joined: 5/3/2008
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quote:
There are other viewpoints out there. It is not a choice between Dawkins and Ken Hamm as if there were only two mutually exclusive ways to approach scripture and evolution
Nice point!.. Both Dawkins and Hamm are complete charactures.
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/13/2008 3:57:03 PM
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gluadys
Posts: 670
Joined: 4/26/2008
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
If we assume and teach as a society that science is the primary means by which we ascertain truth, and then we go from there and claim (as many scientists do) that science shows us that atheism is the most reasonable scientific position, then it will follow that atheism will invariably trump any Christian claims of “truth, peace and justice”.
Especially when Christians accept this reductionist argument as valid and spend time trying to find evidence to back up their belief in a divine designer. Or worse still, evidence for a global deluge within the history of Mesopotamian civilization. Like I said, you can't fend off materialists when you ground your own "faith" in the same principles.
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quote:
More assumptions. I thought you were ID, not YEC. Who says scriptural truth has to be constrained to agree with the truth of creation? That is like saying scriptural truth had to be constrained to agree with Newton's model of the universe. Do you think Newton believed he was constraining the truth of scripture?
It’s as if you simply aren’t even reading the actual words.
Science is a way of looking at reality. Presumably, it is a way of accurately looking at the reality of the natural world. If we limit ourselves to that single means of ascertaining reality, as many scientists suggest that we should, then by that very act we subject all other means of ascertaining reality (and ultimately truth) to a very narrow and flawed means of understanding what is real, and true.
Yes, science is a way of looking at the reality of the natural world. I assume you agree that within the limitations of his time, Newton did that, building on the work of Copernicus, Kepler and Galileo.
Do you think he had to constrain the truth of scripture to accept the new model of the universe? If not, why not?
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quote:
The point is why do you focus on Dawkins while never alluding to Ruse, Roughgarden, Zycinski, Van Till or Stephen J. Pope? Why do you assume Dawkins presents the be-all and end-all of philosophical thought about evolution? There are other viewpoints out there. It is not a choice between Dawkins and Ken Hamm as if there were only two mutually exclusive ways to approach scripture and evolution
I don’t ‘focus’ on Dawkins’ – he has many cohorts, most of whom agree with him.
You scarcely mention anyone else. You know that Kenneth Miller and Joan Roughgarden are both evolutionary biologists too, but you never mention their perspectives. (I know you don't agree with Miller's anti-ID stance, but what about his position on the compatibility of evolution and faith?) Why overlook scientists who are theists, even if they are a minority? Shouldn't you, as a Christian, be trying to amplify their voices so that people do not ignorantly assume Dawkins is the final word. Heck, he doesn't even have the support of most atheists, much less non-atheists.
Or do you really have the same agenda as Dawkins? To drive a wedge between evolution and Christian faith?
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/13/2008 4:32:52 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 6728
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
Especially when Christians accept this reductionist argument as valid and spend time trying to find evidence to back up their belief in a divine designer. Or worse still, evidence for a global deluge within the history of Mesopotamian civilization. Like I said, you can't fend off materialists when you ground your own "faith" in the same principles.
It’s like you are just babbling now. You are the one who constrains your beliefs to the latest notions of science, not me. I don’t have to find God in evolution because I am afraid to question it.
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Yes, science is a way of looking at the reality of the natural world. I assume you agree that within the limitations of his time, Newton did that, building on the work of Copernicus, Kepler and Galileo.
Do you think he had to constrain the truth of scripture to accept the new model of the universe? If not, why not?
It’s like you aren’t even responding to points made anymore; I am arguing that we should never constrain the truth of Scripture to the current model of the universe. Do you agree or not?
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You scarcely mention anyone else. You know that Kenneth Miller and Joan Roughgarden are both evolutionary biologists too, but you never mention their perspectives. (I know you don't agree with Miller's anti-ID stance, but what about his position on the compatibility of evolution and faith?) Why overlook scientists who are theists, even if they are a minority? Shouldn't you, as a Christian, be trying to amplify their voices so that people do not ignorantly assume Dawkins is the final word. Heck, he doesn't even have the support of most atheists, much less non-atheists.
Or do you really have the same agenda as Dawkins? To drive a wedge between evolution and Christian faith?
It is irrelevant how many scientists conflate atheism and science. The point is, we don’t subject revealed Scripture, which is eternally true to ever-changing notions of the universe as indicated by the latest science. The point is that even if no scientists were Christians, or theists, but all were raving atheists like Dawkins, it would not change this because science is a limited means by which to ascertain reality.
Can I be anymore clear?
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/13/2008 4:39:43 PM
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PromiseLander
Posts: 271
Joined: 1/14/2008
Status: offline
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Gluadys:
We've been down this bumpy road before but you haven't yet answered one pivotal question...
As a Christian, I believe that the Bible is God's Holy and infallable Word, if you believe the same, then please list Scriptures that speak of evolution. (Since literally hundreds speak to special creation, as I have listed before)
True, God does use secondary causes in His creation - the tree of life in the Garden of Eden is a good example, and yes, God does create some stuff from stuff that's He's already created, such as man from dirt. BUT, that is still infinately distant from the monkey to man mentality. God tells us that He created everything according to its KIND - leaving no room for a cow to whale change. (so what if science now says that specific transition never happened, it's still a good example of the mentality and way of thinking of the evolutionist)
You mean evolutionary and related science isn't claiming a "big bang" any more? That wheelchair laden dude with glasses still does. Isn't he supposed to be smart? The big bang says (this is remembered from my high school text books circa 1993) that nothing condensed into a tight ball and exploded into everything. (reader's digest version) I suppose you could correct me as to the specifics of what scientists are believing nowadays, but that's what they believed well enough in 1993 to tell us in our science books.
Back to my original question... What God says is truth. What does God say about how everything began? Genesis is a historical narrative, not prose - little more than a casual glance will tell you that - where is evolution if God indeed used that means?
Knowing how God works is not limiting God, it's limiting US.
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/13/2008 4:50:25 PM
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drj11
Posts: 486
Joined: 3/29/2008
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
Gluadys:
We've been down this bumpy road before but you haven't yet answered one pivotal question...
As a Christian, I believe that the Bible is God's Holy and infallable Word, if you believe the same, then please list Scriptures that speak of evolution. (Since literally hundreds speak to special creation, as I have listed before)
True, God does use secondary causes in His creation - the tree of life in the Garden of Eden is a good example, and yes, God does create some stuff from stuff that's He's already created, such as man from dirt. BUT, that is still infinately distant from the monkey to man mentality. God tells us that He created everything according to its KIND - leaving no room for a cow to whale change. (so what if science now says that specific transition never happened, it's still a good example of the mentality and way of thinking of the evolutionist)
You mean evolutionary and related science isn't claiming a "big bang" any more? That wheelchair laden dude with glasses still does. Isn't he supposed to be smart? The big bang says (this is remembered from my high school text books circa 1993) that nothing condensed into a tight ball and exploded into everything. (reader's digest version) I suppose you could correct me as to the specifics of what scientists are believing nowadays, but that's what they believed well enough in 1993 to tell us in our science books.
Back to my original question... What God says is truth. What does God say about how everything began? Genesis is a historical narrative, not prose - little more than a casual glance will tell you that - where is evolution if God indeed used that means?
Knowing how God works is not limiting God, it's limiting US.
Where is God lying then? Is he lying to us in the Bible, or is he lying to us through his creation by giving it the false appearance of age? Your worldview only allows for one of those two answers, but the one thing that will be true with either, is that God is a liar.
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/13/2008 5:00:37 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 6728
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
Where is God lying then? Is he lying to us in the Bible, or is he lying to us through his creation by giving it the false appearance of age? Your worldview only allows for one of those two answers, but the one thing that will be true with eith | | |
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