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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/2/2008 12:56:41 AM
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Jhud
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quote:
I guess they'll have to bring it to the shores of the United States before killing 12 people to get the bad guy will be seen as something to deal with...
John, I don't even think that sentence makes sense.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-200
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/2/2008 1:00:05 AM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TQ_Fan_4_Life
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: TQ_Fan_4_Life
what about all the wars and bloodshed in the Bible? should we forget those parts are in there? try when the People of Egypt were drowned in the Red Sea. how about when the first born of the Egyptians was killed if the sacrafice wasn't made?
What about God sending Pharaoh and his captian into the sea? What about the Passover? What does that have to do with people being killed that didn't do anything wrong to have their life taken? What about Joshua at Jericho putting men, women and children to the sword, or even God flooding the world and only having eight folks on the Ark while the rest of the world drowned...
What does any of that have to do with this subject?
John
because as much as is being quoted of love your neighbor in the Bible, is as much bloodshed and wars in the same book.
and yes I believe in God. I won't call myself a Christian because that's a man made term and my walk with Christ is more personal than that. He is everything to me and more.
but that was to the one who keeps quoted Matthew. war is in same book. lot of bloodshed in the book.
The command to love one's neighbor isn't trumped by wars and God's use of man as His means of delivering His wrath... At the same time there is lawful cause for taking life, but I don't see where even in the justified cause of going after terrorist can one kill those who are not guilty of a crime so to speak. Agents of the state are not given a free ride, Christ said that Pilate sinned while performing his duties; his sin was putting to death someone he knew wasn't guilty of a crime...
John
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/2/2008 1:01:16 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 1843
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
I guess they'll have to bring it to the shores of the United States before killing 12 people to get the bad guy will be seen as something to deal with...
John, I don't even think that sentence makes sense.
When the 12 people are Americans being killed to get to the one bad guy I think people will change their minds about this...
John
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/2/2008 1:04:04 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 6775
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
When the 12 people are Americans being killed to get to the one bad guy I think people will change their minds about this...
I dont know, we had 3000 dead and it appears many would have us do nothing.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-200
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/2/2008 1:20:01 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 1843
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
When the 12 people are Americans being killed to get to the one bad guy I think people will change their minds about this...
I dont know, we had 3000 dead and it appears many would have us do nothing.
How can we say the 3000 killed on 9-11 is a terrible thing if we are killing no less innocent people in the name of justice to avenge them? What authority are we operating that makes that ok?
As well, what is the big deal about the 3000. on 9-11... In about a two days that many unborn are murdered in the United States, yet terrorist are worth killing innocent people over... Just doesn't make sense to me...
John
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/2/2008 1:22:47 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 6775
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
How can we say the 3000 killed on 9-11 is a terrible thing if we are killing no less innocent people in the name of justice to avenge them? What authority are we operating that makes that ok?
As well, what is the big deal about the 3000. on 9-11... In about a two days that many unborn are murdered in the United States, yet terrorist are worth killing innocent people over... Just doesn't make sense to me...
Well, there ya go. Let's pull the troops home.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-200
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/2/2008 1:30:00 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 1843
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
How can we say the 3000 killed on 9-11 is a terrible thing if we are killing no less innocent people in the name of justice to avenge them? What authority are we operating that makes that ok?
As well, what is the big deal about the 3000. on 9-11... In about a two days that many unborn are murdered in the United States, yet terrorist are worth killing innocent people over... Just doesn't make sense to me...
Well, there ya go. Let's pull the troops home.
So unless we can kill innocent people in our quest for terrorist who killed innocent people we have no hope? Maybe we should pull the troops home... Maybe we should consider the beam in our eye as well...
John
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/2/2008 2:04:52 AM
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blessedinnyc
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Well the fact is we don't know anything about them; they could have been hiding the terrorist leader for all we know.
Exactly, we don't know anything about them, yet we drop a bomb on them, too. Those darned six year old kids- hiding terrorist leaders in their play forts!
quote:
Either way, the reality is these guys aren't going to come out with there hands up so we can safely deliver them to rehibilitation, so either we accept that there may be unintentional casualties as we deal with them, or we pack it all up and come home, and hope they are nice to us from now on.
I have no problem with killing them if they don't come out with their hands up.
Their refusal to come out with their hands up, however, does not justify civilian deaths.
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/2/2008 3:15:12 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 6775
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
So unless we can kill innocent people in our quest for terrorist who killed innocent people we have no hope? Maybe we should pull the troops home... Maybe we should consider the beam in our eye as well...
Yeah John if we can't kill innocent people along the way, why send out our soldiers at all? Isn't that what we have them for?
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-200
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/2/2008 3:21:26 AM
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Jhud
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From: Lake Wobegon
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Exactly, we don't know anything about them, yet we drop a bomb on them, too. Those darned six year old kids- hiding terrorist leaders in their play forts!
Like I said, if we can't get the guy to come out with his hands up so we can clearly identify him and make sure no one else gets injured, we should simply avoid going after Al Queda leaders all together.
Of course, if we can get him to do this, why shoot him at all? After all he surrendered. So we can just arrest him, get him a good lawyer, and if he doesn't get off because of a procedural concern we can ship him off to an island where we rehibilitate wayward terrorists by helping them deal with their anger issues.
We call it the Obama plan to fight terror.
quote:
I have no problem with killing them if they don't come out with their hands up.
Their refusal to come out with their hands up, however, does not justify civilian deaths.
Sure it does; if they don't put their hands up, we keep shooting civilians until they feel really bad and comply.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-200
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/2/2008 9:40:57 AM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 10913
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From: Lone Star State
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quote:
I just hope we haven't created more fertile ground for Al Qaeda. Ah yes... If we just leave them alone they will go away.... 
_____________________________
"I think we cannot be blown off course by the fluctuations of the public opinion polls."
Dead Eye Dick Cheney
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/2/2008 9:46:57 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 4614
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
There is never anything sad about a dead Al Queda leader.
What about 12 potentially innocent civilians? Were they sacrificed in the name of democracy?
Well here's your sign; don't hang around with Al Queda terrorist, especially the leaders.
Thanks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/2/2008 9:52:30 AM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 994
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
So unless we can kill innocent people in our quest for terrorist who killed innocent people we have no hope? Maybe we should pull the troops home... Maybe we should consider the beam in our eye as well...
Yeah John if we can't kill innocent people along the way, why send out our soldiers at all? Isn't that what we have them for?
As i mentioned much earlier, this is EXACTLY how terrorist organizations get local "public opinion" tilted to their side.....they "shield" themselves by residing and existing amongst the general population.....then, if ever confronted/attacked, there will most assuredly be "collateral damage"....which, then, the organization uses in it's own PR to denounce the attack, because it killed "innocent people"...no matter how justified it was....(totally ignoring the fact that they kill innocent people as a matter of "normal operating procedure")
no..we are not "at war" with Somalia....but, when Al Quaeda is able to freely "regroup" and set up "camp" there, what should we do? sit on our hands and do nothing (we already tried that a decade or so ago, and know it doesn't work)....
are we supposed to sit and wait around until we have a "clean shot" at someone....causing no other harm to anyone else? If so, we'll be waiting a very, very long time.
In a WAR, innocent people get killed....always....it's a sad fact....but, there's not a good alternative.....
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/2/2008 10:07:23 AM
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mcp
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quote:
So unless we can kill innocent people in our quest for terrorist who killed innocent people we have no hope? Maybe we should pull the troops home... Maybe we should consider the beam in our eye as well...
All wars, this is the case. So, do you speak out on the evil of WW2? People died on both sides from accidents and intentional strikes during the war. Is it OK to bomb Dresden when German children had no way of deciding on their nationalism? After all, they weren't paying taxes and some were forced into Hitler youth programs.
And as to shooting down an airliner with 200 to avoid 3000, where does that fit? Will the news of the gov't shooting down a commercial flight hurt our Nation's cause of protecting our soil or will we give people the benefit of doubt to understand the conundrum the leaders may face? Will you despise your gov't because you had a family member on that plane who unintentionally gave their life to potentially save greater numbers of Americans?
As to who has given the military the "right" to act in such a way, the answer is our gov't, of course. As a Navy man, you could be asked to perform a mission w/o questioning. You could second-guess and refuse with consequences to you (and maybe the bigger picture). If we are attacked on our soil, what difference is that and Somalia asking us to help defend her soil? Even in defending our soil, many innocents could die. But-- If by military rights, you are inferring to God's bestowed rights, well that is a matter for interpretation, isn't it? Our leaders will have to answer on the calculations (or avoidance of such) they make.
Leaders' jobs are to make hard catch22 decisions and usually the same people who deride the lack of high moral ground of America, criticize the gov't when it fails to protect and act on its foreknowledge after a bad event. BTW, we don't know at this time whether the intellegence preceding this Somalian airstrike may have been faulty regarding innocents.
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/2/2008 10:09:38 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 1843
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
So unless we can kill innocent people in our quest for terrorist who killed innocent people we have no hope? Maybe we should pull the troops home... Maybe we should consider the beam in our eye as well...
Yeah John if we can't kill innocent people along the way, why send out our soldiers at all? Isn't that what we have them for?
I guess when the right color of people start being the collateral damage people will take notice..
John
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/2/2008 10:11:44 AM
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kernsfamily
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quote:
Leaders' jobs are to make hard catch22 decisions and usually the same people who deride the lack of high moral ground of America, criticize the gov't when it fails to protect and act on its foreknowledge after a bad event.
OH so very true....especially in these times, politically.....the "danged" if you do, "danged" if you don't, "rule" is very much at play here.....almost daily.
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/2/2008 10:15:29 AM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kernsfamily
As i mentioned much earlier, this is EXACTLY how terrorist organizations get local "public opinion" tilted to their side.....they "shield" themselves by residing and existing amongst the general population.....then, if ever confronted/attacked, there will most assuredly be "collateral damage"....which, then, the organization uses in it's own PR to denounce the attack, because it killed "innocent people"...no matter how justified it was....(totally ignoring the fact that they kill innocent people as a matter of "normal operating procedure")
So the actions of the terrorists justifies our killing of innocent people? Isn't the main issue we have with terrorists jsut that, killing innocent people?
quote:
are we supposed to sit and wait around until we have a "clean shot" at someone....causing no other harm to anyone else? If so, we'll be waiting a very, very long time.
If the cops shot you or someone in your family to kill the guy next door you'd just say, well you have to break a few eggs to make an omelet?
John
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/2/2008 10:25:55 AM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 10913
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quote:
Isn't the main issue we have with terrorists jsut that, killing innocent people? But who is their target?
_____________________________
"I think we cannot be blown off course by the fluctuations of the public opinion polls."
Dead Eye Dick Cheney
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/2/2008 10:26:12 AM
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mapachito13
Posts: 1006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
So unless we can kill innocent people in our quest for terrorist who killed innocent people we have no hope? Maybe we should pull the troops home... Maybe we should consider the beam in our eye as well...
Yeah John if we can't kill innocent people along the way, why send out our soldiers at all? Isn't that what we have them for?
I guess when the right color of people start being the collateral damage people will take notice..
John
John, I am actually in full agreement with your position on this. Innocents should not die in the pursuit of an assasination of a terrorist. We cheapen those innocents lives by using the military term "collateral damage". How impersonal. That "damage" are someone's father, mother or child and not a building.
The ratio of the amount of innocent civilians killed in war as compared to the military personnel is always 10:1. Even in this age of "smart weapons" and "surgical strikes" the ratio, still, is way too high.
But, alas, until Jesus comes again and abolishes war and evil, us small-minded people will resort to violence to "solve" our problems. In this day and age, it creates more problems than it solves.
BTW, the more of these assassinations we perform, especially with innocent civilians killed, the more people will hate the US. I'd hate us too if my sons or wife were killed as "collateral damage".
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Three Nails to protect us!
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/2/2008 10:34:29 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 6775
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quote:
no..we are not "at war" with Somalia....but, when Al Quaeda is able to freely "regroup" and set up "camp" there, what should we do? sit on our hands and do nothing (we already tried that a decade or so ago, and know it doesn't work)....
are we supposed to sit and wait around until we have a "clean shot" at someone....causing no other harm to anyone else? If so, we'll be waiting a very, very long time.
In a WAR, innocent people get killed....always....it's a sad fact....but, there's not a good alternative.....
Excellent, realistic points.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-200
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/2/2008 10:37:36 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 6775
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
I guess when the right color of people start being the collateral damage people will take notice..
Well, like I said, we saw 3000 of our own people die, not as collateral, but as the primary target, and still many would sit back and do nothing. I am fairly certain you could kill dozens of Americans without producing much of a reaction from the populace at large in terms of hunting down the perpetrators; 9/11 wasn't the first attack on Americans.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-200
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/2/2008 10:53:08 AM
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mcp
Posts: 109
Joined: 4/23/2005
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quote:
I guess when the right color of people start being the collateral damage people will take notice..
Those racist Americans ....I think our issue is more of the blindness of nationalism. If we lost Americans in collateral damage, the pain would be greater than collateral Somalis. Sort of like the arguments in this thread of losing family over just unknown people. But we do have some heart for Somalia in our Nation, but we are still gonna weigh our gov't actions against the greater national interests.
< Message edited by mcp -- 5/2/2008 11:02:12 AM >
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/2/2008 10:57:23 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 6775
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Those racist Americans ....I think our issue is more of the blindness of nationalism. If we lost Americans in collateral damage, the pain would be greater than collateral Somalis. Sort of like the arguments in this thread of losing family over just unknown people. But we do have some heart for Somalia in our Nation, but we are still gonna weigh our gov't actions against the greater national interests.
Well sure, though ironically it's increasingly the left that is making that argument.
As concerned as some seem over the people who died along with this terrorist, their seems to be little concern for the thousands who have died in Somalia because such people are in their country wreaking havoc.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-200
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/2/2008 11:07:10 AM
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tracydolls
Posts: 613
Joined: 3/30/2008
From: Mpls, MN
Status: online
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quote:
US Airstrike In Somalia
And the people of Somalia were instantly freed from their yoke of opression! This snake doesn't need a head to do damage. A building falls more easily if you take out its base.
How many more countires can we bomb looking for AL-Qida? Africa has 10 Northern Moslem Countries. We gonna bomb them all? We bombed what to get one man? Why did'nt we help the Sudanese Christians when the Moslems were taking them over? Darfar? that would be a noble cause!!!
But no, instead we chasing smoke and killing innocents. We bombed Somialia already. Clinton did it in the '90's, trying to get Bin Laden. we did'nt care to help them for years, they have had no working gov't since, and when we come back, more bombs! no food, no nothing, bombs.
Pro 24:22 For their calamity shall rise suddenly; and who knoweth the ruin of them both?
We are doing all this killing of innocents , getting blood on our hands , for what? Is it a Holy War?
_____________________________
Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/2/2008 11:15:58 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 6775
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
How many more countires can we bomb looking for AL-Qida? Africa has 10 Northern Moslem Countries. We gonna bomb them all? We bombed what to get one man? Why did'nt we help the Sudanese Christians when the Moslems were taking them over? Darfar? that would be a noble cause!!!
But no, instead we chasing smoke and killing innocents. We bombed Somialia already. Clinton did it in the '90's, trying to get Bin Laden. we did'nt care to help them for years, they have had no working gov't since, and when we come back, more bombs! no food, no nothing, bombs.
Pro 24:22 For their calamity shall rise suddenly; and who knoweth the ruin of them both?
We are doing all this killing of innocents , getting blood on our hands , for what? Is it a Holy War?
Well it seems the modus operandi of Al Queda is to move into war torn country where various factions are vying for power, aid one faction (usually the most fanatical Sunni Muslims), ply them with money and weapons and train them for battle, and then once gaining power they impose the most stringent forms of Sharia law to quell resistance and begin importing fighters for training to send elsewhere.
This isn’t going to happen throughout North Africa because not all countries there are like Somalia is in this respect. We of course need to do two things there; eliminate Al Queda there, and do what we can to provide for a stable government and aid for those who are suffering. The first is unfortunately easier than the last.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-200
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