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RE: Single Issue vs Big Picture Voters - 5/5/2008 8:36:52 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1107
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
You are contradicting yourself here; if murder is the intentional killing of innocent human beings, and it inevitably results in the disruption of society, then how could we excuse this very action in the case of abortion?
We do it, because- as in Roman times with slaves, war prisoners, and Christians, there are certain things that count and certain things that don't count. Thus, society can continue functioning.
At least in this day and age, the injustice isn't quite as blatant. It's not as if we're killing fetuses to some cheering crowd in an ampitheater.
quote:
Romans 13:3 - 13:4
For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority ? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.
Paul here is talking about God's purpose for legitimate governmental authority; obviously, being run by men, governments can do what is evil. Paul, as well of the other apostles, had at times disobeyed direct orders from governing authorities. But that determination is made by weighing one authority (God's) against another (government's) and as Christians we are obligated to obey the latter as long as it doesn't contradict the former.
Exactly. So we should obey the government, even if it's wrong- as long as it doesn't prevent us from worshipping God. In that case, we should act in quiet civil disobedience to do what we need to do to serve God.
Written in the context of 1st century Rome, one would expect Paul to rail against the injustice of crucifying Christians upside down in the Circus Maximus, burning a city to the ground and blaming it on the Christians, or chaining slaves to galleys when they went into battle to make any risk of escape impossible. We don't see him doing that because Christianity is not a political religion.
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RE: Single Issue vs Big Picture Voters - 5/5/2008 9:52:46 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 1846
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
At least in this day and age, the injustice isn't quite as blatant. It's not as if we're killing fetuses to some cheering crowd in an ampitheater.
That certainly makes it better and less a reason for the government to allow it...
quote:
Paul here is talking about God's purpose for legitimate governmental authority; obviously, being run by men, governments can do what is evil. Paul, as well of the other apostles, had at times disobeyed direct orders from governing authorities. But that determination is made by weighing one authority (God's) against another (government's) and as Christians we are obligated to obey the latter as long as it doesn't contradict the former.
Of course... God's law is supreme... Of course that doesn't help your point...
quote:
Exactly. So we should obey the government, even if it's wrong- as long as it doesn't prevent us from worshipping God. In that case, we should act in quiet civil disobedience to do what we need to do to serve God.
No... God's law is supreme... We cannot do wrong because the government says so... That doesn't fly... Peter said to honor men, yet FEAR God...
quote:
Written in the context of 1st century Rome, one would expect Paul to rail against the injustice of crucifying Christians upside down in the Circus Maximus, burning a city to the ground and blaming it on the Christians, or chaining slaves to galleys when they went into battle to make any risk of escape impossible. We don't see him doing that because Christianity is not a political religion.
When Paul was being beat for nothing he invoked the law in regards to him having Roman citizenship...
John
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RE: Single Issue vs Big Picture Voters - 5/5/2008 11:16:03 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 6792
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
We do it, because- as in Roman times with slaves, war prisoners, and Christians, there are certain things that count and certain things that don't count. Thus, society can continue functioning.
At least in this day and age, the injustice isn't quite as blatant. It's not as if we're killing fetuses to some cheering crowd in an ampitheater.
The Romans considered Christians to be enemies of he state; at least they weren’t simply eliminating people or the sake of convenience.
quote:
Exactly. So we should obey the government, even if it's wrong- as long as it doesn't prevent us from worshipping God. In that case, we should act in quiet civil disobedience to do what we need to do to serve God.
No; not if it is contrary to what God explicitly says is wrong. I mean I am not sure what moral precept Christians agree on more than the idea that we shouldn’t intentionally put innocent people to death. Indeed, your presumed notion of opposing wrong would have completely discounted both the abolition movement as well as the civil rights movement. It is totally absurd.
quote:
Written in the context of 1st century Rome, one would expect Paul to rail against the injustice of crucifying Christians upside down in the Circus Maximus, burning a city to the ground and blaming it on the Christians, or chaining slaves to galleys when they went into battle to make any risk of escape impossible. We don't see him doing that because Christianity is not a political religion.
This generally wasn’t happening when Paul was writing; but you seem to completely ignoring the fact that babies aren’t silently going to their deaths because they are compliant with the government, but because they have no voice. If believers aren’t going to say anything, then the slaughter is going to continue.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-200
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RE: Single Issue vs Big Picture Voters - 5/5/2008 11:36:49 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1107
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
The Romans considered Christians to be enemies of he state; at least they weren’t simply eliminating people or the sake of convenience.
Ok, how about war prisoners? Slaves? Anyone who didn't count? There were lots of people who didn't count in Roman society, and this was the government that Paul said was an agent of God.
quote:
No; not if it is contrary to what God explicitly says is wrong. I mean I am not sure what moral precept Christians agree on more than the idea that we shouldn’t intentionally put innocent people to death. Indeed, your presumed notion of opposing wrong would have completely discounted both the abolition movement as well as the civil rights movement. It is totally absurd.
Exactly; that's why we should stay away from the ampitheater and not feed our slaves to lions. (And not engage in abortions ourselves.)
quote:
This generally wasn’t happening when Paul was writing; but you seem to completely ignoring the fact that babies aren’t silently going to their deaths because they are compliant with the government, but because they have no voice. If believers aren’t going to say anything, then the slaughter is going to continue.
Actually, it was. Nero burnt Rome to the ground and blamed it on the Christians at around the same time it was generally accepted that Paul wrote some of his books. Ironically, Paul likely died in Rome during the time of Nero's worst persecution. Of course, Claudius, Nero's predecessor, wasn't exactly nice to Christians, either.
The fact is that Christianity is a largely non-political religion. It does not provide a political response to atrocities; it provides a human one. When we get too involved in politics, pregnant women start to see adoption centers as cheap tricks from the right, and see the wasteland of limbs and punctured skulls in the rhetoric of certain folks as just more campaign speak in an election year.
< Message edited by blessedinnyc -- 5/5/2008 11:50:26 PM >
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RE: Single Issue vs Big Picture Voters - 5/6/2008 11:11:14 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 6792
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Ok, how about war prisoners? Slaves? Anyone who didn't count? There were lots of people who didn't count in Roman society, and this was the government that Paul said was an agent of God.
Well, Paul wasn't mounting a defense of Roman government, he was mounting a defense for the legitimacy of governmental authority as oppose to Christians simply not doing things the government required, like paying taxes. So in short, the government has authority to which we must submit as long as that authority wasn't contradictory to a higher authority, namely God's.
quote:
Exactly; that's why we should stay away from the ampitheater and not feed our slaves to lions. (And not engage in abortions ourselves.)
You are confusing Christian submission to government with the fact that Christians didn't have any power in Roman times to stop their pagan practices. Christians didn't condone the maltreatment of slaves, or war prisoners, or the Roman practice of discarding unwanted babies; and as much as they did have such power, they cared for those that 'didn't count', including the babies that were discarded.
However we live in a very rare time where our opinions can have some effect, and those who fail to speak for those who 'don't count' in our society, or act on their behalf, are essentially no different the Romans pagans you now condemn.
quote:
Actually, it was. Nero burnt Rome to the ground and blamed it on the Christians at around the same time it was generally accepted that Paul wrote some of his books. Ironically, Paul likely died in Rome during the time of Nero's worst persecution. Of course, Claudius, Nero's predecessor, wasn't exactly nice to Christians, either.
Actually, Nero didn't become Emperor until 54, and most of Paul's writing were in the early and mid 50's; indeed, Paul didn't even go to Rome until later in his life, and Romans is considered to be one of his later epistles. The great fire didn't happen until 64, probably the same year as Paul's death.
quote:
The fact is that Christianity is a largely non-political religion. It does not provide a political response to atrocities; it provides a human one. When we get too involved in politics, pregnant women start to see adoption centers as cheap tricks from the right, and see the wasteland of limbs and punctured skulls in the rhetoric of certain folks as just more campaign speak in an election year.
Christianity has from its very inception challenged the ruling authorities and was challenged by the same, from the persecution of the Sanhedrin, to the persecution of the city leaders in Ephesus, to the tortures of Rome incited by Roman authorities. I don't know what you think 'political' means, but there is absolutely no denying that Christianity has always challenged the way societies were run, from the highest authority down to the workings of everyday life.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-200
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RE: Single Issue vs Big Picture Voters - 5/6/2008 12:55:35 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1107
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
Well, Paul wasn't mounting a defense of Roman government, he was mounting a defense for the legitimacy of governmental authority as oppose to Christians simply not doing things the government required, like paying taxes. So in short, the government has authority to which we must submit as long as that authority wasn't contradictory to a higher authority, namely God's.
Or maybe Paul was recognizing that government is ultimately controlled by another power besides God, as Hal Lindsey and plenty of other folks claim. We aren't responsible for the evils of government- our job is to work around them while respecting the law.
quote:
You are confusing Christian submission to government with the fact that Christians didn't have any power in Roman times to stop their pagan practices. Christians didn't condone the maltreatment of slaves, or war prisoners, or the Roman practice of discarding unwanted babies; and as much as they did have such power, they cared for those that 'didn't count', including the babies that were discarded.
They had plenty of power. While they were in front of the Sanhedrin or various forums, they could have condemned slavery, brutal killings, or anything else, and asked that they be stopped.
quote:
Actually, Nero didn't become Emperor until 54, and most of Paul's writing were in the early and mid 50's; indeed, Paul didn't even go to Rome until later in his life, and Romans is considered to be one of his later epistles. The great fire didn't happen until 64, probably the same year as Paul's death.
Well, Romans was written three or four years after Nero came to power (54 AD; Romans was written around 57-58 AD), and don't forget about Uncle Claudius, who blamed much of the actions of the Zealots on Christians and persecuted them, too.
quote:
Christianity has from its very inception challenged the ruling authorities and was challenged by the same, from the persecution of the Sanhedrin, to the persecution of the city leaders in Ephesus, to the tortures of Rome incited by Roman authorities.
Notice how in all of these cases, the Christians were merely defending their right to practice their religion. They were not going up to the city council of Ephesus and telling them that slavery should be banned or that the local Coliseum should get rid of gladiator fights.
quote:
I don't know what you think 'political' means, but there is absolutely no denying that Christianity has always challenged the way societies were run, from the highest authority down to the workings of everyday life.
Of course Christianity challenges the way society is run, but there is a difference between trying to gain power over others and enforcing morality and actually doing it by fulfilling the great commission. The past 35 years have shown that trying to control the political systems and forcing people to act morally doesn't work very well. If following Christ's instructions in Matt 28:19 at least has a chance of fixing things (I believe it will), and using the political process conflicts with this approach (as it clearly does), then we should follow Christ's instructions and not follow the "gain power over people and make them behave morally" approach.
< Message edited by blessedinnyc -- 5/6/2008 1:05:37 PM >
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RE: Single Issue vs Big Picture Voters - 5/6/2008 1:07:34 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 6792
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Well, Romans was written three or four years after Nero came to power (54 AD; Romans was written around 57-58 AD), and don't forget about Uncle Claudius, who blamed much of the actions of the Zealots on Christians and persecuted them, too.
I think you have lost track of what your point is here.
quote:
Notice how in all of these cases, the Christians were merely defending their right to practice their religion. They were not going up to the city council of Ephesus and telling them that slavery should be banned or that the local Coliseum should get rid of gladiator fights.
That is because they had no opportunity to do so, and within the system they found themselves, they did what they could. For example, it would make little sense for a missionary to a foreign country to begin to regale against the local governments for practices they found abhorrent, but to do what they could to help those who were the victims of such practices (much like mother Theresa’s work with Indian ‘untouchables’)
However, when we have a vote and a voice on such issues, it is imperative that we use such power for good. I mean, if Paul had the ability to vote for a Roman leader who didn’t do the horrendous things you have listed, how do you think he would have instructed followers of Christ to vote?
quote:
Of course Christianity challenges the way society is run, but there is a difference between trying to gain power over others and enforcing morality and actually doing it by fulfilling the great commission. The past 35 years have shown that trying to control the political systems and forcing people to act morally doesn't work very well. If following Christ's instructions in Matt 28:19 at least has a chance of fixing things (I believe it will), and using the political process conflicts with this approach (as it clearly does), then we should follow Christ's instructions and not follow the "gain power over people and make them behave morally" approach.
These two aren’t mutually exclusive; we must both continue to stand for what is right (protecting the innocent, protecting the sanctity of marriage, etc) and sharing the message of hope that is the gospel. Indeed, Christ warned of what would become of believers who abandoned the moral preservation of a society; they would be like salt that had lost it’s saltiness, light that had been obscured - that is, ineffective and useless in all respects.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-200
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RE: Single Issue vs Big Picture Voters - 5/6/2008 7:28:24 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 1846
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
Or maybe Paul was recognizing that government is ultimately controlled by another power besides God, as Hal Lindsey and plenty of other folks claim. We aren't responsible for the evils of government- our job is to work around them while respecting the law.
What can control what God ordained??? Oh my... Hal Lindsey...
John
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RE: Single Issue vs Big Picture Voters - 5/12/2008 8:55:43 AM
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P31W
Posts: 1814
Joined: 6/13/2005
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quote:
However we live in a very rare time where our opinions can have some effect, and those who fail to speak for those who 'don't count' in our society, or act on their behalf, are essentially no different the Romans pagans you now condemn.
BINGO JACK BINGO.
We live under a form of government that gives us a voice or some authority/power to challenge/change/make the laws.
"We the people"......
God said "to whom much is given is much expected"
Here is God's instructions to people who have power or a voice in the government.
Prov 31:8-9
""Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute. Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy."
< Message edited by P31W -- 5/12/2008 9:02:09 AM >
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RE: Single Issue vs Big Picture Voters - 5/12/2008 9:07:59 AM
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P31W
Posts: 1814
Joined: 6/13/2005
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quote:
This is not a judgment thread, but just a question for believers who I have heard the economy is more important than abortion, gay marriage issues. I am trying to see both points of view, in fairness. So no one take offense, just a question I need to find out. Thank you for your kind replies.
Light,
Think about gay marriage and how that is going to effect our public systems. Our daycares, libraries, school plays, textbooks and the like.
Most of us christians will have to make a choice. Money over morality.....or Morality over money.
Do we put 5 yrs. old John in kindergarden where the teacher a "openly gay man" has our son play the husband of Daniel for grandparents day?
Do we have them read books and write reports on how homosexuality is a choice that is both good and normal.
Do we have them subject to teachers and peers who tell them they unloving because they don't believe homosexuality is "good"?
________
I began to save money for my "grandchildren's" private school education the minute our son graduated from HS. None of us in our family intend to have our family members educated in this type of immoral junk. We estimate that it's going to cost us probably close to a hundred thousand dollars "if" my son has only one or two children.
(my son does not yet have children - we simply believe that in the future there will be no option for us other than to give our grandchildren private school educations because of the decay that is currently occuring in our public schools and will only get worse as people chose "money over morality".)
< Message edited by P31W -- 5/12/2008 9:15:17 AM >
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RE: Single Issue vs Big Picture Voters - 5/12/2008 12:07:37 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3316
Joined: 4/11/2005
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This thread is to do with trusting God with food, drink, clothes, and worrying about these things is like being an unbeliever. The word tells us Christians to put Gods Kingdom and his righteouness, ( His ways) and( ALL,) these things will be added to you.
In truth some of us have in the past, been poor, and there are poor people now, as I am writing this. The truth be known, in the United States have never suffered as people in third world countries. Our oppression is driving an 1999 automobile, or worse public transportation, or walking. Paul said to be content with food and shealter, and I bet we all have atleast that. There are homeless, and we as a church should do more, and many do. Soup Kitchens in third world countries, really do not happen, no a bed in a homeless shealter. My friend who will not work, has food stamps, and housing assistance, paying twenty dollars a month, her son gets social security, and child support, food stamps.
Is it ok to have a new car?,Yes I am buying one now, but have been content with older ones, until it is costing much money to fix them, and not reliable to leave town in. It is not keeping up with the Jonses. You should see the cars of local Highschool students, 40,000 to 50,000 dollar cars. I want a 13,000 PT Crusier. Could I afford more? Yes I could, but it is my Dream Car, and modest, and cool at the same time.
My point is this, before I vote for a person who votes for abortion, Gay marriage, I will eat beans everyday keep my junker automobiles. I believe if our nation does not exalt what is right, then we will suffer famine, and poverty anyway. That is just my opinion, but, it does tell us in the word a Nation is exalted by its Righteouness. He destroyed the Hebrew children more than once sending them into captivity more than once for acting like pagans. Do you think he will do any less to us?
It is true the Bible does not say vote this way, or that, but gives guidelines to do the right thing, and it tells us about seeking Gods Kingdom first, and all these things will be added to us.
People say we as Christians should not be in the goverment. Do you vote? Then you are involved in Goverment. Christianity is not a religon, for true believers it is everything we are. What we have now, is laziness in our country, because things have been so easy, young people have no work ethic for the most part. Maybe a little hardtime, will improve character of the United States. PW31, I agree with you 100%. Ans since I am on a roll, the economy is not current Administrations fault, America greed, Credit Cards, new homes and cars people cannot afford. It is so much easier to point the finger at others, instead of back at oneself.
< Message edited by lightshineon -- 5/12/2008 12:14:23 PM >
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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