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RE: Be Holy? - 5/11/2008 11:00:08 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Since the day you accepted Christ as your savior and were born again, have you committed even a single sinful act, even if it was in thought? Don't justify it or stipulate it; just answer. This is not Christian perfection as understood in the Weslyan/Holiness tradition, McFatty. I agree with Brother James that I know of no orthodox Christian denomination that teaches the inability to sin as a feature of salvation or sanctification.
As a sanctified Believer of nearly 30 years, I have committed willful sin during this time. God has graciously forgiven me and restored my fellowship with Him, when I did my part to confess, repent and reconsecrate. I do not sin continually,daily, habitually, regularly, or persistently by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit!
quote:
What we are saying is that you do not confess and repent in order to get forgiven or to stay in fellowship with God. Thats all. And what you're saying is wrong, URF. That's all.
< Message edited by drmark -- 5/11/2008 11:12:20 PM >
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/11/2008 11:06:10 PM
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gmc4Jesus
Posts: 101
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Torrance, California
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If I sin all of the time, then what does repentance mean?
If I am not becoming more aware of temptations around me and learning to resist them, then I must not be growing as a Christian. Part of the Christian walk is to understand that I am free from sin's power and temptation. I can say no to sin and live a more victorious life.
I may be a long time becoming "perfect", but I certainly sin less than I did before Jesus became my Lord and Savior.
_____________________________
Let's talk about Jesus, His life and teachings at the www.gettingtoknowjesus.org Gospel Study Forum.
Home of "Getting To Know Jesus", a complete Bible study on the life and teachings of Jesus.
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/12/2008 8:44:40 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 373
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gmc4Jesus
If I sin all of the time, then what does repentance mean?
If I am not becoming more aware of temptations around me and learning to resist them, then I must not be growing as a Christian. Part of the Christian walk is to understand that I am free from sin's power and temptation. I can say no to sin and live a more victorious life.
I may be a long time becoming "perfect", but I certainly sin less than I did before Jesus became my Lord and Savior.
If you are referring to my comment, 'all of the time' is, of course, hyperbole. We do not sin literally all the time, but we sin much more often than we generally admit to ourselves. Sin is anything that does not originate from God. How's that for a definition that buries you?
True repentance is turning from independence and self-sufficiency, and turning to dependence upon Christ and His sufficiency.
You are only free from sins power and temptation to the degree to which you are dependent upon Jesus Christ. In and of yourself you are powerless against sin. Christ is our power. Christian growth is learning to turn over more and more of ourselves to God.
Yes, as we grow there will be less sin on our lives. Our ever increasing dependency upon the Holy Spirit, leads of us into ever deeper understanding of truth. This is part of the process that conforms us into the image of Christ.
Peace
_____________________________
The sin of the world is unbelief.
"I am a Believer, it is impossible for me to be an unbeliever."
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/12/2008 9:13:47 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Sin is anything that does not originate from God. How's that for a definition that buries you? Everything except evil has, is, and will originate from God, URF! Thus, everyone who lives completely in, through, and with the Love of Christ is not sinful nor sinning. How's that for burying the idea that "we sin much more often than we generally admit to ourselves"?
quote:
Christian growth is learning to turn over more and more of ourselves to God. Nope, Christian growth is learning to lead a victorious life daily while we have turned all of ourselves over to God!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/12/2008 9:16:11 AM
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URForgiven
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Sin is anything that does not originate from God. How's that for a definition that buries you? Everything except evil has, is, and will originate from God, URF! Thus, everyone who lives completely in, through, and with the Love of Christ is not sinful nor sinning. How's that for burying the idea that "we sin much more often than we generally admit to ourselves"?
quote:
Christian growth is learning to turn over more and more of ourselves to God. Nope, Christian growth is learning to lead a victorious life daily while we have turned all of ourselves over to God!
Why did I know you were going to say this? LOL
_____________________________
The sin of the world is unbelief.
"I am a Believer, it is impossible for me to be an unbeliever."
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/12/2008 9:30:12 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
This is why you see folks redefining sin out of existence! They have to minimize sin in order to 'feel' sin free. When you see what sin is from Gods point of view, it makes it much harder to pretend you do not sin. Willful or otherwise.
Sin is not something to take lightly nor is it something to pretend doesn't exist. It is a fact of this life. And a constant reminder of why we need Jesus Christ.
But are not you "Redefining" sin, by claiming that one committs sin constantly, but that thier no reprocussions for that sin; that one doens not even have to repent and confess to be right standing with God.
Your approach is just a cleaverly disquised liscnese to sin as in "I sin all the time, and cannot help it so sin some more since God doesn't care about our sins".
Thsnks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/12/2008 9:37:47 AM
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URForgiven
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
This is why you see folks redefining sin out of existence! They have to minimize sin in order to 'feel' sin free. When you see what sin is from Gods point of view, it makes it much harder to pretend you do not sin. Willful or otherwise.
Sin is not something to take lightly nor is it something to pretend doesn't exist. It is a fact of this life. And a constant reminder of why we need Jesus Christ.
But are not you "Redefining" sin, by claiming that one committs sin constantly, but that thier no reprocussions for that sin; that one doens not even have to repent and confess to be right standing with God.
Your approach is just a cleaverly disquised liscnese to sin as in "I sin all the time, and cannot help it so sin some more since God doesn't care about our sins".
Thsnks
RC
RC, you continually sin right here on these forums. We all can see it clearly. Twisting peoples words to make them appear to mean what you know they do not...is sin. And you have been pretty darn constant in that sin.
If you believe that Grace is a license to sin, that is your right. I believe what God says, and what God says is that it is Grace that makes it possible for us to NOT sin.
Peace
_____________________________
The sin of the world is unbelief.
"I am a Believer, it is impossible for me to be an unbeliever."
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/12/2008 11:43:28 AM
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drmark
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quote:
But are not you "Redefining" sin, by claiming that one committs sin constantly, but that thier no reprocussions for that sin; that one doens not even have to repent and confess to be right standing with God. This really is the central issue, Brother James, between the two sides/understanding of holiness. You and I believe that Jesus came to change the nature of sinful man so that we do not have to sin any more. The other (sinning religion) crowd believes that Jesus came to change the nature of sin so that God could no longer see it as sinful because of some automatic, unconditional "right standing". The Bible says there is no change in standing without a corresponding change in state!
quote:
RC, you continually sin right here on these forums. quote:
Peace Does anyone else see the hypocrisy of such divergent attitudes?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/12/2008 11:53:06 AM
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McFatty
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
You and I believe that Jesus came to change the nature of sinful man so that we do not have to sin any more. The other (sinning religion) crowd believes that Jesus came to change the nature of sin so that God could no longer see it as sinful because of some automatic, unconditional "right standing". The Bible says there is no change in standing without a corresponding change in state!
It seems that there is a gray area, because I don't fall into either of those categories, though when you describe the other viewpoint, you do so in a biased way, I fear. I believe, as well, that Jesus came, in part, to change the nature of the sinful man. However, I believe that even with one's nature changed, he will not be completely without sin, just as the sinful man is not completely without good deeds. I understand what you're saying, but it seems foolish to believe that once you're a saved man you will never slip up for the rest of your life, which is honestly what it sounds like your side of the argument is claiming.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/12/2008 12:26:27 PM
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drmark
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quote:
when you describe the other viewpoint, you do so in a biased way, I fear. Please point out my biases, if you wish. Everything I've posted has support in Scripture - that is my only bias!
quote:
However, I believe that even with one's nature changed, he will not be completely without sin, So how do you interpret the word "all" in 1 John 1:7 and 9?
quote:
it seems foolish to believe that once you're a saved man you will never slip up for the rest of your life, which is honestly what it sounds like your side of the argument is claiming. It seems foolish to think this is what "our side of the argument is claiming" when we've never once stated that!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/12/2008 1:15:34 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
But are not you "Redefining" sin, by claiming that one committs sin constantly, but that thier no reprocussions for that sin; that one doens not even have to repent and confess to be right standing with God. This really is the central issue, Brother James, between the two sides/understanding of holiness. You and I believe that Jesus came to change the nature of sinful man so that we do not have to sin any more. The other (sinning religion) crowd believes that Jesus came to change the nature of sin so that God could no longer see it as sinful because of some automatic, unconditional "right standing". The Bible says there is no change in standing without a corresponding change in state!
Very perceptive post drmark.
I do read the Scripture to say that God's Grace forgives all past sin before salvation and gives Christians the choice of sinning or not sinning (1 Cor. 10:13), and if on occasion Christians do stumble then Grace gives us the opportunity to restore a torn relationship through confession and repentance.
It does seem that others read the Scripture to say God's Grace is a green light to sin and serve the flesh without constraints; because God does not consider their sin to be sin.
I really think anyone with the Spirit of God and a brain can see the folly of the latter.
I would urge those of the latter persuasion to read the Epistles of the Apostle John, and would suggest a close reading of the 6yh chaper of Romans.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/12/2008 1:29:45 PM
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gmc4Jesus
Posts: 101
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Torrance, California
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We can discuss forever whether we sin always or not. We can belabor each other's definition of sin and grace. We can, for the most part, support our particular views with some Scripture, whether totally in context or not.
While I am learning from this discussion, I still want to focus on being more holy. I want to live a life that is reflective of a saint, one who is sanctified and set apart. I love Jesus so much that I am trying to make myself more aware of every temptation so I can say no and not sin.
Oh that we would focus on refraining from sin and making our love for Jesus such a powerful part of our lives that the world would look at us and see Jesus.
Oh that, instead of arguing over sin, we might focus on how to be more like Jesus through Bible study, prayer, seeking to know Him better so we can emulate His example in our lives.
_____________________________
Let's talk about Jesus, His life and teachings at the www.gettingtoknowjesus.org Gospel Study Forum.
Home of "Getting To Know Jesus", a complete Bible study on the life and teachings of Jesus.
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/12/2008 1:30:35 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 725
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From: Augusta, GA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
when you describe the other viewpoint, you do so in a biased way, I fear. Please point out my biases, if you wish. Everything I've posted has support in Scripture - that is my only bias!
quote:
However, I believe that even with one's nature changed, he will not be completely without sin, So how do you interpret the word "all" in 1 John 1:7 and 9?
quote:
it seems foolish to believe that once you're a saved man you will never slip up for the rest of your life, which is honestly what it sounds like your side of the argument is claiming. It seems foolish to think this is what "our side of the argument is claiming" when we've never once stated that!
I'll go from the end to the beginning, I guess.
To your final point, remember I said "it sounds like". I know it wasn't stated. I am just saying what it sounds like. What is it you believe then? You're saying a man's nature is changes so he will be completely without sin yet at the same time he will slip up? How is that? Keep in mind I'm trying to understand what you're saying, rather than anything else. I find no need for ill wills.
To your middle point, in 1 John 1:7 and 1:9, John is telling us that the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. This means that everything we have done is forgiven us. Again, the way you give your argument, it seems like (SEEMS like) you're saying that if anyone slips up after this, his cleansing was not true. There is none who is righteous, not even one.
To your first point, I'm sure we all get our biases from scripture, no matter what we believe. This doesn't mean we have to make fun of an argument which opposes our own or speak of it in a condescending way. That doesn't seem the best way to treat the person to whom that argument belongs: our brother/sister.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/12/2008 1:46:25 PM
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deliveredarling
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I used a term on the unity thread called Convenient Christianity. We are not powerless over sin. We have choices. CC says that we don't have choices and there is no such thing as free will. It says we don't have to repent because He already paid for that sin. This line of thinking is easy, it is convenient because there would be no effort on our part. This is not true. If Jesus did as you say, then why don't we all have strings hanging on to us like puppets for Him to move us? Why is there free will? Why would He have died a gruesome death just so we could life this life? Wouldn't that make us all the same? Wouldn't election be pointless? And finally, why would He warn us the the gate is narrow, if effort on our part is not required?
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/12/2008 2:01:46 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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I am also trying to figure all this out, as many of you know, so I wonder about the following, while I know that what I write will not fit everyone. I am just wondering if it fits most here. Are the following statements true for you, within the category which is most like your belief?
In order for us all to understand, please declare which category is most like your beliefs (A or B) by cutting and pasting it, then please cut and paste the numbered parts you understand to be true about your belief.
A. Those who understand that they do sin while being believers yet continue toward sanctification (toward being set apart, toward complete holiness):
B. Those who understand that they do not sin while being believers and they are sanctified (are set apart, and are holy):
SIN IS:
1. Obviously, not honoring G-d, having false gods, taking the L-rd G-d's Name in vain, (I am obviously skipping the fourth for those whose main worship day is Sunday), dishonoring my parents, being a false witness, theft, murder, adultery, lust, and/or coveting are sins.
2. Some other sins are gluttony, other sexual sins, being involved in occult practices, blasphemy, animal abuse, and/or any other understood willful sin
3. Purposely not fulfilling a vow or promise when I could have fulfilled, pride, gossip, and/or doing any other unrighteousness.
4. Knowing to do good but not doing it.
5. Still being angry at sunset, refusing to acknowledge a personal sin that has been truthfully pointed out to me by any source, anything that is not of faith, and/or all lying.
6. Unknowingly hurting another, unknowingly not following a clearly written law of G-d, and/or doing anything I did not know was wrong.
7. Accidentally telling something that was not true when I thought it was true.
8. Saying I am presently without sin.
9. Saying that I have not sinned at all since I was most recently saved.
10. I believe that sin is willfully doing something wrong -- that and nothing more.
< Message edited by Covaan_Meshuga -- 5/12/2008 2:57:16 PM >
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
Looking,waddling, and quacking are not the essence of duckness.
G-d has only one natural-born Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/12/2008 2:03:24 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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I will do my own:
A. Those who understand that they do sin while being believers yet continue toward sanctification (toward being set apart, toward complete holiness):
SIN IS:
1. Obviously, not honoring G-d, having false gods, taking the L-rd G-d's Name in vain, (I am obviously skipping the fourth for those whose main worship day is Sunday), dishonoring my parents, being a false witness, theft, murder, adultery, lust, and/or coveting are sins.
2. Some other sins are gluttony, other sexual sins, being involved in occult practices, blasphemy, animal abuse, and/or any other understood willful sin
3. Purposely not fulfilling a vow or promise when I could have fulfilled, pride, gossip, and/or doing any other unrighteousness.
4. Knowing to do good but not doing it.
5. Still being angry at sunset, refusing to acknowledge a personal sin that has been truthfully pointed out to me by any source, anything that is not of faith, and/or all lying.
6. Unknowingly hurting another, unknowingly not following a clearly written law of G-d, and/or doing anything I did not know was wrong.
7. Accidentally telling something that was not true when I thought it was true.
8. Saying I am presently without sin.
< Message edited by Covaan_Meshuga -- 5/12/2008 2:58:16 PM >
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
Looking,waddling, and quacking are not the essence of duckness.
G-d has only one natural-born Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/12/2008 2:07:24 PM
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rileykins
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Let me ask you guys something?
How do you preach a life changing gospel and not expect to see lives changed?
Here's another: You say the most important question people can ask is if you know Jesus, right? Isn't it more important to as, If He knows you?
Who says we don't expect to see lives changed? None of us have ever said we don't expect to see lives change, where did that come from? In Christ we become new creations. Where we were once dead in our sins and trespasses we are now made alive to God in Christ Jesus. We become dead to sin through the body of Christ and put that truth to work in our lives as we reckon ourselves to have been crucified, buried and raised with Him. Romans 6.
When we are saved who and what we were in old Adam is to no longer dominate us because we have become new creations in Christ Jesus. As we continue to grow in God's grace and continually renew our minds in the knowledge of who God has made us in His Son and letting those things become our reality, that old sin nature and what all we were in Adam will gradually lose it's power over us. And as we grow in grace and have our minds renewed in God's word to us as members of the body of Christ, the inner man, that new man that we are in Christ Jesus will be strengthened daily. This is how real change takes place in the life of a beliver.
And I'm not talking about sinless perfection either, so don't say that I am.
rileykins
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/12/2008 2:21:51 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3108
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quote:
Very perceptive post drmark. Thank you for your compliment, Brother James, but I need to give credit where credit is due. In his book, A Right Conception of Sin, Richard Taylor discusses the basic fallacy of imputed righteousness alone in Chapter 3. Perhaps you will find it useful in your preaching and teaching.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/12/2008 2:48:47 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 613
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I don't understand what it is you are asking. A would fit my beliefs. The numbered items, some I am guilty of, some I am not. I don't understand how those fit into A or B though.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/12/2008 2:51:44 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
I don't understand what it is you are asking. A would fit my beliefs. The numbered items, some I am guilty of, some I am not. I don't understand how those fit into A or B though. Which ones do you consider to be sin?
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
Looking,waddling, and quacking are not the essence of duckness.
G-d has only one natural-born Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/12/2008 2:57:38 PM
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drmark
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quote:
What is it you believe then? You're saying a man's nature is changes so he will be completely without sin yet at the same time he will slip up? How is that? Define "slip up". I have not used that term.
A Believer who is wholly sanctified, cleansed of original sin and the carnal nature, and loving God and others with all their being DOES NOT willfully, deliberately, intentionally disobey the known Will of God. That person is sinless AND holy at any given moment. That person also has the free will to choose continued sinless and holy living or deliberately disobey God. ALL of this occurs ONLY by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit!
quote:
There is none who is righteous, not even one. This verse refers to our own doing. God makes righteous all those who consecrate themselves in faith and submit to the cleansing power of the Holy Spirit. THIS IS BY GOD'S GRACE ALONE!
quote:
This doesn't mean we have to make fun of an argument which opposes our own or speak of it in a condescending way. That doesn't seem the best way to treat the person to whom that argument belongs: our brother/sister. I'm sorry if you have misunderstood my intentions, McFatty. I am only able to control what I post, not how it is perceived. Thanks for your constructive criticism.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/12/2008 3:05:47 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 613
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
quote:
Which ones do you consider to be sin?
All of them, yes even number 7, ignorance is no excuse.
Before it is asked, I will answer, yes my standards and beliefs even apply to me.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/12/2008 3:38:09 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 725
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From: Augusta, GA
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quote:
Define "slip up". I have not used that term.
"slip up" is what I say to mean when I (or anyone else) commits sin, under full responsibility, without sin being the intention; a mistake which results in disobedience.
quote:
A Believer who is wholly sanctified, cleansed of original sin and the carnal nature, and loving God and others with all their being DOES NOT willfully, deliberately, intentionally disobey the known Will of God. That person is sinless AND holy at any given moment. That person also has the free will to choose continued sinless and holy living or deliberately disobey God. ALL of this occurs ONLY by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit!
I suppose I don't put as much importance on whether sin is deliberate or not, because the end result is exactly the same. My main point is that the saved still accidentally sin. The frustrating part for me is that some people won't admit that. Since breaking one point of the law is breaking the entire law, just one sin, even accidental, since the moment one accepts Christ would completely destroy the image of "sinlessness" and "holiness" we're talking about in this thread, unless we all realize and admit that the saved still accidentally sin. Can we all admit this?
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/12/2008 4:05:12 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3108
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
4. Knowing to do good but not doing it.
5. Still being angry at sunset, refusing to acknowledge a personal sin that has been truthfully pointed out to me by any source, anything that is not of faith, and/or all lying.
6. Unknowingly hurting another, unknowingly not following a clearly written law of G-d, and/or doing anything I did not know was wrong.
7. Accidentally telling something that was not true when I thought it was true.
8. Saying I am presently without sin. The initial 1.-3. are so obviously sinning behavior that they merit no further discussion.
4. Sins of ommission are just as much willful disobedience as sins of commission (1.-3.).
5. "truthfully pointed out to me by any source" is awfully broad. God is the only One who can define sin. Sometimes He uses others to share His Truth but since sin is defined by intent, we must be very careful not to read others' minds. (Especially on electronic discussion boards!)
"anything that is not of faith" is also awfully broad. Does a true Believer do "anything that is not of faith"?
6.-7. "unknowingly", "I did not know", "accidentally" - these are all possible sins of ignorance for which we are not held accountable under the imputed righteousness of Christ's Atonement. They have nothing to do with being holy by loving God and others with all our being. How can we disobey God accidentally?
8. "Saying I am presently without sin." If we are born of God we will not go on sinning - 1 John 3:9. That sounds to me like John is saying born-again Believers are presently without sin!
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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