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RE: Be Holy? - 5/13/2008 7:02:52 AM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
URForgiven
You are only free from sins power and temptation to the degree to which you are dependent upon Jesus Christ. In and of yourself you are powerless against sin. Christ is our power. Christian growth is learning to turn over more and more of ourselves to God.
This statement bothers me...... I am not powerless against sin. He has given me free will to choose. I choose whether I practice His will, study His words or follow in His ways.
I have to go back to the puppet thing again. He did not create us this way. He created us with choice. Being a puppet does not allow for any sort of effort on our part. Effort is demonstrated over and over in scripture. We not only have to look at His words, we have to see deeper into His actions. It took effort for Him to cross the lands to spread the Gospel, it took effort for Him to complete His mission, it took effort for Him to resist the temptation. So we, can't really sit here and say that holiness is not something we can achieve based on sole reliance upon Him. (by that i mean, Him literally coming into our bodies and taking every step for us). I can't say I have ever experienced that. Beside that, that concept eliminates in an all accountability for the actions we take. That does not makes us responsible for our choices, rather it allows us to place blame....
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/13/2008 7:52:11 AM
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URForgiven
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
URForgiven
You are only free from sins power and temptation to the degree to which you are dependent upon Jesus Christ. In and of yourself you are powerless against sin. Christ is our power. Christian growth is learning to turn over more and more of ourselves to God.
This statement bothers me...... I am not powerless against sin. He has given me free will to choose. I choose whether I practice His will, study His words or follow in His ways.
I have to go back to the puppet thing again. He did not create us this way. He created us with choice. Being a puppet does not allow for any sort of effort on our part. Effort is demonstrated over and over in scripture. We not only have to look at His words, we have to see deeper into His actions. It took effort for Him to cross the lands to spread the Gospel, it took effort for Him to complete His mission, it took effort for Him to resist the temptation. So we, can't really sit here and say that holiness is not something we can achieve based on sole reliance upon Him. (by that i mean, Him literally coming into our bodies and taking every step for us). I can't say I have ever experienced that. Beside that, that concept eliminates in an all accountability for the actions we take. That does not makes us responsible for our choices, rather it allows us to place blame....
A puppet does not have a choice. But if it did, the logical thing for it to do would be to choose to allow itself to be used as a puppet. Because then it would be fulfilling the purpose for which it had been created.
It is not about holiness, it is about the Holy One.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/13/2008 8:15:00 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Then why did G-d give the command to make sacrifice? Because Yeshua was still 1200 years away from making the Perfect Sacrifice! Abiyah, I'm sorry, but I really do not understand what you're getting at with this line of questioning. The Book of Hebrews makes it clear (at least to me) that the OT sacrificial system is obsolete, so I place my trust in the Atonement of Christ for all my sins of ignorance - past, present, and future. I cannot confess and repent for something I do not know about!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/13/2008 8:17:19 AM
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drmark
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quote:
It is not about holiness, it is about the Holy One. And the only way we can show glory, honor, and praise to the Holy One is to live our lives in holiness, by His grace and power!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/13/2008 8:30:45 AM
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URForgiven
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
It is not about holiness, it is about the Holy One. And the only way we can show glory, honor, and praise to the Holy One is to live our lives in holiness, by His grace and power!
That is an ego-centric position. The Christ-centric position is that we show glory, honor, and praise by allowing the One who is Holy, to be what He is, in and through us. This is holiness. He is not beside us; He is in us, leading us with all His grace and all His power.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/13/2008 8:34:18 AM
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drmark
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And for the last time, URF, because I'm really tired of repeating myself - Christ does not live our lives for us, or in our place, or on our behalf. We live our own lives in, through and with Christ! Your concept is unhealthy both theologically and psychologically.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/13/2008 8:37:00 AM
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URForgiven
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
And for the last time, URF, because I'm really tired of repeating myself - Christ does not live our lives for us, or in our place, or on our behalf. We live our own lives in, through and with Christ! Your concept is unhealthy both theologically and psychologically.
No. If you are living your life then you are living IN sin. The Christian life IS Christ, and Him living His life in and through us. Your theology is self-centered not Christ-centered.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/13/2008 10:54:41 AM
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drmark
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Your theology is self-centered not Christ-centered. Please explain to me what is "self-centered" about my constant referral to the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit. Your unfounded accusations are wearing thin, URF!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/13/2008 10:59:56 AM
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drmark
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quote:
I am thankful that you answered some of my questions, although I wish you could have given me the Scripture I requested for some of your beliefs. Actually, I'm not sure I could find a specific passage regarding sins of ignorance in the NT. Can you? The concept of the Atonement covering our sins of ignorance comes from centuries of tradition, personal experience, and common sense reasoning from Scripture. Please feel free to share Scripture that supports the continued use of sacrifices for these sins, Abiyah, and I will gladly reconsider my position.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/13/2008 11:31:28 AM
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URForgiven
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Your theology is self-centered not Christ-centered. Please explain to me what is "self-centered" about my constant referral to the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit. Your unfounded accusations are wearing thin, URF!
Because it is not about grace or the power of the Holy Spirit, it is about the person of Jesus Christ. You have substituted doctrine for the reality of Christ Himself. He is our only hope of glory...and holiness too btw.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/13/2008 2:42:34 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Because it is not about grace or the power of the Holy Spirit, it is about the person of Jesus Christ. You have substituted doctrine for the reality of Christ Himself. I'm speechless, URF. We have nothing further to discuss if you deny the essential doctrines of God's loving grace and the Holy Spirit's indwelling power. The "person of Jesus Christ" is seated at the Father's Right Hand (Luke 22:69, Eph 1:20, Col 3:1) and unless you're some heavenly angel, the only "reality" you have with Jesus Christ is mediated through the Holy Spirit by the Father's grace.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/13/2008 2:43:35 PM
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Heavendweller
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
According to the book that you (drmark) posted, the problem comes in that some of us are Calvinist and some Armenist(sp?) Based on these two doctrines is why we disagree. I'm not finished reading the book yet. I'm sure when I do, I will have more to say 
DD,
I would say that some of the debate stems from those who hold to OSAS and those who do not. And yes, there are those Calvinists who believe it's all been done for them at the cross so they don't have to do anything henceforth from being a Christian. This nullifies free will, personal choice, any kind of action on our part. For some, to even make mention of what we must do, what our responsiblities are as Christians, is considered devilish.
With that said, I know Calvinists who live as though what they do as Christians does matter. Which is why they don't live like the devil. 
Sometimes our manner of living can actually be quite different from the theology which we hold so dear.
Heavendweller
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/13/2008 2:54:03 PM
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URForgiven
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Because it is not about grace or the power of the Holy Spirit, it is about the person of Jesus Christ. You have substituted doctrine for the reality of Christ Himself. I'm speechless, URF. We have nothing further to discuss if you deny the essential doctrines of God's loving grace and the Holy Spirit's indwelling power. The "person of Jesus Christ" is seated at the Father's Right Hand (Luke 22:69, Eph 1:20, Col 3:1) and unless you're some heavenly angel, the only "reality" you have with Jesus Christ is mediated through the Holy Spirit by the Father's grace.
We do agree on on thing...we have nothing further to discuss.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/13/2008 2:54:05 PM
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deliveredarling
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I'm sure you are right. I did not realize what a Calvinist believed until I read this. I really didn't know that the way I believed was an actual doctrine. I just thought I believed what the Bible said.....
I haven't gotten to the Armenian part just yet, so I can't even comment on that.....
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/13/2008 3:43:22 PM
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pmilst
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Because it is not about grace or the power of the Holy Spirit, it is about the person of Jesus Christ. You have substituted doctrine for the reality of Christ Himself. I'm speechless, URF. We have nothing further to discuss if you deny the essential doctrines of God's loving grace and the Holy Spirit's indwelling power. The "person of Jesus Christ" is seated at the Father's Right Hand (Luke 22:69, Eph 1:20, Col 3:1) and unless you're some heavenly angel, the only "reality" you have with Jesus Christ is mediated through the Holy Spirit by the Father's grace.
drmark, that is just sound doctrine, our access to the Father is through His Spirit, with Christ being our Heavenly advocate.
_____________________________
1 Cor. 2: 9-10 "Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit..."
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/13/2008 4:32:25 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Because it is not about grace or the power of the Holy Spirit, it is about the person of Jesus Christ. You have substituted doctrine for the reality of Christ Himself.
I'm speechless, URF. We have nothing further to discuss if you deny the essential doctrines of God's loving grace and the Holy Spirit's indwelling power. The "person of Jesus Christ" is seated at the Father's Right Hand (Luke 22:69, Eph 1:20, Col 3:1) and unless you're some heavenly angel, the only "reality" you have with Jesus Christ is mediated through the Holy Spirit by the Father's grace.
Ga 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
I find myself in precarious position of agreeing and disagreeing with both of you at the same time. Ha Meshiach(The Messiah) and the Ruach Ha Chedosh(The Holy Spirit) are one. So, both indwell us. But this does not mean that we do not live in fleshly bodies and a material world.
Adonai created us from the dust of the earth and though the earth has been cursed for our sake, we are still His creation. Therefore, it is not the flesh itself that is bad, but subjecting ones judgement to it. We are to live in the real world which includes both the material and supernatural realms. Paul did not asked to be delivered from his body. He asked to be delivered from His dead body, or body of death. It is the death or putrid nature that is unacceptable to Adonai, not the body He created.
In conclusion, as we mortify this nature and subject ourselves to Adonai's ways we minimize the material effects of this rebelious nature that seeks to satisfy our insatiable short term desires that ignore the supernatural factors of life.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/13/2008 5:15:38 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Ga 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
I find myself in precarious position of agreeing and disagreeing with both of you at the same time. Ha Meshiach(The Messiah) and the Ruach Ha Chedosh(The Holy Spirit) are one. So, both indwell us. A great holiness verse, Bluethread, but let's look more carefully at the true meaning. Was Paul crucified on Mt Calvary with Christ? No, I'm pretty sure he was beheaded in Rome about 35 years later! Obviously, Paul is using metaphorical hyperbole to make a very strong point. We must die to our sinful nature so that the Holy Spirit can have control of our will so we may live in Christ's Love. How can the Second Person of the Trinity be living in Paul when Paul states twice in other Epistles that Christ is seated at the Father's Right Hand?!
Now regarding your assertion that Messiah and Holy Spirit are one. We must be very careful to not allow the limitations of our human minds and language to confuse the Three distinct, but not separate, Persons of the Triune Godhead. God the 3-in-1 (Adonai) is present in our hearts as saved/sanctified Believers, but it is specifically the Person of the Holy Spirit who interacts with us here on earth, NOT the Person of Christ!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/13/2008 5:31:49 PM
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Bluethread
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Yes, we must be very careful to not allow the limitations of our human minds and language to confuse the issue of the nature of Adonai. We have been warned before about going to far down into this debate over whether or not Adonai can be fully defined by trinitarian docrine. So, to stay on subject, what does "Christ liveth in me" mean, if not that the Spirit of Adonai Yeshua indwells in us? If it is hyperbole, how do we know that? Is our living in the flesh hyperbole? How about His love for us or His giving His life? And most importantly, in this thread, how does all of this relate to our being holy as Adonai is holy?
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/13/2008 6:53:48 PM
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drmark
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quote:
So, to stay on subject, what does "Christ liveth in me" mean, if not that the Spirit of Adonai Yeshua indwells in us? Yes, I thought that was exactly what I said in post #295 - "the Holy Spirit can have control of our will so we may live in Christ's Love." Does not say essentially the same thing as "the Spirit of Adonai Yeshua indwells in us"? It certainly does to me!
quote:
If it is hyperbole, how do we know that? I submit that being "crucified with Christ" and "Christ living in me" are both figures of speech since Paul obviously knows when and where Jesus was crucified and where and why Christ is now. Paul's statement would be a direct contradiction of many other Scripture passages if he meant it literally!
quote:
Is our living in the flesh hyperbole? Of course not! I live in the flesh, don't you?! Do you understand the usage of figures of speech, Bluethread? Indeed, Paul clarifies the first half of the verse (his metaphorical hyperbole) with the second half of verse 20 (his literal explanation). Paul specifically states that we must live our earthly life by our faith in the Second Person of the Trinity. He does NOT say that the Second Person of the Trinity lives our very life for us, on our behalf, and in our place as URF's faulty concept suggests!
quote:
And most importantly, in this thread, how does all of this relate to our being holy as Adonai is holy? I'm not sure how many times this has to be said, but it's far too important to miss! God makes us holy, by grace through faith, so that we do not have to willfully sin every day in thought, word, and deed because the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit enables us to love God with all our being and others as ourselves. Is that clear?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/13/2008 8:05:37 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Mark, I had asked you:
quote:
...what Scripture says that
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
God holds us accountable only for willful disobedience
You have never answered me. I find no Scripture that changes this. Scripture is everything; your and my opinions are less than nothing, so I asked for Scripture.
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ORIGINAL: Abiyah
Then why did G-d give the command to make sacrifice?
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ORIGINAL: drmark
Because Yeshua was still 1200 years away from making the Perfect Sacrifice!
But what about us? We are farther away from the year of His death -- about 1,970 years from it? Is it, then, still efficacious? How can we be sure, if it was not efficacious for the fathers? As someone already reminded you, according to the Bible, Messiah was slain from the foundation of the world. G-d is not bound by time. If His death was not working for them, then Abraham went to hell with Isaac, Jacob, Daniel, Enoch, Elijah, Elisha, Moses, David, Abel, Elisabeth, Joel, Joshua, Ruth, Joseph (Messiah's step-father), Zechariah, Hosea, Job, Deborah, ... shall I go on?
There is no salvation in any other than Messiah, there is no salvation through sacrifice, there is no works salvation. The only way that you can have a different salvation after Messiah's death is if you believe in different salvations for different people, in spite of what the Bible says.
If this is your contention, you are extremely mistaken. NO ONE was EVER saved other than through the Death and Resurrection of the Messiah.
< Message edited by Covaan_Meshuga -- 5/13/2008 8:13:35 PM >
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
A tree's fruit is obvious; you have to look harder for the worm hole.
G-d has only one natural Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/14/2008 7:46:08 AM
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drmark
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quote:
You have never answered me. I find no Scripture that changes this. Scripture is everything; your and my opinions are less than nothing, so I asked for Scripture. And I've already shared with you Jesus' "summation" (your word, not mine) of all the Law and Prophets. I'm sorry if you find that inadequate Scripture that changes this, but it's quite clear to millions of other Believers around the world.
quote:
But what about us? We are farther away from the year of His death -- about 1,970 years from it? Say what? We live after the Atonement, Moses lived before It!
quote:
As someone already reminded you, according to the Bible, Messiah was slain from the foundation of the world. G-d is not bound by time. Sorry, I'm not playing philosophical mind games here. The Suffering, Crucifixion, Burial, Resurrection, and Ascension are all historical events in time, so yes indeed, Jesus Christ was bound by time for 33 years. The Plan of Redemption was made from the foundation of the world but my Jesus died once and for all on a cruel cross one Friday afternoon outside Jerusalem. That is historical fact!
quote:
There is no salvation in any other than Messiah, there is no salvation through sacrifice, there is no works salvation. The only way that you can have a different salvation after Messiah's death is if you believe in different salvations for different people, in spite of what the Bible says.
If this is your contention, you are extremely mistaken. NO ONE was EVER saved other than through the Death and Resurrection of the Messiah. Abiyah, I do not know how much clearer I can make myself. Yes, there is no salvation in any other than Messiah. Yes, there is no salvation through sacrifice or our own works. Yes, God's grace saves all who believe in Him, before and after the Crucifixion and Resurrection. But no, I do not understand how the grace of God was efficacious for the fathers before the Atonement. If you have Scripture that explains this concept, please share it.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/14/2008 10:54:10 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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And, Mark, I don't know how I can be more clear either. I have presented Scripture after Scripture. I am sorry beyond measure that we write but do not actually communicate with one another.
You really try valiantly to show me your holiness doctrine, while I really do try to show you salvation, but the communication just doesn't seem to work. Whadayado?
I am curious, however, about a few things (I will avoid the temptation to write "a few final things," because I am sure this is not over! )
Where, in the Torah (or Law) do you find "Jesus' "summation" (your word, not mine) of all the Law and Prophets"? Can you give me chapter and verse? Do you believe that these "two" are enough, so the rest of the books in the Bible before Matthew are unnecessary or not relevant to today?
What happened to the souls of the fathers I mentioned in my list, since they apparently had no salvation through Messiah in your belief? If you believe they were saved, how did they acquire salvation? If they were not saved, did they all go to hell? If they did not go to hell, where are they?
And, since you brought it up, the idea that He died on Friday night: Did He? Hmmm. Three days and three nights. Let's see. Friday afternoon until Saturday afternoon -- one day; Saturday afternoon until Sunday afternoon -- two days; Sunday afternoon until Monday afternoon -- three days. Okay! If you say so!
< Message edited by Covaan_Meshuga -- 5/14/2008 11:46:19 AM >
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
A tree's fruit is obvious; you have to look harder for the worm hole.
G-d has only one natural Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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