RE: What would build unity in our churches? (Full Version)

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gmc4Jesus -> RE: What would build unity in our churches? (5/8/2008 7:26:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin

In answer to the OP's question: What can we do to build unity in our churches?

How about the return of Christ? Unfortunately, the deep-seated hold of denominationalism is paralyzing the church. Until we all figure out what it truly means to be meek and humble, unity is little more than a pipe dream.

Adam


This is technically correct. We will not reach perfect unity until Jesus comes to take us to be with Him. However, the reason that I asked the question is to get us to focus on building unity with each other instead of so much infighting that I see, even in some of the posts on this forum.

In John 13:34-35, Jesus says "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

As we focus on loving one another instead of trying to control or change one another, we can build on the essentials of our relationship with Jesus and the unity that will result from it.

Jesus said, 6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6)

Let us focus on building our relationship with Jesus Christ by getting to know Him. Then that love will power us in building a Christ-like relationship with other believers. We will be better able to focus on Jesus and be in harmony on those essentials, flexible on non-essentials and loving in all things.

The saying of Augustine: "In essentials, unity; In non-essentials, liberty; in All things; charity", has been a strong influence in my 58 years on this earth. I would that we could focus more on loving Jesus and one another and reaching the lost and focus less on trying to correct those who don't subscribe to our non-essentials.

Its all about who Jesus is!

God bless you as you continue building unity around Jesus Christ in the areas where you serve.



cybrjewls -> RE: What would build unity in our churches? (5/9/2008 10:17:22 AM)

Discension is sometimes sown by so-called well meaning persons who, supposedly not heretical in their Doctrine, do not sow in the spiritual peace that raises a harvest of righteouseness as written..... but sow in gossip about other 'denominations' or sects that exist; regarding how the 'official' stand of the sect does not agree with Sound Teaching. Rather, it is written that each is recognized by the kind of fruit that they bear in remaining in Christ Jesus and that there are tares among the wheat. But Jesus will keep all of the wheat.....

For the pharisees at time of Jesus' earthly ministry, had 'sound' doctrinal principles and knowledge, they thought, but The Kingdom was revealed to His Children for this Pleases God..... they neglected to love God or come to Him to have eternal life and thought that they had it because they could read The Writings...... instead, the prostitutes and 'sinners' came into The Kingdom and received the forgiveness that comes by faith..... and seven worse unclean spirits entered the fray for 'puffing up' regarding what people thought was knowledge while denying the Power of God.....


quote:

ORIGINAL: GroupW

It's not just the heretics that sew division. Sometimes they're the EASIEST to please ;)



Kat_D -> RE: What would build unity in our churches? (5/9/2008 10:27:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GroupW

It's not just the heretics that sew division. Sometimes they're the EASIEST to please ;)


Uh, just what stitch is best for "sew"ing division?...top, zig-zag or basting?



earthless -> RE: What would build unity in our churches? (5/9/2008 10:38:44 AM)

Prophetica,

That's too funny!



crankius -> RE: What would build unity in our churches? (5/9/2008 10:40:57 AM)

Ephesians 4:11-16
And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ-- from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.


This is a great passage about unity. It might be worth discussing in this thread.

For one, we have to know how to recognize biblical leadership, so that we will be equipped and edified as Christ intended. Under unbiblical leadership, we will easily be "tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting..."


And two, He desires that we grow up in all things into HIM, which tells me that our understanding of Christ is central to unity.


I personally think there is unity among believers--more unity than we recognize. There are unbelievers in the mix though (tares among the wheat), and that causes a lot of disunity.



gmc4Jesus -> RE: What would build unity in our churches? (5/9/2008 7:58:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crankius

Ephesians 4:11-16
And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ-- from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.


This is a great passage about unity. It might be worth discussing in this thread.

For one, we have to know how to recognize biblical leadership, so that we will be equipped and edified as Christ intended. Under unbiblical leadership, we will easily be "tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting..."


And two, He desires that we grow up in all things into HIM, which tells me that our understanding of Christ is central to unity.


I personally think there is unity among believers--more unity than we recognize. There are unbelievers in the mix though (tares among the wheat), and that causes a lot of disunity.


Crankius,
This is a good thought to share here. Just a few verses earlier, Paul also writes:
As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit— just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. (Ephesians 4:1-6)

My desire in this thread is to focus on what we are doing rather than criticize what others are not doing.

I like seeing events where several churches come together to participate and cooperate. They don't have to change what they do in their congregations to share in some events with other churches. Examples would be when churches come together to sponsor a Billy Graham (or similar) crusade, have community Good Friday, Easter SONrise, Thanksgiving services, etc. This makes a strong positive statement to the lost when we can agree to get along without compromising the authority of Scripture and diety of Christ.

Keep it up.



Heavendweller -> RE: What would build unity in our churches? (5/10/2008 1:30:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Right now the pattern is that we attend churches or denominations until we have a disagreement, and then we break off to find a new church or denomination... and if one can't be found, we run off and start one.

Very true! This is the hallmark of Protestantism. I say this having been a Protestant for over 30 years. It grieves my heart to see all the schisms, splits, divisions, sects, that have arisen within the ranks of Christendom. I was a member of a church that had a split because the pastor didn't believe in the "literal" interpretation of Genesis. He was a very scientific man with a degree in physics and considered that the "days" in Genesis could have been more than a literal 24 hours.

The congregational meetings that ensued to get rid of this man were deplorable. All in the name of claiming the Bible to be one's sole rule of authority and being willing to brand this pastor a "heretic."

Thus it is that currently, I am not regularly attending church anywhere. I have seen so much division in churches that I have become very skeptical of becoming a member of one.

When my husband and I left our last church, we began attending various churches of different denominations. Even when I liked some of the particular churches, the thought in the back of my mind was, "When will this church go through a split?" So it is that I am in a state of suspended animation, so to speak. I know not where I can attend a church in which a possible split won't occur.

Believe me, I don't say any of this with glee. One of my strongest desires is to unite with Christians who have the truest expression of Christian worship, practice, and doctrine. As I recently said to a dear person from our forums in a pm, I recognize that each faith tradition may have its weaknesses or even an incorrect understanding of certain doctrines. For me, the goal is finding the faith tradition that has the least amount of erroneous beliefs/teachings.

God Bless You All,
Heavendweller



Heavendweller -> RE: What would build unity in our churches? (5/10/2008 2:20:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: figmentPez

Ahem, and er, Ahem.

Those would be a good place to start. Admittedly a clause in the second was the reason for one of the earliest major splits in Christianity, but there's still a fairly good start there.

Figment, I agree with you on the importance of the Creeds. However, is has been my experience as a Protestant that most Evangelical Christians have little use for them. For example, when we left our non-denom. church last summer, my husband and I were looking for churches that recited the Creeds, or considered them as an important part of their doctrine. When I began calling various churches I would ask them about the Creeds. The attitude of most of these churches was that the Creeds aren't the Bible and we don't say them. Or they just found them insignificant. And this is why I have stated on more than one occasion that Protestantism seems to have the need to continually re-interpret the faith.

So what this re-interpreting means is that each new generation of Christians has to re-evaluate what former Christians have already clearly declared as Scriptural truth. And thus we have modern-day Christians questioning the Trinity, the deity of Christ, the gifts of the Spirit...on and on.

quote:

One thing I'd like to note about these early creeds, and others, is that they focus on God. On the revealed nature of the LORD, as found in scripture. I've said this before in another thread, but I'm happy to say it again. The most important part of Christian doctrine is God, and who we believe Him to be.

And another thing about these Creeds is they were declared as BIBLICAL/SCRIPTURAL truth by the Christian Church. Those people who opposed the truths declared in these Creeds were considered false brethren by the united Church. Modern evangelical Christianity doesn't even have enough unity to form a council and declare God's truth from Scripture. So it is that we have many self-ascribed "popes" believing they are called to declare God's truth, all using Scripture as their guide. And MANY of them disagreeing with each other.

quote:

What we believe about us humans, how we're supposed to act, how we're supposed to organize, how we're to relate to each other, etc, all that is secondary to seeking the LORD and who He has revealed Himself to be.

Figment, I agree with your former comment that knowing Who God is and Who and How He is revealed to us is of foremost importance. As our Lord Jesus said, "Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul, mind and strength." Therefore we must know this God whom we worship intimately and Who He reveals and claims Himself to be.
However with that said, how we are supposed to act is most definately connected to Who we understand God to be. If we think that He will hold on tightly to us, even if we reject Him through serious sin and want nothing to do with obeying Him, then what is our true understanding of such a God? Would our actions come down to being meaningless since no matter what we do, He will accept us as His children anyway?
How we live in our actions, words, deeds, thoughts, is most assuredly connected to Who we understand God to be. IOW, holy living cannot be separate from our understanding of, love for, commitment to, and submission to God.

quote:

Sadly, there are many Christians (and "christians") who like to claim that God isn't clear about Himself, and so we just have to focus on us instead. I've heard many times, no in so many words, that we can't understand God, so we don't have to worry about that, and should just focus on doing works. The problem with this, is that all that God instructs us to do is based on our love of Him! How can we know how to love God with all that we have, if we do not know who HE IS?

Agreed Figment. Therefore I conclude that what we believe about us humans, how we are to act, how we are to live, how we are to worship IS a necessary component to worshipping the true and living God.

Heavendweller



Heavendweller -> RE: What would build unity in our churches? (5/10/2008 2:42:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: abraxas
At the heart of the problem for Christians is the belief that the Bible can and should be regarded as the final authority on doctrine. That naive idealism opens the doors to anyone to presume that they are the ones correctly interpreting "what the Bible says" with a slew of others begging to differ and possibly even branding one another 'heretic'.

I agree with this comment entirely. And the proof results in (as you say),
opening "the doors to anyone to presume that they are the ones correctly interpreting "what the Bible says."

So if this is the problem, then what is the recourse, what is the solution? I have been asking myself this question for quite some time now. How is one to know for certain what "heresy" is? And what rubric/standard should be submitted to, adhered to, in arriving at what true doctrine is?

Just to say that the Holy Spirit is our guide and teacher is not enough. Many claiming to have the Holy Spirit as their guide differ with others who make the same claim. Thus it is that we have disunity. How can the Holy Spirit be confused? (rhetorical question here)

quote:

Quite a bit of the postmodern movement came about due to the ever-branching religious denominations and their never-ending battle over Biblical Truth.

I would say that the ever-branching religious denominations are a result of the post-modern movement. And to go back even further, I would say that the Reformation in its declaration to claim the Bible as its sole guide for its authority, opened up this "can of worms." Just my opinion. [;)]

Heavendweller



gmc4Jesus -> RE: What would build unity in our churches? (5/10/2008 3:02:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Heavendweller

It grieves my heart to see all the schisms, splits, divisions, sects, that have arisen within the ranks of Christendom.

God Bless You All,
Heavendweller


Heavendweller, I likewise feel your pain. That is why I brought this question to the discussion. We need to be focused on building bridges instead of building walls.

"They will know we are Christians by our love", not our divisiveness and infighting.

God bless and keep doing it for Jesus!



gmc4Jesus -> RE: What would build unity in our churches? (5/10/2008 3:15:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Heavendweller

quote:

ORIGINAL: abraxas
At the heart of the problem for Christians is the belief that the Bible can and should be regarded as the final authority on doctrine. That naive idealism opens the doors to anyone to presume that they are the ones correctly interpreting "what the Bible says" with a slew of others begging to differ and possibly even branding one another 'heretic'.


So if this is the problem, then what is the recourse, what is the solution?


I would propose that we should focus more on bearing the Fruit of the Spirit - 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. (Galatians 5:22-23)

If we are working on bearing fruit - love, joy, peace..., then we are building those bridges and tearing down those walls. I just opened a question under Bible abuot "Holy Spirit - Fruit vs. Power". I hope to discuss that issue on that thread. Some of it definitely applies to what we are discussing here.

Thank you for thoughts on this thread.



Heavendweller -> RE: What would build unity in our churches? (5/10/2008 3:40:38 PM)

ORIGINAL: gmc4Jesus

quote:

This is a good thought to share here. Just a few verses earlier, Paul also writes:
As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit— just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. (Ephesians 4:1-6)

Dear gm: Just take a look at some of the threads on this forum addressing the topic of Baptism. Here you point to the verse in Ephesians where St. Paul speaks of "one baptism." There is such a difference of opinions on these Baptism threads as to just what Baptism really is. Do you suppose that Paul the Apostle, along with the other apostles, and in concert with the Christian Church all understood what this "one Baptism" was/is and were united in their belief? I certainly do.


quote:

I like seeing events where several churches come together to participate and cooperate. They don't have to change what they do in their congregations to share in some events with other churches. Examples would be when churches come together to sponsor a Billy Graham (or similar) crusade, have community Good Friday, Easter SONrise, Thanksgiving services, etc. This makes a strong positive statement to the lost when we can agree to get along without compromising the authority of Scripture and diety of Christ.

Very likely, many Christians would consider several churches coming together as ecuminism and not a good thing. As far as Billy Graham is concerned, I have read where many think him to be a heretic, a false brother, etc. right here on Crosswalk.com. I'm not saying that this is my opinion, but rather the opinion of many who consider themselves to be Christians on this forum. Why they think this way, I'm not really sure.

Heavendweller



gmc4Jesus -> RE: What would build unity in our churches? (5/10/2008 7:03:19 PM)

Heavendweller,
While I recognize the truth of what you are saying, it seems to me that the comments you are referring to are the very thing we are seeking to address.

I do not in any way advocate ecuminism, so I'm sorry that you feel it is necessary to bring it up. This is a thread on building unity, not looking for reasons for more disparity.

I do not wish to judge those who want to point out their pet grievences, but rather plant some fruit of love and seeking on how we can be unified in our priorities and beliefs. Let's build on who Christ is in us instead of fussing over differences.

God bless you as we continue getting to know Jesus.



abraxas -> RE: What would build unity in our churches? (5/11/2008 10:54:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
So if this is the problem, then what is the recourse, what is the solution? I have been asking myself this question for quite some time now. How is one to know for certain what "heresy" is? And what rubric/standard should be submitted to, adhered to, in arriving at what true doctrine is?

Just to say that the Holy Spirit is our guide and teacher is not enough. Many claiming to have the Holy Spirit as their guide differ with others who make the same claim. Thus it is that we have disunity. How can the Holy Spirit be confused? (rhetorical question here)


I'm not a Christian, so keep in mind my thoughts are an "outsider's". I don't think there is anything that can be done about it. As long as human salvation is contingent on believing certain "essentials"--and therefore human condemnation is linked to getting those "essentials" wrong, this will be a heated and divisive issue. I don't see that changing any time soon. Christian anarchy (or quasi-anarchy?) is far better than Christian authoritarianism--especially one backed by a State! So, it could be less divided, but a whole lot worse.

quote:

I would say that the ever-branching religious denominations are a result of the post-modern movement. And to go back even further, I would say that the Reformation in its declaration to claim the Bible as its sole guide for its authority, opened up this "can of worms." Just my opinion. [;)]


You may have a point. Probably a chicken-egg thing, and certainly the ethos of postmodernism was around in our culture long before the movement itself.

gmc's point on the Galatians verses is nice. Not sure how it can accomodate doctrinal divergences, but maybe whenever those can be set aside they can point in the right direction. I remember a few years back some Christian churches were resisting a porn store being opened. The Mormon Church wanted to join the effort and it caused several of the Christian churches to drop out of the fight. This may have been one of those times when gmc's comments would apply.



gaylel1 -> RE: What would build unity in our churches? (5/11/2008 11:32:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: THEREDCAPE

Unity hinges on:
agreement in the basics tenets of the faith
swift removal of heretics from the pulpits
The laity having a working knowledge of apologetics
False teachings NOT being tolerated in the church..whether in Sunday school classes, retreats, workshops, etc.

Most disunity I see circles around a lack of knowledge of scripture, ignorance in scripture interpretation, and a steady diet of televangelists.



I agree. We in the church should sound the alarm as far as false teaching is concerned, even those that are on televison and the movements (Emergent Church, etc..) that are getting away from bibicial truth.

And if you criticize them, you are labled as "non christian" and vice versa and starting "disunity" in the church.

But with the racial issue, that a pet peeve with me because some (not all) churches are unaccepting of people of other races, let alone they are afraid to go where these people go and minister to them because of fear and stereotypes they have been fed on down to their ancestors. I seen some of this on the board too and some say that "You should not make us feel guilty because of this issue." I'm sorry, but there are some things which you need to feel guilty. And maybe it will have people turn to God and repent of their sin of indifference and have a heart for those who are in the inner cities.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: What would build unity in our churches? (5/11/2008 12:57:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: davelinde
Gossip is one of the biggest unity busters I've ever seen. Teach against it vigorously.

Indeed! But call it what it is -- sin -- whether it is the Sunday school teacher, the pastor, the pastor's spouse, a child, the deacon, or whomever. Gossip is sin, not just a personal problem or habit that we whisper about or avoid someone about.

Also, what is gossip? What all does gossip include? I ask because I don't know, and I worry about that.

...But that is not specifically what this thread is about.
_____________________________

Regarding unity within the congregation, I have learned that the worst problem is that most congregations are horribly superficial in their relationships with one another. Some congregations read the Scriptures acknowledging that believers are "family," some sing about that, and some actually go so far as to call one another "brother" and "sister," yet there is no real and lasting relationship between most of the congregants. No one notices when someone is not there because they are sick, and no one calls. People can be in the hospital, and the congregation is oblivious. People who had attended for months and even years can leave, and they are not missed for weeks, or not missed at all! Long-time members can pass away, and after the funeral, the congregation forgets they even existed, while the family is in pain and longs for just a minor sign that their loved one has not been immediately forgotten. This isn't good!

Further, regarding relationship, long ago, I learned that people who are not among -- how shall I say it? -- the most loved among any group, large or small, are not loved because people are not interested enough in them to try to get to know them. One of my first experiences with this was with a woman in my childhood congregation who abused me. As an adult, with children of my own, I was eating lunch with my children, and she raised her hand to strike me, coming to a stop just inches from my face. I determined then to learn why she was who she was. We had several long conversations after this incident, and there was no way to avoid loving her in spite of herself. This led to learning if I was not fond of someone, it was invariably because I did not know them.

Bottom line: It is hard not to love someone we know. Unity can be instigated by simply having relationship -- real relationship, not the superficial church-get-togethers and small groups, which certainly have thier place and are necessary! But relationship that is truly personal, real, out of learned fondness.



lw9 -> RE: What would build unity in our churches? (5/11/2008 11:38:51 PM)

Covaan_Meshuga, that was a beautiful post. I love that you took the time to sit down with the abusive woman from your past and talk to her. Your insightful thoughts are always welcome!



gmc4Jesus -> RE: What would build unity in our churches? (5/12/2008 12:36:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: abraxas
I'm not a Christian, so keep in mind my thoughts are an "outsider's". I don't think there is anything that can be done about it. As long as human salvation is contingent on believing certain "essentials"--and therefore human condemnation is linked to getting those "essentials" wrong, this will be a heated and divisive issue. I don't see that changing any time soon. Christian anarchy (or quasi-anarchy?) is far better than Christian authoritarianism--especially one backed by a State! So, it could be less divided, but a whole lot worse.

gmc's point on the Galatians verses is nice. Not sure how it can accomodate doctrinal divergences, but maybe whenever those can be set aside they can point in the right direction. I remember a few years back some Christian churches were resisting a porn store being opened. The Mormon Church wanted to join the effort and it caused several of the Christian churches to drop out of the fight. This may have been one of those times when gmc's comments would apply.


Abraxas, Thank you for bringing an outsider's thoughts into this discussion. Authotitarianism can only be based on the Bible and that has to be done with love and an openess to find the truth, not prove you right and the other person wrong.

The Fruit of the Spirit is important because it focuses on loving God and loving others. When we are love motivated, we are more open to building unity and less prone to infighting. How are we going to persuade you that God loves you and that Jesus died for your sins if all we are doing is fighting over which one of us is more right than the other.

May God show His love to you and draw you into His Kingdom.



gmc4Jesus -> RE: What would build unity in our churches? (5/12/2008 12:50:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
Regarding unity within the congregation, I have learned that the worst problem is that most congregations are horribly superficial in their relationships with one another. Some congregations read the Scriptures acknowledging that believers are "family," some sing about that, and some actually go so far as to call one another "brother" and "sister," yet there is no real and lasting relationship between most of the congregants. No one notices when someone is not there because they are sick, and no one calls. People can be in the hospital, and the congregation is oblivious. People who had attended for months and even years can leave, and they are not missed for weeks, or not missed at all! Long-time members can pass away, and after the funeral, the congregation forgets they even existed, while the family is in pain and longs for just a minor sign that their loved one has not been immediately forgotten. This isn't good!

Further, regarding relationship, long ago, I learned that people who are not among -- how shall I say it? -- the most loved among any group, large or small, are not loved because people are not interested enough in them to try to get to know them. One of my first experiences with this was with a woman in my childhood congregation who abused me. As an adult, with children of my own, I was eating lunch with my children, and she raised her hand to strike me, coming to a stop just inches from my face. I determined then to learn why she was who she was. We had several long conversations after this incident, and there was no way to avoid loving her in spite of herself. This led to learning if I was not fond of someone, it was invariably because I did not know them.

Bottom line: It is hard not to love someone we know. Unity can be instigated by simply having relationship -- real relationship, not the superficial church-get-togethers and small groups, which certainly have thier place and are necessary! But relationship that is truly personal, real, out of learned fondness.


Meshuga, You have touched on an important part of the key to unity. If we would work on loving one another as much as Jesus loves us (see Ephesians 5:-30) we would find loveable people in every congregation.

I will contend that the problem of superficial relationships is a result of lack of knowledge about Jesus and His life and teachings. Many people have attended their church for years and still know little about Jesus Christ, His life and teachings. Those who only attend periodically are going to be even more immature in their knowledge and relationship with Christ unless they are doing some serious self-study on their own.

In churches that I have visited and in conversations with pastors that I personally know, there is a need in our churches for a reconnecting with the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. Getting to know Jesus and learning to love as Jesus loves us will do great things to bring Christians closer to Him and closer to each other. This is what will tear down walls and build bridges of love, respect and fellowship.

God bless you as you continue to walk with Him.



deliveredarling -> RE: What would build unity in our churches? (5/12/2008 7:43:27 AM)

I have some thoughts on this here. There won't be total unity within the body. We are told over and over to love,love, love, love, love ,love almost to the point it is sickening. I say this because people believe that love is an emotion. People believe that love means to accept and tolerate sin. We almost talk so much about love in the body of Christ that we have made Jesus out to be a pansy. Division comes because somebody took a stand against a "heretical" teaching. Do we really need to focus on unity or is it more important to straighten out our own walks first? I really just don't get the reason for division anyway. The Bible is clear, there are just some people who don't like what it says. They do prefer to redefine it's meaning and context. new term here: It's called Convenient Christianity. One makes there beliefs convenient to their own lifestyle and encourage others to do the same.



abraxas -> RE: What would build unity in our churches? (5/12/2008 10:59:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gmc4Jesus

Abraxas, Thank you for bringing an outsider's thoughts into this discussion. Authotitarianism can only be based on the Bible and that has to be done with love and an openess to find the truth, not prove you right and the other person wrong.


Thank you, too, for being open to an outsider's thoughts. Take them with as much salt as needed. The thing about authoritarianism being based on the Bible is that the Bible is only a text, and is silent until it is read and interpreted. The question of authority is inevitably transfered onto interpretation. It is not true, as some claim, that "the Bible is clear", or that "the Bible interprets itself." These types of (untintended) hubris are committed by people who can't accept that there can be other reasonable ways to look at the Bible than the way that seems correct to them.

What plays out in Christendom--what defines Christian orthodoxy? To me it has to a lot do with "majority rule" (in a cultural sense, not an actual vote) and a lot to do with power structures. I wouldn't dare hash it out beyond that but I see those two factors as fundamental.

That's why I don't see there ever being unity, or even a surprising shift toward unity, doctrinally speaking. It's far too simple to say it's because people "prefer to redefine the Bible's meaning and context", as deliveredarling states. I have no doubt that there are people across the various Christian divides, as well as beyond, who strive to approach these these things with love and an openness to find the truth. I try to myself. Seriously!

edit: not sure why this last part is all in a quote box--I've bolded your comments to help clarify.

Good night and I hope all the mothers here had a great Mother's Day.

quote:

The Fruit of the Spirit is important because it focuses on loving God and loving others. When we are love motivated, we are more open to building unity and less prone to infighting. [\quote]

Although for the reasons I've given I think this will require setting aside doctrinal issues, I still think this is a terrific bit of wisdom. I subscribe to an animal welfare magazine called "Best Friends", and a few months back they had a series of articles on interfaith efforts to help animals. It was inspiring to read. This is a link to a search I did on their site--I'm sure some of the hits are what I had read. Just to throw one example in there of a means to bring together, despite the differences!

Best Friends



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: What would build unity in our churches? (5/12/2008 11:13:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gmc4Jesus
I will contend that the problem of superficial relationships is a result of lack of knowledge about Jesus and His life and teachings. Many people have attended their church for years and still know little about Jesus Christ, His life and teachings. Those who only attend periodically are going to be even more immature in their knowledge and relationship with Christ unless they are doing some serious self-study on their own.

In churches that I have visited and in conversations with pastors that I personally know, there is a need in our churches for a reconnecting with the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. Getting to know Jesus and learning to love as Jesus loves us will do great things to bring Christians closer to Him and closer to each other. This is what will tear down walls and build bridges of love, respect and fellowship.

God bless you as you continue to walk with Him.

I have to admit that your response horrifies me, because I don't want to think that of people. This is so difficult for me to admit of those I knew that I didn't even think of it. I couldn't.

One reason that this horrifies me is personal experience; the other is the number of people in so many congregations who had said that this is a major problem in their churches.



gmc4Jesus -> RE: What would build unity in our churches? (5/12/2008 2:17:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deliveredarling

I have some thoughts on this here. There won't be total unity within the body. We are told over and over to love,love, love, love, love ,love almost to the point it is sickening. I say this because people believe that love is an emotion. People believe that love means to accept and tolerate sin. We almost talk so much about love in the body of Christ that we have made Jesus out to be a pansy. Division comes because somebody took a stand against a "heretical" teaching. Do we really need to focus on unity or is it more important to straighten out our own walks first? I really just don't get the reason for division anyway. The Bible is clear, there are just some people who don't like what it says. They do prefer to redefine it's meaning and context. new term here: It's called Convenient Christianity. One makes there beliefs convenient to their own lifestyle and encourage others to do the same.


On the one hand, there will never be total unity because as much as we may try, it is going to be a God thing to get rid of human bias that lies underneath the disunity. At the same time, I believe that it is something that is important to work towards.

It is also appropriate that you would address "love". Too many people, Christians included, do not have a Biblical understanding of love. They think of it as an emotion. Likewise many Christians base their beliefs and worship on emotions. When your emotions come from a different experience than mine, even though they may still be within the Christian experience, then we build misunderstanding and conflict instead of realizing what love is.

Maybe we should take the verbage to clarify what we mean when we talk about love in the Christian perspective. Jesus lived it and Paul wrote a very good defenition in I Corinthians 13:1-13. Love is not an emotion, but an attitude coupled with action. Love is when we put the interests of others ahead of our own selfish interests. Jesus loved us so much that He died for our sins (including the sin of dividing from one another in beliefs and fellowsihp). Could we learn to love others like Jesus loves us?

One other thing. We need to remember that loving someone does not exclude them from punishment if they do wrong. It simply means that even though they have to be punished, we still care about them and their souls. (This is a topic for another thread.)



deliveredarling -> RE: What would build unity in our churches? (5/12/2008 3:01:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gmc4Jesus

quote:

One other thing. We need to remember that loving someone does not exclude them from punishment if they do wrong. It simply means that even though they have to be punished, we still care about them and their souls. (This is a topic for another thread



I absolutely agree, however it is the definition of love that brings about disunity. Love is where the divisiveness comes in. Disunity comes in because some one believes differently than the group. They don't consider loving one another as themselves, they are considering whether it is right or wrong. The definition of love defines a person's doctrine. To give you an example, I started a thread on How do you see Jesus. i waited long enough to get a few responses and then asked the second part of this question, How does how you see Jesus fit into your doctrine? (something like that) This is what Christianity has boiled down, how one sees Jesus and then they find supporting scriptures to back up their beliefs. This causes disunity. As for building unity in churches, can it really be done by our efforts alone? It's kind of like world hunger and peace on earth. I don't mean to be pessimistic or sound like a doomsdayer...... I just don't have a good answer for you[&o]



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: What would build unity in our churches? (5/12/2008 3:05:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lw9
Covaan_Meshuga, that was a beautiful post. I love that you took the time to sit down with the abusive woman from your past and talk to her. Your insightful thoughts are always welcome!

Oh, wow. I did not see this post until now. Thank you so much!



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