Forgiving Yourself. Biblical? (Full Version)

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YZGUY -> Forgiving Yourself. Biblical? (5/7/2008 12:24:41 PM)

Hey all! I've heard it over and over again that people say "Even though God forgives you, you have to forgive yourself." I have my opinions about this, but would like to hear yours. Is this Biblical, and if so, can you make an argument for it? If not, then why do think it is not Biblical?



DaveW -> RE: Forgiving Yourself. Biblical? (5/7/2008 1:12:04 PM)

Forgiveness in the bible always involves someone else. There is no mention or seemingly even thought of forgiving one's self.



Liveloved -> RE: Forgiving Yourself. Biblical? (5/7/2008 1:14:41 PM)

quote:

"Even though God forgives you, you have to forgive yourself."


Perhaps because we've placed ourselves higher than God. It's a common problem. It's called self love. It's called pride. It's not thinking of ourselves rightly, as God thinks of and sees us, but having an inflated opinion of yourself.

And many times this wrong 'self' opinion is borne out of lack of self esteem. I've been there. But what the Lord showed me is that I was exalting what I thought, what I had been told by others (whether with words or through actions), ABOVE what God said of me. I had to stop believing the lies and listen to and believe the truth.

I had to come to a right understanding of my 'self'. Not lesser, not more but right. I am a sinner. God knows that. If I think anything other than that I am wrong. But He loves me. He chose me. He has redeemed me. I have to believe that, too, because it is true.

When I accept and believe the truth about me as God has revealed it in His word, then I can receive His forgiveness and get over my 'self'. But it's a life long process. As a friend of mine says, this daily dying is a killing business. It is that indeed.[:)]



Calea37 -> RE: Forgiving Yourself. Biblical? (5/7/2008 1:22:43 PM)

All I know is that during a time in my life when I couldn't/wouldn't forgive myself I hated myself. I believed God had forgiven me, but I just couldn't forgive myself. I was living a condemned life (by my own making). I had to take Romans 8:1-2 to heart: Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.



Dakotasunbeam -> RE: Forgiving Yourself. Biblical? (5/7/2008 1:36:52 PM)

Well, whenever I try to understand questions like this, or answer them for myself, I try to reason usuing God's word. This helps me not to get into trouble about whether it's me or some new fangled doctrine. [8D]

Jesus Christ says love your neighbor as you love yourself.
He also said forgive your neighbor/brother seventy times seven. I can therefore conclude if I must love love my neighbor as myself and I must forgive my neighbor, I must also forgive myself.

On the subject of self esteem, I've recently had a great revelation. Our problem is not thinking that we are less than someone else, but thinking that there is even anything to attain to . . . and that we are due anything. You'd be surprised how big your "esteem" would grow, if you didn't EXPECT anything from anyone and didn't respect persons. I'm learning that now, and its amazingly freeing!



jmjphe -> RE: Forgiving Yourself. Biblical? (5/7/2008 1:48:03 PM)

This porbably falls under the saying that one would despise thier own behavior. In any case it indicates that an individual is not happy with things they are doing whether it be in thought, action attitude etc. I feel a great place to read of this is Romans, more so Romans Chapter 8. Paul himself despises his own behaivor but points clearly, to the solution. If you are constantly dwelling on the past, let it go. Dwelling only keeps you in a rut in all asepcts.

This doesnt mean take all things you do in stride. Change is iminate. Just don't draw your core identity from it. Meaning that no matter what, you are a Child of the living God through Jesus Christ despite whats floating in your mind.

I'd also suggest reading through the book of Malachi and 2nd Corinthians. They decribe spiritual health based in God through Christ. We are Children of God through Chirst end of. Despite what your mind tells you. Eventually youll gain a foot hold over your mind, this move is spirit driven, and this will catch like wild fire with time, prayer, understanding etc.



DaveW -> RE: Forgiving Yourself. Biblical? (5/7/2008 2:02:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dakotasunbeam

Jesus Christ says love your neighbor as you love yourself.
He also said forgive your neighbor/brother seventy times seven. I can therefore conclude if I must love love my neighbor as myself and I must forgive my neighbor, I must also forgive myself.
I am not saying this is wrong, but to try to make logical constructs like this out of scripture is IMO dangerous. God's ways and thoughts are higher than our own, so it seems to be His logic system is too.

This is not clearly authorized in scripture.



Dakotasunbeam -> RE: Forgiving Yourself. Biblical? (5/7/2008 2:12:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dakotasunbeam

Jesus Christ says love your neighbor as you love yourself.
He also said forgive your neighbor/brother seventy times seven. I can therefore conclude if I must love love my neighbor as myself and I must forgive my neighbor, I must also forgive myself.
I am not saying this is wrong, but to try to make logical constructs like this out of scripture is IMO dangerous. God's ways and thoughts are higher than our own, so it seems to be His logic system is too.

This is not clearly authorized in scripture.

This is why He gave us His word. So that we may renew our mind in Christ. So that we may use God's logic to reason. The Bible says, "have the mind of Christ." I dare say, it would not have been written if it were not possible. If such constructs are dangerous, we must never read or reason using the Bible as guide. That's just wrong. God tells us we are to study the word of God, to be renewed in the spirit of our mind, to put off the old man/mind. To say that is dangerous is the equivalent of saying, "it's dangerous to follow Christ, He might lead you off a cliff. To think that YOU can actually follow the Almighty God is presumptuous." That's bunk. We are suppose to reason with the Word of God. How can we presume to live a godly life, if we cannot with certainty reason with the Word of God? Why ever would you suggest such a thing?



DaveW -> RE: Forgiving Yourself. Biblical? (5/7/2008 2:57:26 PM)

I completely agree with reading and studying. We must know exactly what the text does and does not say. What I disagree with is coming up with some idea based on our logic that is not clearly spelled out in the text.

I did not say it was impossible or necessarily sinful. What I said was it is dangerous. That is what led us to the current situation of calvinist vs arminianist, pretrib vs post trib, tongues vs cessationism, law vs grace, etc. Someone made a logical construct and someone else made a logical construct and ended up on opposite ends of things.

God said what He said and leave it at that.

BTW, the text says

1 Corinthians 2:16b ...But we have the mind of Christ.

That is all of us together, no one individual. The text is PLURAL.



deliveredarling -> RE: Forgiving Yourself. Biblical? (5/7/2008 4:07:29 PM)

If God forgives us, who are we to not forgive ourselves?

I agree with Dakota and would have posted the same scripture.



YZGUY -> RE: Forgiving Yourself. Biblical? (5/7/2008 4:26:34 PM)

I agree that it seems reasonable, that is, forgiving yourself. But the concept of self-forgiveness does seem foreign in Scriptures (not there) - which is enough to be suspect. If God forgives us, then is there anything left to be done but to accept His forgiveness/grace? Is God's forgiveness and Christ's death on the cross enough or must there be more? Are we then adding to the gospel by saying, to be totally free of sin and the effects of sin, that not only does God have to do his part, but I have to do my part, too?



LCannon -> RE: Forgiving Yourself. Biblical? (5/7/2008 4:31:55 PM)

Probably the concept of 'forgiving oneself' is rooted in guilt over a lack of release of pain or grudging against past circumstance. Some issues aren't easily dismissed whether petty or substanial, however, as with worship(or 'family') experience the value is in what we bring to the experience rather than what we take away.



JimboFletch -> RE: Forgiving Yourself. Biblical? (5/7/2008 4:41:06 PM)

Perhaps it isn't a matter of forgiving oneself, but having enough faith to receive God's forgiveness when it has been given.



deliveredarling -> RE: Forgiving Yourself. Biblical? (5/7/2008 5:23:09 PM)

If we accept Christ's forgiveness, then wouldn't it be "prideful" to not forgive ourselves? As in us saying we are bigger than Him to forgive ourselves, that we know better than He?



Calea37 -> RE: Forgiving Yourself. Biblical? (5/7/2008 5:43:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: YZGUY

I agree that it seems reasonable, that is, forgiving yourself. But the concept of self-forgiveness does seem foreign in Scriptures (not there) - which is enough to be suspect. If God forgives us, then is there anything left to be done but to accept His forgiveness/grace? Is God's forgiveness and Christ's death on the cross enough or must there be more? Are we then adding to the gospel by saying, to be totally free of sin and the effects of sin, that not only does God have to do his part, but I have to do my part, too?


For me forgiving myself wasn't a prerequisite for being forgiven by God; it just made me able to live a life that would glorify Him. Not very glorifying walking around in shame and self reproach. [&:]



Dakotasunbeam -> RE: Forgiving Yourself. Biblical? (5/7/2008 6:05:27 PM)

Dave, Thank you! That scripture you provided just cemented everything I was saying. Thanks again! Dave, you fail to see how that unforgiveness is a heart issue in which God cannot hear our prayers if we do not forgive. It is not about self-glorification or self-diefication (sp), its about having a heart that is pure with no impurities in it (like unforgiveness, bitterness, malice) things of such a nature. God is looking at our hearts. You have to use all of the Bible to make sense of things. Knowledge alone is not sufficient. The Bible articulates, in that it all connects and makes sense. If there is a problem, we can guess on which end the error has occurred. Many of those discussions you just mentioned are nothing more than men who refuse to accept all of the manifold aspects of God's divine genius and are unable to reconcile it in ther own finite brain. So they argue. Just accept and be like a child.
quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

I completely agree with reading and studying. We must know exactly what the text does and does not say. What I disagree with is coming up with some idea based on our logic that is not clearly spelled out in the text.

I did not say it was impossible or necessarily sinful. What I said was it is dangerous. That is what led us to the current situation of calvinist vs arminianist, pretrib vs post trib, tongues vs cessationism, law vs grace, etc. Someone made a logical construct and someone else made a logical construct and ended up on opposite ends of things.

God said what He said and leave it at that.

BTW, the text says

1 Corinthians 2:16b ...But we have the mind of Christ.

That is all of us together, no one individual. The text is PLURAL.



Liveloved -> RE: Forgiving Yourself. Biblical? (5/7/2008 6:08:17 PM)

quote:

For me forgiving myself wasn't a prerequisite for being forgiven by God; it just made me able to live a life that would glorify Him. Not very glorifying walking around in shame and self reproach.


Calea,

That's exactly why we can't elevate 'what we think' or 'our own opinion' or 'someone else's opinion' above what God says. See II Cor 10:3-5. When we do that, that opinion is the 'lofty thing' or 'fortress' that these verses speak of as needing to be destroyed.

God loves us and His view of us is the one we need to believe. He gave Jesus for us and that makes us very valuable.[:)] It took me awhile to come to this place of believing what God said about me too. Bless ya.

Don't hang your head in shame. We are beautiful to Him and all glorious within. Read about yourself in Psalm 45 and be blessed! [:)]



YZGUY -> RE: Forgiving Yourself. Biblical? (5/8/2008 8:05:41 AM)

quote:

If we accept Christ's forgiveness, then wouldn't it be "prideful" to not forgive ourselves? As in us saying we are bigger than Him to forgive ourselves, that we know better than He?


Or...Is it prideful to say, "Sorry God, Your forgiveness is not enough for me. Your grace is not enough, it is insufficient. Now I must forgive myself."

quote:

Perhaps it isn't a matter of forgiving oneself, but having enough faith to receive God's forgiveness when it has been given.


I think you may be right. Perhaps it is a matter of understanding God's grace, what He fully accomplished on the cross, and humbling ourselves to the point of accepting His grace fully. As Calea mentioned Rom 8:1 - "there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus." If Christ forgives us and does not condemn us any longer, we should not be condemning ourselves; which deletes the need for self-punishment (guilt) and self-forgiveness.



DaveW -> RE: Forgiving Yourself. Biblical? (5/8/2008 8:31:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Liveloved

Don't hang your head in shame. We are beautiful to Him and all glorious within. Read about yourself in Psalm 45 and be blessed!

Luk 17:7 "Which of you, having a slave plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, 'Come immediately and sit down to eat'?
Luk 17:8 "But will he not say to him, 'Prepare something for me to eat, and properly clothe yourself and serve me while I eat and drink; and afterward you may eat and drink'?
Luk 17:9 "He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were commanded, does he?
Luk 17:10 "So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, 'We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.'"

1Ti 1:15 It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all.

Phi 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
Phi 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Phi 2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
Phi 2:8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

That is the more biblical attitude.



deliveredarling -> RE: Forgiving Yourself. Biblical? (5/8/2008 9:18:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: YZGUY

quote:


Or...Is it prideful to say, "Sorry God, Your forgiveness is not enough for me. Your grace is not enough, it is insufficient. Now I must forgive myself."


I think this is exactly what we are saying to God when we don't forgive ourselves. maybe I didn't phrase it in a clear way.



Ephesians4_32 -> RE: Forgiving Yourself. Biblical? (5/8/2008 9:34:40 AM)

Can we truly love someone if we aren't willing to forgive him?

Matthew 22
39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Ephesians 5
29For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

Oh, sorry, Dakota already said that!



URForgiven -> RE: Forgiving Yourself. Biblical? (5/8/2008 9:44:34 AM)

The Bible never instructs anyone to forgive themselves, nor to love themselves. There is good reason for this, God knows we already love ourselves and have no problem forgiving ourselves.

It is others we have trouble loving and forgiving. And yes, pride is at the root of it.

Peace



iamjc-s -> RE: Forgiving Yourself. Biblical? (5/8/2008 9:47:03 AM)

-
Ps 130:4 But you forgive us, so that we should stand in awe of you.

Eze 16:63 I will forgive all the wrongs you have done, but you will remember them and be too ashamed to open your mouth." The Sovereign Lord has spoken.

Acts 10:15 The voice spoke to him a second time, "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean."
-



Ephesians4_32 -> RE: Forgiving Yourself. Biblical? (5/8/2008 10:07:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: URForgiven

There is good reason for this, God knows we already love ourselves and have no problem forgiving ourselves.


Well, maybe I'm different. I do have trouble forgiving myself.



Calea37 -> RE: Forgiving Yourself. Biblical? (5/8/2008 10:12:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Liveloved


That's exactly why we can't elevate 'what we think' or 'our own opinion' or 'someone else's opinion' above what God says. See II Cor 10:3-5. When we do that, that opinion is the 'lofty thing' or 'fortress' that these verses speak of as needing to be destroyed.

God loves us and His view of us is the one we need to believe. He gave Jesus for us and that makes us very valuable.[:)] It took me awhile to come to this place of believing what God said about me too. Bless ya.

Don't hang your head in shame. We are beautiful to Him and all glorious within. Read about yourself in Psalm 45 and be blessed! [:)]


Thanks LL!



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