RE: Grand Theft Auto 4 is complete smut (Full Version)

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McFatty -> RE: Grand Theft Auto 4 is complete smut (5/10/2008 1:00:59 PM)

My point is that the argument for it being a roleplay situation is not valid unless it's also valid for playing with action figures or playing cap guns.

The few times I've played the GTA games, I've never seen the prostitute thing happen, so I don't know about all that. It seems that's an incredibly minute part of the game if it's there, but everyone's talking like it's the whole point of the game. Even if it was, that's on the adult playing the game to decide, not the vocal opponents of the game.



SteveSund -> RE: Grand Theft Auto 4 is complete smut (5/10/2008 1:44:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SoldierInGodsArmy

I understand that you don't go commit crimes after playing these games, but some may. Here are a few links that talk about the effects that video games have on you.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn8449-violent-video-games-alter-brains-response-to-violence.html

http://culturalpolicy.uchicago.edu/conf2001/papers/goldstein.html

Not only that but a while ago I read an article about a boy who shot two police officers and after being caught exclaimed,"Life is like a video game." I apologize for not finding a link, it was somewhere at CNN.com




The evidence that there is no causal relationship between violent games and real violence is much more substantial. This recent book explored that issue and shows how complex it is:

quote:

If one conclusion is possible, it is that the jury is not still out. It's never been in. Media violence has been subjected to lynch mob mentality with almost any evidence used to prove guilt.


I can understand a moral opposition to the game, but saying it causes violence is a stretch.



SoldierInGodsArmy -> RE: Grand Theft Auto 4 is complete smut (5/10/2008 3:24:34 PM)

quote:


I disagree that doing something the world also happens to do is inherently conforming. The world happens to use Axe body wash, and so do I.

As for the game, when I was a kid, I used to play army and cowboys & Indians. We would "kill" each other all morning and then go have lunch. We had our thumbs and forefingers in the shape of guns running around yelling "bang bang". That seems very much like what you're describing, and I have no problem with kids playing games like that.


Lets make the comparison more better for this argument. Instead of Cowboys and Indians, say you were playing criminals and defenseless civilains. Where you acted out killing defenseless civilians as a way of entertaining yourself. Do you think this is ok?

Lets use a more extreme example. What if you pretended to rape and pillage a town. According to your logic this is ok as long as you aren't really actually doing it.


quote:

ORIGINAL: earthless

I just spent an hour watching Tom & Jerry with my son - I guess I am not a Christian because they spent the whole hour trying to kill each other.


You really seem to miss the point. When your playing a video game you are simulating this violence, YOU are actually the one killing. In Tom and Jerry you are simply watching.

quote:

I then spent 30 minutes watching He-Man with him - I guess I am REALLY not a Christian

I really am not trying say you're not a Christian because you play this video game, I am simply saying that the game is immoral.



earthless -> RE: Grand Theft Auto 4 is complete smut (5/10/2008 7:49:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: YSM

At the very least, violent videogames should be discouraged, ridiculed, et cetera, and not welcomed with open arms and defended with irrelevant arguments such as: "IT'S JUST A VIDEOGAME!" and "IT'S JUST A FORM OF ENTERTAINMENT!" The GTA series, among other videogames of its type, capitalize on and feed (and in some cases, encourage) mankind's evil and animalistic tendencies. That's a fact. When that's considered, it's really no wonder why games like GTA are so popular and "fun" (although, I personally don't consider games like GTA fun).



This would, of course, also include any and all books, movies, plays, etc.. that is more than 'G' rated?

quote:

ORIGINAL: YSM



Based off of what law? We do not live in a theocracy, you cannot force your belief system on the free market.

quote:

ORIGINAL: YSM


I take it you had never met a police officer, an author, a teacher, a husband, a father, or a pastor who was wrong before?


The point is that many gamers are adults and do not fit the stereotype that perhaps you and many other people do possess about those who enjoy video games as a form of entertainment.

quote:

ORIGINAL: YSM

Kill and rape those whores, son! Lol.


Why would a minor be playing an adult rated game? Oh wait, you do know that 90% of all games out there are not M rated right?

quote:

ORIGINAL: YSM

You must have been some pastor.

EDIT: RAPE and KILL those whores, not kill and rape. Yuck.


That is a TOS (Terms of Service) violation.



earthless -> RE: Grand Theft Auto 4 is complete smut (5/10/2008 7:52:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: McFatty

The few times I've played the GTA games, I've never seen the prostitute thing happen,


It only happens if you seek it out, just like real life. I have played all of the GTA series and never once had a prostitute via the way the game allows.

But all of this coming from people who have probably never even touched a controller. Yet, I know the irony and hypocrisy is there because it's simply another form of fiction and role-playing. I respect those who are against these games when they are also against ANY and ALL forms of ANYTHING above a 'G' rating.

But that is rarely the case.



earthless -> RE: Grand Theft Auto 4 is complete smut (5/10/2008 7:54:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SoldierInGodsArmy

You really seem to miss the point. When your playing a video game you are simulating this violence, YOU are actually the one killing. In Tom and Jerry you are simply watching.


Isn't that just as sinful?

quote:

ORIGINAL: SoldierInGodsArmy

I really am not trying say you're not a Christian because you play this video game, I am simply saying that the game is immoral.


A lot of aspects of my job are immoral. I am currently working with our child sex abuse/pedophille unit - where we view the utter downright gore and filth many adults do towards infants and children.

Does that mean no Christians should ever be cops, judges, attorneys, teachers, etc?



jpapaj -> RE: Grand Theft Auto 4 is complete smut (5/10/2008 10:15:48 PM)

I will set before my eyes
no vile thing. Psalm 101:3

So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 1 Cor 10:31



earthless -> RE: Grand Theft Auto 4 is complete smut (5/10/2008 11:08:57 PM)

jpa - so no Christian police officers or judges, etc?



HisFish -> RE: Grand Theft Auto 4 is complete smut (5/10/2008 11:30:51 PM)

People who play games that glorify prostitution, murder, violence and all that rot need to repent and beg the Lords forgiveness. Do you really believe that He is ok with his people giving themselves over to such "entertainment". Do you really think He approves of the " It's ok to pretend to sin as long as i dont do it for real" arguement. Where in America does the world end and the church begin, where is the seperation?. We play the games, watch the movies, listen to the music , attend the festivals and generally feed from the same trough that the world feeds from and we still insist we follow Christ. That those who are rightly appalled by the crime that is shown on the nightly news would be the same to simulate it on the platform of their choice baffles me.[:(]



HisFish -> RE: Grand Theft Auto 4 is complete smut (5/11/2008 12:19:56 AM)

going from this
quote:

ORIGINAL: jpapaj

I will set before my eyes
no vile thing. Psalm 101:3

So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 1 Cor 10:31


to this
quote:

jpa - so no Christian police officers or judges, etc?


Is a non sequitur. Wanting to glorify God in all you do, and avoiding vile things as a habit, is not to say there should be no christian cops or judges. Im quite sure a cop or a judge can perform their duties to the glory of God, and the psalm dosent mean you cant look upon anything vile, especially if you are there to confront it. It does mean that you should not hold it as an object of affection.



lightshineon -> RE: Grand Theft Auto 4 is complete smut (5/11/2008 12:48:23 AM)

earthless is a Godly man, not my game for my kids or household, but earthless has to work out his own salvation, as I do. He is a good man though, from what I have seen.



McFatty -> RE: Grand Theft Auto 4 is complete smut (5/11/2008 4:44:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HisFish

People who play games that glorify prostitution, murder, violence and all that rot need to repent and beg the Lords forgiveness. Do you really believe that He is ok with his people giving themselves over to such "entertainment". Do you really think He approves of the " It's ok to pretend to sin as long as i dont do it for real" arguement. Where in America does the world end and the church begin, where is the seperation?. We play the games, watch the movies, listen to the music , attend the festivals and generally feed from the same trough that the world feeds from and we still insist we follow Christ. That those who are rightly appalled by the crime that is shown on the nightly news would be the same to simulate it on the platform of their choice baffles me.[:(]



Do I think God is okay with it. Yes, I do. Do I think that God understand the difference between fiction and reality? Yes, I do. Where in America does the world end and the church begin? In the hearts and souls of the disciples of Christ. I disagree with the angle you're forwarding.



McFatty -> RE: Grand Theft Auto 4 is complete smut (5/11/2008 4:52:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SoldierInGodsArmy

quote:


I disagree that doing something the world also happens to do is inherently conforming. The world happens to use Axe body wash, and so do I.

As for the game, when I was a kid, I used to play army and cowboys & Indians. We would "kill" each other all morning and then go have lunch. We had our thumbs and forefingers in the shape of guns running around yelling "bang bang". That seems very much like what you're describing, and I have no problem with kids playing games like that.


Lets make the comparison more better for this argument. Instead of Cowboys and Indians, say you were playing criminals and defenseless civilains. Where you acted out killing defenseless civilians as a way of entertaining yourself. Do you think this is ok?

Lets use a more extreme example. What if you pretended to rape and pillage a town. According to your logic this is ok as long as you aren't really actually doing it.



In many aspects, cowboys and Indians is the exact same thing as criminals and defenseless civilians, but that's an argument for another day. The truth is, the few times I've played the GTA games, there was of course the option of killing defenseless civilians, but they weren't part of the game's storyline, so the best comparison would be playing someone who was on a mission to kill a mob boss (not a defenseless civilian), thereby actually saving defenseless civilians, if you think about it.

If you're trying to compare the gameplay in the Grand Theft Auto series to a game which is nothing but raping and pillaging, you obviously don't know much about the game, perhaps happily taking all the bad things you've heard about the game while refusing to equally listen to the good.

To answer your question, though, if someone were to be pretending such, I'd talk with them and find out why they were doing so before snapping to judgment.


quote:


I am simply saying that the game is immoral.


and I'm simply disagreeing



abraxas -> RE: Grand Theft Auto 4 is complete smut (5/11/2008 8:43:07 PM)

Maybe the makers of GTA could add a special feature where God commands the actions.



9drtr -> RE: Grand Theft Auto 4 is complete smut (5/11/2008 9:13:52 PM)

And you get struck by lightning if you run over a civilian.



tenfour -> RE: Grand Theft Auto 4 is complete smut (5/11/2008 11:31:36 PM)

I do not think games like this cause anyone to become criminals, unless the person has serious mental issues to begin with (such as confusing fantasy with reality). Several of my buddies from college and at work are fans of this series, but they are all well-adjusted, friendly, and in successful careers. I've played games like these in the past, and they in no way changed my outlook on life and what sins are acceptable. I am probably more appalled by violence in the real world than I have ever been.

But I do not think these games are spiritually healthy to engage in--I would not play something like GTA again--I regret it. This game glorifies sin.

This is different from other forms of entertainment that involve sin, because you are the one choosing for the character to sin and to see how much he can get away with for entertainment. There are many forms of entertainment out there for you to choose if you feel you need some stress relief...and most of them do not glorify sin. Even in the great majority of violent games, there is some kind of war going on and you are the good guy.


...Edit:
It is true that killing innocent civilians isn't a standard part of the game (at least in GTA 3, the one I have played). It is just something you have the ability to do but does not advance the story. However, it was impossible to advance the story without doing things like setting up a car bomb to kill someone, killing members of certain gangs, or ferrying prostitutes across the city to earn money.



Ruthie -> RE: Grand Theft Auto 4 is complete smut (5/13/2008 10:11:22 PM)

I don't have a problem with stores selling GTA4. I DO have a problem with parents buying this game for their kids. Its irresponsible. This game is for adults and it is rated M. No kid has any business playing it.

Personally, I find it violent and offensive and I wish such games did not exist but I support a person's right to play any legal game of their choice.

I am always surprised that Christians, living in exile in Babylon, keep expressing shock that Babylonians live like... well, Babylonians.

disclosure statement : love console games like Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest. Have never played any GTA game and never will.



everythingat -> RE: Grand Theft Auto 4 is complete smut (5/13/2008 10:42:03 PM)

When you watch movies/television or read books, you are living vicariously through the characters. Which is why you get emotionally involved.

I don't think the game is necessarily glorifying these sins, it's presenting an exaggerated view of a specific lifestyle that some criminals lead.



Rufas2000 -> RE: Grand Theft Auto 4 is complete smut (5/13/2008 10:42:25 PM)

Count me in with its the parents choice based on how they feel their kids will handle it. Adults have the freedom of choice. I personally am not a fan based on what I have heard (and that is what the following comments are based on). Nor would I be a fan of any movie or TV show where the protagonist went on a crime spree. Unless it was tongue in cheek or the protagonist was supposed to be a bad guy. I'm not a fan of gloryifying criminal behavior.

I'm definitely not for censoring this game but I find it intersting that Walmart sells it but will not sell CDs with parental advisories. Point is don't buy the hype that Walmart is a family friendly company. They'll happily play the family card when its a CD and most buyers will purchase the clean version (I personally will never knowingly do that) but no censored GTA4 available to sell , lots of money to be made, look whats in stock at Walmart.

But I digress.



lightshineon -> RE: Grand Theft Auto 4 is complete smut (5/13/2008 11:19:57 PM)

Yeah, rufas it is cheering the bad guy to win, That is the difference evil is good in GTA. Kind of like cheering satan to win and glorifying it. Nothing said in my comment about my friends who play it, just the dynamics of the game.



rlj -> RE: Grand Theft Auto 4 is complete smut (5/14/2008 8:58:02 AM)

quote:

It's called fiction, and there's absolutely no difference, in my mind and in my heart, between playing a fictional video game and reading a fictional book containing the same content, or watching a fictional movie. Have you ever watched one of those disgusting movies?


None of the above here since I read no books that have such content nor do I watch movies that have such content. My wife occasionally gets movies that I won't watch. Some violence nothing on the level like GTA 3 which I have seen but haven't messed with 4. That is my choice though and as Lightshineon pointed out it's how I work out my salvation. I'm dissappointed that some christians like this kind of thing but it's not really my choice it is theirs and their conscience.

quote:

The few times I've played the GTA games, I've never seen the prostitute thing happen, so I don't know about all that.


It's a mod. All of that stuff concerned mods even though it was "locked" in the game it still needed a third party mod to unlock. You can use the mod or not use the mod it is up to the choice of the user. Should the use of mods be taken into consideration for rating games any game with any kind of fan oriented contributions would be forced to get a M or AO. Sims, Sims 2, Morrowind, NWN, NWN 2, Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, Icewind Dale 1 and 2 off the top of my head have mods or fan created stuff that could up the ratings to either M or perhaps an AO. The ironic thing was I'm not even sure if you could access that content on the console versions only on the PC and didn't all of them get pulled?

What would be better for the ratings would be to give the game a rating with a note that says "This game is rated *T* but game experience may change based on additional unofficial software downloaded" similiar to what my WoW box says except it is because of the Online community that the rating can change. Make it obvious if the game can be modded that the rating could go higher. The Unofficial is to prevent game makers from sending a game to the ratings board, getting a rating, then intentionally "patching in" content that makes it worse to avoid the ratings. If the community chooses to mod it to do this it is a different thing entirely.

quote:

I just spent an hour watching Tom & Jerry with my son - I guess I am not a Christian because they spent the whole hour trying to kill each other.

That's ok as long as they were the censored episodes that took out the smoking. (I am joking about that, I thought the T+J censoring was absurd)

quote:

This would, of course, also include any and all books, movies, plays, etc.. that is more than 'G' rated?


Anyone can go to IMDB and probably list 100 PG movies easily that don't have content anywhere close to GTA 3 or 4. How do you arrive at comparing PG movies to M or AO games? The rating isn't as relevant as the content. A movie like Saving Private Ryan or Mississippi Burning which attempt to capture things that happened at a certain place in time and have at least some historical value are a different breed then a movie like Porky's or Hot Dog or even a game like GTA 4. One movie I would love to see an edited version of is the Downfall.

So call me a gimp Froot Loop for watching Spaceballs and not playing or wanting to play GTA 4. :P



earthless -> RE: Grand Theft Auto 4 is complete smut (5/14/2008 9:05:05 AM)

This is definitely where we part ways - because I do not believe in censoring. Life is gritty, hard, ugly, and nasty - it is not all suburbia Wal-Mart utopia where everyone is a certain color/ethnicity and everything is white picket fence and 2.5 kids.

I was born and raised in the ghetto/inner-city and am a cop in the same inner-city/ghetto. Worked several years as a deputy in a max jail, the largest single site facility in the U.S./used to be world, and have seen and been involved in things which would make most Ned Flander type Christians literally keel over.

I have no problem being in a group that is sarcastic, cursing, vulgar, etc.. it is what sin is and the reality is those are the people in need of Jesus.

I rather be in a room with those kind of people than a room full of self-professing Christians that are hypocrites and Word of Faith fanatics LIKE THIS that give Christianity a bad name.

*end rant......



Tinkerbell_ -> RE: Grand Theft Auto 4 is complete smut (5/14/2008 9:39:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthless

This is definitely where we part ways - because I do not believe in censoring. Life is gritty, hard, ugly, and nasty - it is not all suburbia Wal-Mart utopia where everyone is a certain color/ethnicity and everything is white picket fence and 2.5 kids.

I was born and raised in the ghetto/inner-city and am a cop in the same inner-city/ghetto. Worked several years as a deputy in a max jail, the largest single site facility in the U.S./used to be world, and have seen and been involved in things which would make most Ned Flander type Christians literally keel over.

I have no problem being in a group that is sarcastic, cursing, vulgar, etc.. it is what sin is and the reality is those are the people in need of Jesus.

I rather be in a room with those kind of people than a room full of self-professing Christians that are hypocrites and Word of Faith fanatics LIKE THIS that give Christianity a bad name.

*end rant......

I can't see the link, but I agree with everything you said here (go figure). [8|]

It reminds me of that woman who wanted to ban Harry Potter books "for the sake of our children". Our children or your children? Don't tell me how to raise my children and if I find GTA 4 or Harry Potter are "okay" for my kids, then I have the right to let them watch it. I took Thing 2 to see 300 while it was still in the theatres and the gasps of horror I heard...well...it was quite comical. Oh! And the crux of that woman was that she had never read the books! How can you advocate banning something you have no clue what it's about!? Oy!

While I have not played GTA, I have been in a room where it was played and don't find it appropriate for my children. Everyone is different. That's what makes this world go round and if you (generalisation of course) continue to sensor every single form of entertainment that we have, soon we'll be living in a world resembling A Wrinkle in Time. *shudders*



lightshineon -> RE: Grand Theft Auto 4 is complete smut (5/14/2008 10:18:43 AM)

Who talked about something like book burning? I said not right for me, and we should work out our own salvation.



earthless -> RE: Grand Theft Auto 4 is complete smut (5/14/2008 10:25:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lightshineon

Who talked about something like book burning?


The OP said the game should be burned, I asked if books and other items that did not pass their own morality test would also be included. Seems like the logical step in their train of thought.



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