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reuvenbinyamin -> RE: The Creator is awaking Up the World (7/15/2008 3:41:15 AM)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dragonnie
quote:
ORIGINAL: reuvenbinyamin
Have you read Romans?
ROMANS
1 Do the Jews then have any advantage over the Gentiles? Or is there any value in being circumcised?
2 Much, indeed, in every way! In the first place, YHVH trusted his message to the Jews.
3 But what if some of them were not faithful? Does this mean that YHVH will not be faithful?
4 Certainly not!
Dear friend, that is not saying that G d will be faithful to unfaithfulness, ever! It says Faith G d's way, not "His faithfulness to disobedient Jews".
Rom3:1 What advantage then hath the [believing] Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
It means faith in him still is effectual, even though the Jews disbelieve.
G d puts no difference ever between Jews and Gentiles:
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Rom 11:23 And they (Jews) also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
quote:
Romans
25 There is a secret truth, my friends, which I want you to know, for it will keep you from thinking how wise you are.
It is that the stubbornness of the people of Israel is not permanent, but will last only until the complete number of Gentiles comes to YHVH.
26 And this is how all Israel will be saved. As the scripture says, "The Savior will come from Zion and remove all wickedness from the descendants of Jacob.
27 I will make this covenant with them when I take away their sins."
That is talking about some Jews, a "remnant":
Romans11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Here is your quote, but "this mystery" means the grafting in of Gentiles.
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
This is the mystery, the grafting in of the Gentiles:
Eph 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
"All Israel shall be saved" (Rom 11:26) means the number of believing Jews and Gentiles together:
Rom9:6...For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
If G d were to save all Jews but not all Gentiles, that would make Him a respecter of persons, which scripture says He is not.
Hello there, You seem to bring a lot of baggage and inserts statements into the text that the text itself does not contain or imply or even support.
I'll try to insert my own comments between the lines [with black text in square brackets].
Dear friend, that is not saying that G d will be faithful to unfaithfulness, ever! It says Faith G d's way, not "His faithfulness to disobedient Jews".
MY REPLY:SNIP----------------------------------
[Dear friend, G-d has always been faithful to His purposes, to His promises, to His people, and to His Torah, despite frequent human faithlessness, disobedience, disloyalty, and even outright rebellion, regardless of whether these humans were disobedient Jews or disobedient non-Jews. It is in His intrinsic character to be faithful, and that characteristic is not dependent upon human responses.]
Rom3:1 What advantage then hath the [believing] Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
It means faith in him still is effectual, even though the Jews disbelieve.
MY REPLY:SNIP----------------------------------
[The insertion of the qualifier “believing” into verse 1 is an outrageous distortion of the clear purpose and intent of Rav Shaul, as he identified the distinctive people to whom G-d entrusted His “oracles” (i.e., the revelations of Torah and prophecy). Indeed, the very purpose of many of those revelations was to transform the recipients from a state of disbelief or disobedience to one of repentance and obedience. They were not entrusted merely into the hands of prophets or priests who did trust and were faithful, but rather they were entrusted to be delivered to the entire people and incorporated into the very fabric of their culture and civilization. As such, no mere lack of faith can render them ineffectual, because the blessings of this heritage were preserved throughout even our most dysfunctional periods. Of course, their effectiveness is much greater whenever humans actually cooperate with G-d to achieve His purposes. It can be said of the American standard of living and political heritage that they are clearly superior to anything to be found in various tribal cultures (just to emphasize an unequivocal contrast), but many who are born into the American environment fail to appreciate the blessings they have received. They have inherited these blessings regardless of any personal action or faith, and they continue to benefit even if they denigrate their heritage or refuse to support it. Similarly, the Jewish people preserved and inherited a culture that is superior to that of any other people in its embodiment of blessings and knowledge entrusted to them directly by the one true G-d. Some Jews, likewise, fail to appreciate or understand the fullness of the blessings and knowledge they have inherited, yet still they benefit from them. That which was entrusted to the Jewish people is still very much effective, illustrating perhaps G-d’s faithfulness even more than that of the dedicated Jewish remnant that He has preserved.]
G d puts no difference ever between Jews and Gentiles:
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
MY REPLY:SNIP----------------------------------
[Let us be very clear that G-d has always historically made a distinction between Jews and non-Jews, and this will continue at least as long as the Torah continues in effect, which Rav Yeshua emphasized (in Matt.5:17) would be as long as the heavens and the earth continue to exist. This distinction, however, does not change the ultimate results outlined in Rom.2:9-12, even as the distinction itself is emphasized. Similarly, in Rom.10:12, it is only from the perspective of ultimate results that the distinction ceases to be a difference. Both Jews and Gentiles are responsible to stand before G-d as their King, both will be judged for doing evil, and both can equally repent and call upon Him and be redeemed and be richly blessed. This does not diminish in any degree the differences between them, as demonstrated in passages like Acts 21:24&25, where a distinction is shown between the expectations on Rav Shaul as a Torah-observant Jew and the diminished expectations applied to Gentiles, or in Gal.5:3 where Rav Shaul is discouraging some misinformed Galatian Gentiles from becoming circumcised because they would unnecessarily take on an obligation to obey the entire Torah (just like Jews).]
Rom 11:23 And they (Jews) also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
quote:
Romans 11
25 There is a secret truth, my friends, which I want you to know, for it will keep you from thinking how wise you are.
It is that the stubbornness of the people of Israel is not permanent, but will last only until the complete number of Gentiles comes to YHVH.
26 And this is how all Israel will be saved. As the scripture says, "The Savior will come from Zion and remove all wickedness from the descendants of Jacob.
27 I will make this covenant with them when I take away their sins."
That is talking about some Jews, a "remnant":
MY REPLY:SNIP----------------------------------
[Well, that is a possible interpretation, but it is not exactly what the text itself says. It does define, at least, a method by which the “descendents of Jacob” will be rescued, however many that may be. But it does not specifically limit how many will be included, and it could actually mean “all” (i.e., 100%) of Israel. And some might suggest that this could even include those members of the house of Israel who have previously died and have been resurrected on the Day of Judgment, because at any given time in history there is only a “remnant” alive that has been graciously preserved from the persecutions and judgments that have continually afflicted the Jewish people.]
Romans11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Here is your quote, but "this mystery" means the grafting in of Gentiles.
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
This is the mystery, the grafting in of the Gentiles:
Eph 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
"All Israel shall be saved" (Rom 11:26) means the number of believing Jews and Gentiles together:
MY REPLY:SNIP----------------------------------
[No, that is not what it means. Gentiles who come to share in Israel’s heritage are co-inheritors WITH Israel, as “partakers” (i.e., participants), but they do not become “sons of Jacob” (i.e., “sons of Israel”). They are described in Gal.3:29 as metaphorical “sons of Abraham”, but this description does not imply that they become even “sons of Isaac” (let alone “sons of Jacob”).]
Rom.9:6...For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
MY REPLY:SNIP----------------------------------
[Rom.9:6-8 outlines a view that not even all physical descendents of Israel really should be counted as such (in the metaphorical sense), because they do not demonstrate the key characteristics of Abraham’s trust in HaShem’s promise. But Rav Shaul’s use of metaphor to emphasize something of key importance does not contradict the fundamental meaning of Israel in the Torah and in the prophetic writings. Rav Shaul was utilizing a Midrashic interpretive technique to extract a hidden implication out of the Scriptures, to extend aspects of the covenantal promises given to Israel also to non-Jews who align themselves with Israel (i.e., those who are “grafted in” to share in the covenantal promises).]
If G d were to save all Jews but not all Gentiles, that would make Him a respecter of persons, which scripture says He is not.
MY REPLY:SNIP----------------------------------
[That is not what it means to “respect persons”. Even if Rom.11:26 were found to be literally true that 100% the “sons of Jacob” were rescued, it would be in respect of a promise rather than respect of persons. Somebody sounds to me as if they are a bit jealous, and unwilling to allow such a possibility. But there is really no cause for concern, because, as Rav Shaul observed to Timothy (1Tim.2:3-6), G-d wants everyone to be saved and to acknowledge the truth that G-d is One and that His self-sacrificing human mediator has accomplished redemption for all who will acknowledge this truth and live accordingly.
There is a faulty Christian tendency toward universalism, applying everything to everyone without regard to the particularistic distinctions that may be found throughout the Scriptures. HaShem created two distinct genders of humans, and there are some tasks that can only be performed by males, and other tasks that can only be performed by females (particularly with respect to preserving the species in obedience to the first commandment to “be fruitful and multiply, replenishing the earth”). He separated out the family of Abraham from all others, and particularly designated the tasks of rulership and priesthood to the tribes of Judah and Levi, respectively. He further divided the tasks of maintaining the sanctuary among the families of Levi, in which only the sons of Aaron were permitted to offer the sacrifices as Cohenim. And only one man could be assigned the position of High Priest to officiate on the Day of Atonement. The metaphorical description of the people of Israel as a nation of kings and priests does not imply that all of them were eligible to perform the actual physical tasks. Now, each of these roles and tasks can be associated metaphorically with spiritual principles that may be incorporated into the personal outlook and actions of any given individual or an entire community of them. But we must recognize also the distinction between a metaphorical application and the physical reality upon which it is based and from which it draws its meaning. If we fail to maintain such distinctions, and confuse a metaphor with its source, we will lose the fundamental examples that were given by HaShem to provide understanding. Let each of us recognize the distinctions and assignments that G-d has established, and endeavor to walk in a manner worthy of our individual calling, without jealousy or envy toward another whose assignment differs from our own. (Refer also to some similar advice in Eph.4.) And with all due respect, time does not permit me for such debates.]
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