RE: #18 on the way (Full Version)

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Leslie_JnJs_mom -> RE: #18 on the way (5/10/2008 11:08:39 AM)

How on earth does she get that many kids to behave themselves? I have one that I chase around when we are out and about.



stateofgrace -> RE: #18 on the way (5/10/2008 11:11:16 AM)

Isn't the "jurisdiction" stuff from Bill Gothard? It's very gender-stereotyped (girls cook, boys do yardwork). It's not like they'd switch it up permanently, because the Duggar parents really believe in stereotypical gender roles. It's unlikely any boy in that family would become a chef, for example.

I don't think it's surprising at all that Mrs. Duggar is pregnant again, She and her husband have repeatedly said they will have as many children as God gives them - basically, as many as they can before she hits menopause, her body gives out, or her "womb is closed" by some other medical reason. And she's only 41. There could be 3 or 4 more children before they're done.



Jenny-Fair -> RE: #18 on the way (5/10/2008 11:12:57 AM)

I knew a gal who had a baby when she was 54, with no medical intervention. So she could have a dozen more[;)]



Sideways -> RE: #18 on the way (5/10/2008 11:54:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stateofgrace

Isn't the "jurisdiction" stuff from Bill Gothard? It's very gender-stereotyped (girls cook, boys do yardwork). It's not like they'd switch it up permanently, because the Duggar parents really believe in stereotypical gender roles. It's unlikely any boy in that family would become a chef, for example.


I believe they are Gothardites.

And as for the kids behaving themselves, I'd think you'd have to crack down with some strong discipline to avoid complete chaos. I know they do blanket training for the littles.

Also, each little one has a "buddy" who looks after him/her, gets them cleaned, dressed, puts them down for naps, makes sure they have food, etc. Basically does a lot of the grunt parenting work.



PrincessDonna -> RE: #18 on the way (5/10/2008 12:06:33 PM)

quote:

And as for the kids behaving themselves, I'd think you'd have to crack down with some strong discipline to avoid complete chaos.


As do many parents with much smaller families...we try to train ours early. Saves a lot of time and energy in the long run, though disciplining is an ongoing process too, even as it is for adults.

quote:

Also, each little one has a "buddy" who looks after him/her, gets them cleaned, dressed, puts them down for naps, makes sure they have food, etc. Basically does a lot of the grunt parenting work.


Again, as do many parents with much smaller families. When you have more kids than you have hands, you need help. When older siblings are ready and able to help, it makes more time for everyone to have fun together!



stateofgrace -> RE: #18 on the way (5/10/2008 2:21:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leslie35

How on earth does she get that many kids to behave themselves? I have one that I chase around when we are out and about.


That one's pretty simple. The older ones have "jurisdiction" over the younger ones. Especially the older girls.



3cappuccinosmom -> RE: #18 on the way (5/10/2008 2:33:25 PM)

quote:

Again, as do many parents with much smaller families. When you have more kids than you have hands, you need help. When older siblings are ready and able to help, it makes more time for everyone to have fun together!


I agree. My boys are doign "grunt work" right now. I took care of most of the house but at this moment they are picking up toys in their room, and then will be sweeping and mopping it.
Asrat just hollered: "Hey mom! Is this a dirty job? Like Mike Rowe? It sure is a dirty job!". [8D]

I don't have any problem with gender roles and division of labor, so I suppose that's why I'm not the least bit bothered by the way they divide up the work, especially considering that they *do* switch up so each gender can at least get a basic grasp of "non traditional" work.



Sideways -> RE: #18 on the way (5/10/2008 3:03:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
I don't have any problem with gender roles and division of labor, so I suppose that's why I'm not the least bit bothered by the way they divide up the work, especially considering that they *do* switch up so each gender can at least get a basic grasp of "non traditional" work.


I do, only because the girls have way more work then the boys. There are fewer girls, but the females have "jurisdiction" over the inside of the house, at least when they aren't making nice for the cameras by switching jobs.

Even if you believe that males should work outside the home and bring in a paycheck, that is no excuse to give chore imbalances to minor children. If an older boy has a job, then that would be different, otherwise, all children male or female should have chores according to their age and ability.

There is no way that taking out the trash, mowing the lawn and changing a few tires equates to the endless cycle of vacuuming, laundry, dishes, cooking, dusting, sweeping, moping, etc.



PrincessDonna -> RE: #18 on the way (5/10/2008 3:22:52 PM)

I somehow doubt that the boys are allowed to leave messes for the girls though. I'm sure each child is taught to pick up after themselves, and this greatly reduces the workload for those working inside the house.



Sideways -> RE: #18 on the way (5/10/2008 3:28:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PrincessDonna
I somehow doubt that the boys are allowed to leave messes for the girls though. I'm sure each child is taught to pick up after themselves, and this greatly reduces the workload for those working inside the house.


Even if the boys put their dishes in the sink and their clothes in the hamper, do you really think 10 boys working on the outside equates to 7 girls working the inside of the house?



PrincessDonna -> RE: #18 on the way (5/10/2008 3:29:37 PM)

Aren't a bunch of the boys under 10 anyway?

ETA...Joshua, 20; Jana, 18; John-David, 18; Jill, 16; Jessa, 15; Jinger, 14; Joseph, 13; Josiah, 11; Joy-Anna, 10; Jeremiah, 9; Jedidiah, 9; Jason, 7; James, 6; Justin, 5; Jackson, 3; Johannah, 2, Jennifer, 9 months.

So assuming that the over 10 crowd are the ones doing most of the chores (probably true)...that includes 4 boys and 5 girls.

Maybe the balance of work will change when the younger boys get older.



Sideways -> RE: #18 on the way (5/10/2008 3:32:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PrincessDonna
Aren't a bunch of the boys under 10 anyway?


So are some of the girls, but the point is that the inside of the house is tremendously more work then the outside. It seems pointless to arrange chores by gender, no matter how religiously conservative you are. Children are children, they should help out equally as they are able.

ETA: I would think that inside chores are better suited for younger children anyhow. Mowing the lawn is not appropriate for a 5 year old, but a 5 year old can do lots of things inside.



zoebob -> RE: #18 on the way (5/10/2008 3:35:25 PM)

If you count the kids 10 and older there are more girls. I doubt the kids under 10 contribute as heavily to the work load as the older ones.



PrincessDonna -> RE: #18 on the way (5/10/2008 3:35:48 PM)

quote:

Children are children, they should help out equally as they are able.


I agree.

What I'm trying to say is...do we *know* that this family believes differently than that? It's all speculation...



Sideways -> RE: #18 on the way (5/10/2008 3:38:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
I agree. My boys are doign "grunt work" right now.


Actually, I said grunt work of parenting, not chores.

But I understand the necessity of assigning younger children to older children, even if it makes me a little edgy. What happens when a 13 year old is assigned to give a 1 year old a bath? Could have the makings for disaster, but I'm sure they are well trained.



zoebob -> RE: #18 on the way (5/10/2008 3:40:49 PM)

I also expect that the older ones deal with the real little ones. I also think I remember that Mom does most of the care on the babies.



Sideways -> RE: #18 on the way (5/10/2008 3:43:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PrincessDonna
What I'm trying to say is...do we *know* that this family believes differently than that? It's all speculation...


quote:

"The girls swapped jurisdictions, changing tires, working in the garages, mowing the grass," she said. "The boys got to cook supper from start to finish, clean the bathrooms," among other chores.


This is from the article. Boys normally work outside, girls work inside.

And like I said, if there are more boys under 10, then it would seem better/safer to put them to work inside anyhow.

But I don't really see where this is getting us anywhere. Bottom line, the boys have it good.



Sideways -> RE: #18 on the way (5/10/2008 3:46:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zoebob
I also expect that the older ones deal with the real little ones. I also think I remember that Mom does most of the care on the babies.


You're probably right. And I do believe Mom handles the babies at least until six months; I don't know exactly when the formal buddy system comes into effect.



PrincessDonna -> RE: #18 on the way (5/10/2008 3:49:27 PM)

Ruth, as far as I'm concerned...it's an article. Media often portrays things they way they want them portrayed. I'm sure none of us know how the actual division of labor works. Who knows...Jim Bob might find himself elbow deep in soapy water every now and again.[;)]

To me, I just hate to nit-pick this family, even though I know they have put themselves out there for people to see. Unless we live in their home or are very, very close to them, we just can't know. I sure would love to be a fly on the wall though (when cameras aren't rolling!)...bet I could pick up some awesome home management tips![:D]



Consecrated2God -> RE: #18 on the way (5/10/2008 4:10:55 PM)

quote:

So are some of the girls, but the point is that the inside of the house is tremendously more work then the outside.


Now I would agree with you, but my husband thinks differently. For some strange reason he thinks the lawn is really important, and is always trying to get help picking up toys, etc. outside. I think it's much more important to get the dishes and laundry done. [8D]

Seriously, though, I think the amount of yardwork would largely depend on the size of the lawn. We have a big yard, and so it takes my husband quite a lot of time each week to keep it mowed.



zoebob -> RE: #18 on the way (5/10/2008 4:15:06 PM)

It may take more time but I would much much rather spend 5 hrs doing inside jobs than 30 mins doing most outside jobs. I hate mowing lawns, digging in the dirt, chopping wood, etc....anything that makes me hot sweaty and dirty. Would much rather do dishes, laundry, clean bathrooms, and cook.



stateofgrace -> RE: #18 on the way (5/10/2008 5:21:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PrincessDonna

Ruth, as far as I'm concerned...it's an article. Media often portrays things they way they want them portrayed. I'm sure none of us know how the actual division of labor works. Who knows...Jim Bob might find himself elbow deep in soapy water every now and again.[;)]

To me, I just hate to nit-pick this family, even though I know they have put themselves out there for people to see. Unless we live in their home or are very, very close to them, we just can't know. I sure would love to be a fly on the wall though (when cameras aren't rolling!)...bet I could pick up some awesome home management tips![:D]


Donna, we can know what the Duggar parents have said themselves in interviews. We can know what is said and what is portrayed on their show week after week.

It is known (for those who bother to dig that information up) that they are followers of Bill Gothard. While Gothard and his organizations attempt to keep quiet a lot of what they teach, a lot of it has come out over the years from people who have attended his seminars and/or been involved with his homeschooling program (which is not just teaching materials, but more like a lifestyle). Based on what is known about Gothard's teachings, it's pretty clear from what is seen on the program that the Duggars don't follow it halfway. And...you really can't follow it halfway, anyhow, once you commit to the program, because there are rules and restrictions one has to follow. The last time we all got into this discussion around here we linked to the ATI program application which spells a lot of this out.

I remember seeing a show last year where the Duggars went to the annual ATI homeschooling convention. It was not mentioned by name. I wonder why that was the case?

I do have serious qualms about a woman believng that it's God's desire/plan for her to have 18, 20 or more babies till her body finally wears out. But that is a personal opinion. What she is doing is not illegal or immoral.

The Gothard stuff is reprehensible to me in many ways (I feel very sorry for girls who are pushed into a very rigid gender stereotype that devalues education for them), but it is also not immoral or illegal. I am concerned about kids that are raised in this manner, but legalistic parents aren't necessarily abusive.

And at least swapping the "jurisdictions" for a day might give the boys a new appreciation for all the girls' hard work.



ddsisson -> RE: #18 on the way (5/10/2008 5:43:03 PM)

We have a nephew and his wife that plan on having 20. Right now they have 4, all 5 and under. It is my DH's brother's eldest son. They too just started HSing and I do believe that they us Gothard's program.



3cappuccinosmom -> RE: #18 on the way (5/10/2008 7:08:14 PM)

quote:

I do have serious qualms about a woman believng that it's God's desire/plan for her to have 18, 20 or more babies till her body finally wears out.


Why? Biblical basis?
If her uterus gets tired, it's because it's being doing what it was *meant* to do. I don't see that it's any more "God's will" for uteri to sit unused and pristine for 30 years. It's there for a purpose. The purpose is carrying babies (and to pooch our bellies out a little, I suppose. round is good [8D]). That's what she's using it for. [;)] Her body will go on long after her uterus is finished.

As for the girls and boys thing--sure, some days I feel like the housework is never done, but here I am at the computer while my husband is refurbishing a house. Some days he has it good, some days I have it good. It evens out.
But I think there are some people who just can't fathom anybody being happy this way. And of course, if they do "switch out" chores, with boys helping inside, it must be making a show for the TV because religious nutters like them don't produce men who care about women, or help around the house, right? I know, I know, it's just not possible.
On another secular board people were speculating that the Duggar's marriage obviously has no romance because they're "fundies". Because nobody who has 18 children could *possibly* be in love with their spouse and actually enjoy a romantic relationship, you know. [&:]

But just because one can't wrap one's mind around a concept doesn't mean it's something bad.[;)]



Sideways -> RE: #18 on the way (5/10/2008 7:20:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
But I think there are some people who just can't fathom anybody being happy this way.

But just because one can't wrap one's mind around a concept doesn't mean it's something bad.


We don't think they're bad people Maggie. And I'm sure they are happy; they seem like they are.

But I still think the workload is unevenly distributed amoungst the minor children. Your husband works his regular job, then has a side business in real estate. He obviously has a very full plate.

These boys have the same school work the girls do, but far fewer chores. There's not really a comparison between the them and the division of labor between you and your husband.

And for whoever said they would prefer 5 hours indoors to 1/2 hour outside, oh I don't feel that way. Mowing the lawn is great exercise, and sunshine does wonders for my mood. I love working outside.



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