RE: #18 on the way (Full Version)

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BlessedMamaofmany -> RE: #18 on the way (5/16/2008 7:10:55 PM)

right...and an infertile couple who still fits the 'definition' of QF (ie. allowing God complete control over the size of your family...small or large) would still count methinks
Sandy



Consecrated2God -> RE: #18 on the way (5/16/2008 7:41:11 PM)

I think we tend to not notice the small families that don't use birth control. We had some friends that only had two, a boy and a girl, and it just seemed that they planned it that way. They didn't really talk about it or anything, but the mother told me that they never had used birth control and they never planned on it, either.



Sideways -> RE: #18 on the way (5/16/2008 7:56:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlessedMamaofmany
right...and an infertile couple who still fits the 'definition' of QF (ie. allowing God complete control over the size of your family...small or large) would still count methinks
Sandy


Sure it counts. That's why I said it might bring the average number of kids down. Secondary infertility is a mystery to me. I mean, I know it happens plenty often, but it seems strange that everything could work ... and then not work.

You might be right Lisa, maybe there a lot of very quiet QF families who have a small number of children. I still have a gut feeling that for otherwise healthy couples, marrying relatively early in life, the number would still be fairly high. But that's just a feeling.

I wonder if there is any recorded data about the average family size in large-scale communities that do not practice birth control, like what Tammy said about the Mennonite families in her area.



BlessedMamaofmany -> RE: #18 on the way (5/16/2008 8:39:37 PM)

Didn't mean to imply that you said otherwise MamaRuth [:D] I often stick my foot in my mouth online..
I would imagine that most large scale communities that don't practice bc also don't keep those kinds of records. I would think that since it's the norm for them, they wouldn't care much about the average size of families kwim?
Sandy



Jenny-Fair -> RE: #18 on the way (5/16/2008 9:42:10 PM)

quote:

Sure it counts. That's why I said it might bring the average number of kids down. Secondary infertility is a mystery to me. I mean, I know it happens plenty often, but it seems strange that everything could work ... and then not work.

This cracks me up because that is the very point of QF...you let GOD do what He will with your reproductive systems...everyone assumes that means you will have a baby every year or two until menopause, but in actuality it can mean having no kids, having a couple and then not knowing the biological reason for not having any more, etc. How can things work and then not work? The same way they can not work and then work...like for Hannah, for instance.[;)]



pbaribeault -> RE: #18 on the way (5/16/2008 11:22:59 PM)

Also, I've observed that couples who have had trouble conceiving sometimes turn to QF philosophies after they become able to conceive (possibly because they feel a sense of wonder at the blessing of childbearing, having been lacking it).

I'd expect couples who are QF, with belated fertility of some kind, or QF couples who continue to have trouble conceiving, with intermittent of limited success -- those families might bring the averages down.



Jenny-Fair -> RE: #18 on the way (5/17/2008 12:05:37 AM)

That's what 'average' means, though.

I knew a gal who had had several miscarriages. She had a tilted uterus and had surgery to repair it. After that, she could not conceive. She went on fertility drugs and eventually had a baby. About a year later, she was pregnant again, and called to tell her doctor so. His response? "That's impossible! I haven't started treating you yet!" [8|]

She only ever had the two kids, I believe. One conceived after years of difficulties...the other a surprise. The doctor thought he was in charge. Those of us who are QF disagree.[;)]



clag4christ -> RE: #18 on the way (5/17/2008 12:45:25 AM)

quote:

I mean, I know it happens plenty often, but it seems strange that everything could work ... and then not work.


Maybe because it's not just 'bodies in motion' (literally) or sheer biology but rather it's God deciding on when to open and close the womb in His good timing *every time*.

quote:

Also, I've observed that couples who have had trouble conceiving sometimes turn to QF philosophies after they become able to conceive (possibly because they feel a sense of wonder at the blessing of childbearing, having been lacking it).


We were from the very beginning of our marriage pretty anti-bc (for me anyway)...and we I would say now had some QF leanings...but your observation would describe us pretty accurately [:)]...



3cappuccinosmom -> RE: #18 on the way (5/17/2008 6:39:14 AM)

quote:

Maybe because it's not just 'bodies in motion' (literally) or sheer biology but rather it's God deciding on when to open and close the womb in His good timing *every time*.


Amen. If it were just biology there would be no mystery. [:D]



Sideways -> RE: #18 on the way (5/17/2008 9:37:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: clag4christ
Maybe because it's not just 'bodies in motion' (literally) or sheer biology but rather it's God deciding on when to open and close the womb in His good timing *every time*.


Pregnancy and conception were wonderfully designed by our Lord, and our souls are a gift from him, but I don't believe that God is deciding to open and close the womb every single time. I see no Biblical support for that. Sure, he can do it, and has done it sometimes, but that does not translate into every time.

Our souls are a mystery, but pregnancy is not so much anymore. We know why it happens, how it happens and what can be done to prevent it. It is a biological process, pure and simple. Now, God in His wisdom knows every child who will ever be born, and has a plan for the life of that child, but we still have a great deal of control over family size. God is not just reaching down from on high to every woman to allow or not allow her to become pregnant.

Kim, don't you take drugs to correct a medical condition to allow yourself to bear children? If I'm wrong, then I am truely sorry. Doesn't that sort of scenario mean that God needs help to open your womb?

I believe God can give infertile couples the strength and grace to endure their hardship, but I don't believe He is deliberately withholding children from them in most cases.

If a teenage girl has sex, then she may become pregnant. I don't believe that it is God's will for her to have a baby at 15, but that He allows her to experience the consequences of her actions, and in fertile couples, babies are a potential consequence of sex - not every time certainly, but often enough.



clag4christ -> RE: #18 on the way (5/17/2008 11:59:20 AM)

quote:

Pregnancy and conception were wonderfully designed by our Lord, and our souls are a gift from him, but I don't believe that God is deciding to open and close the womb every single time. I see no Biblical support for that. Sure, he can do it, and has done it sometimes, but that does not translate into every time.

Our souls are a mystery, but pregnancy is not so much anymore. We know why it happens, how it happens and what can be done to prevent it. It is a biological process, pure and simple. Now, God in His wisdom knows every child who will ever be born, and has a plan for the life of that child, but we still have a great deal of control over family size. God is not just reaching down from on high to every woman to allow or not allow her to become pregnant.


We'll have to agree to disagree...if God knits together every child in the womb and creates every person with a purpose then it's not illogical to state that he opens and closes every single womb every single time. We cannot surprise God with our actions...

quote:

Kim, don't you take drugs to correct a medical condition to allow yourself to bear children? If I'm wrong, then I am truely sorry. Doesn't that sort of scenario mean that God needs help to open your womb?


Can you explain to me how your logic here follows? I personally take a medicine to correct a metabolic problem (one of which of the many side effects makes it nearly impossible for my body to ovulate on it's own). Because the medicine I take has a secondary effect of helping my body ovulate does not mean that God 'needs' help opening my womb. That's like saying that someone with diabetes shouldn't take his/her insulin because that means that God needs help working his/her pancreas. Or someone with genetic heart disease shouldn't take his/her meds. because God is needing help making his/her heart work properly.

That is just absurd. God designs us, each and every one, perfectly. He made my body and with it came the PCOS (and when I was born Necrotizing Enterocolitis)...He didn't make a mistake. He *never* makes mistakes. I and every single person ('perfectly' made or not) is fearfully and wonderfully made.

As an aside I get the impression on these board from some that because I take a medicine that helps with my PCOS and has the side effect of allowing my body to function properly in regards my reproductive organs that I cannot and should not be QF. Or that somehow because Joel and I are QF that we're hypocrites. I find that insinuation disgusting and offensive. I weaned Jael 2 months ago and am not yet pg. If it were mere biology then we should already have our third child in my womb...right? No...God chooses when and how to open the womb...it's that simple...



Jenny-Fair -> RE: #18 on the way (5/17/2008 12:08:35 PM)

I was an unmarried, pregnant teenager...who was on birth control! My son was not an 'oops' thank you very much, he was a direct blessing from God in spite of my sin. And after we had him it was 2.5 years until we had the next...and then I was still married 13 months after that one without getting pregnant. I have no idea why...except that perhaps God knew two boys was all I could handle on my own?

I don't think people can be created without God's hand in the process. It isn't like a sperm and an egg meet and God says, 'oh my gosh, better whip up another soul for that one there! Gee, a busy deity gets no rest...'



clag4christ -> RE: #18 on the way (5/17/2008 12:22:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jenny-Fair

I was an unmarried, pregnant teenager...who was on birth control! My son was not an 'oops' thank you very much, he was a direct blessing from God in spite of my sin. And after we had him it was 2.5 years until we had the next...and then I was still married 13 months after that one without getting pregnant. I have no idea why...except that perhaps God knew two boys was all I could handle on my own?

I don't think people can be created without God's hand in the process. It isn't like a sperm and an egg meet and God says, 'oh my gosh, better whip up another soul for that one there! Gee, a busy deity gets no rest...'



Indeed! Joel and I waited on the Lord's timing for 18 months after my body was working properly. 18 months!! If it were mere biology then I can tell you for certain that we should have been pregnant 18 times over...



3cappuccinosmom -> RE: #18 on the way (5/17/2008 12:54:25 PM)

quote:

I was an unmarried, pregnant teenager...who was on birth control! My son was not an 'oops' thank you very much, he was a direct blessing from God in spite of my sin.


A gracious redemption rather than a curse/punishment. [:)]



Sideways -> RE: #18 on the way (5/17/2008 1:16:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: clag4christ
Indeed! Joel and I waited on the Lord's timing for 18 months after my body was working properly. 18 months!! If it were mere biology then I can tell you for certain that we should have been pregnant 18 times over...


I clearly said that a baby does not result from sex each and every time. No one believes that. That's just silly. The human body simply doesn't work that way.

I was also an unplanned baby, and my parents also believed me to be a blessing. So what? It is still God's will that we not have premarital sex, and by extension not have children. God can use anything to His glory.

My heart was a wondrous design of God, that doesn't mean He is reaching down from Heaven to squeeze it together to pump blood through my body. God designed the process and set it in motion. He can intervene, but mostly it works according to God's design.

And not all of us were designed "perfectly", in fact, none of us have perfect bodies. We don't "force" God to give us a soul; He chooses to give us one out of love.

You're right. We're just going to have to agree to disagree. But just because I believe that God designed to human body to work on it's own, doesn't mean I take God out of the process.



OneOfHisJewels -> RE: #18 on the way (5/17/2008 1:25:46 PM)

Wasn't my thread about the Duggars, and their 18th child on the way? We seem to have veered way off topic.



Jenny-Fair -> RE: #18 on the way (5/17/2008 1:26:33 PM)

quote:

My heart was a wondrous design of God, that doesn't mean He is reaching down from Heaven to squeeze it together to pump blood through my body. God designed the process and set it in motion. He can intervene, but mostly it works according to God's design.

Yeah, but your heart doesn't create a soul each time it pumps, either. Moving blood and creating a human being are two totally different things, and not at all on the same plane.



3cappuccinosmom -> RE: #18 on the way (5/17/2008 1:49:59 PM)

quote:

Wasn't my thread about the Duggars, and their 18th child on the way? We seem to have veered way off topic.


You are right. Although, I do think this touches the original topic at least slightly. If all the Dugger kids weren't directly planned and given by God, that leaves open the possibility that some (or most) of them could (should, depending on who you talk to [>:]) have been prevented with no difference to eternity. There are people who think that the Duggars have done a horrendous thing, and that most of their children are little more than biological offal and should never have been born. Of course, some of the ZPG (zero population growth) folks hate their guts. [8D]



Mrs.Wifey -> RE: #18 on the way (5/17/2008 2:48:46 PM)

quote:

Of course, some of the ZPG (zero population growth) folks hate their guts.


I'm not totally buying that argument. I can name several married couples that I know who have no intent of having children. Actually, we know enough of them that it would make up for the Duggar's "extra" 16 kids[;)] Besides... Who has ever managed to have 2.3 children?[:D]



Sideways -> RE: #18 on the way (5/17/2008 3:12:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
If all the Dugger kids weren't directly planned and given by God, that leaves open the possibility that some (or most) of them could (should, depending on who you talk to [>:]) have been prevented with no difference to eternity. There are people who think that the Duggars have done a horrendous thing, and that most of their children are little more than biological offal and should never have been born.


The Duggars have not done a horrendous thing. They have followed God's call in their life by not using birth control and as a result have the children they have. What I object to is the idea that God has issued the exact same call to everyone's life.

I fail to see the connection between God directly opening and closing the womb to children not supposing to exist. The logic is truely strange.

Now, if everyone did not use birth control, then our population would be a whole lot different. One family or even a few families choosing to not use birth control makes little difference in a nation of millions.



zoebob -> RE: #18 on the way (5/17/2008 4:36:46 PM)

Moderator Note::

Please remember that this thread is about the Duggars and their 18 children. This thread is not about birth control or whether God opens and closes the womb except as it may directly relate to the Duggars.

Any further off topic posts will be deleted.

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3cappuccinosmom -> RE: #18 on the way (5/17/2008 11:13:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mrs.Wifey

quote:

Of course, some of the ZPG (zero population growth) folks hate their guts.


I'm not totally buying that argument. I can name several married couples that I know who have no intent of having children. Actually, we know enough of them that it would make up for the Duggar's "extra" 16 kids[;)] Besides... Who has ever managed to have 2.3 children?[:D]


Just to clarify, I meant the ZPG *movement*, not all individual couples who are childless by choice.



Roberta_ -> RE: #18 on the way (5/18/2008 11:40:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom

quote:

I was an unmarried, pregnant teenager...who was on birth control! My son was not an 'oops' thank you very much, he was a direct blessing from God in spite of my sin.


A gracious redemption rather than a curse/punishment. [:)]


I like that Maggie!



W.O.F. -> RE: #18 on the way (5/24/2008 7:02:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom

There are people who think that the Duggars have done a horrendous thing, and that most of their children are little more than biological offal and should never have been born. Of course, some of the ZPG (zero population growth) folks hate their guts. [8D]

I have a funny story about the ZPG group (and to clarify what someone else said..these are NOT couples that simply choose to be childless...they are an actual organization that is against population growth and believes that there should be penalties, financial and otherwise, levied against women that have more than one child...they believe it should be the women because if they merely went with couples that could mean a woman could have more than one child if she was widowed/divorced and remarried...here is their website in fact.

Anyway....we met Michael Farris, who founded HSLDA and has 10 children..they are QF. We were at his church and were speaking with him (my hubby used to work with his son in law)...he said that when he was in law school he was a very big ZPG person and in fact did a symposium on ZPG that earned him a monetary award. Then he got married to a woman who felt pretty much like he did. They concieved their first child. Before she was even born, God laid on Mrs. Farris' heart the conviction to be QF.....and then on his. They had their baby and never did anything else to prevent conception again. Nearly every year since he recieved that recognition from the ZPG....on the anniversary of the reward..he and his wife have taken the yearly cash gift and spent it on diapers or other baby supplies. He said that he has "enemies" in the ZPG movement (not really enemies but people who really really don't like him anymore)....but they (the zpg) has not been able to find a legal way to discontinue the yearly gift (which isn't a whole lot but still) because the basis for its giving was the symposium that he did then....NOT what his later life choices were.

The Duggers are a unique family...and they very carefully manage their finances and resources and truly love and care for each child.

It comes down to it isn't about how many children you have...but how well you parent.



clag4christ -> RE: #18 on the way (5/24/2008 11:36:54 AM)

quote:

It comes down to it isn't about how many children you have...but how well you parent.


Very very well said. My parents in fact had *only* two children, within their marriage, and were not prepared for the challenges of parenting. They were also pretty selfish with their time and resources so that my sister and I did a lot of co-raising of each other, from an early age...

So it's definitely not about the actual number of children a couple has...



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