Mean & Purposely-Sinning Believers (not you -- those other people) (Full Version)

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Covaan_Meshuga -> Mean & Purposely-Sinning Believers (not you -- those other people) (5/9/2008 5:26:23 PM)

I have been observing various believers for a number of years now and recent circumstances have caused me to draw a couple conclusions:
Some of us who claim to be believers are really mean people, and some of us who claim to be believers just love to deliberately sin. Some who claim to be believers are both mean and deliberately sinful.

Okay. What brought that on.

Well, my daughter and I were discussing our old church this morning before work, and we are both still amazed at how mean the people were there. By mean, I intend that both ministerial staff and congregants could be vicious with their actions and their tongues, and they actually thought that their actions and words were G-d's will -- that they were doing what they should. Acid tongues. Cruel actions. Vindictiveness.

And the other thing -- deliberately sinful believers. Where I went to church and reared my children, the people delighted in their sin, because they sincerely believed that it was not accounted to them: they didn't even see their actions as sin! Sins were just such things as murder, adultery, not going to church on Sunday, theft, working on Sunday, not going to every church service, certain lying, etc.

When I attended there, I thought that this was what everyone was like. In fact, I didn't even think much of it at all, until I left the church and learned that other believers aren't like that at all! AND it was not until I left that church that I learned that I was just like them!

Another thing that was dominant in that church was the way they so highly prized prayer. They PRAYED! Hard and loud. Often.

Since my tenure at that church, and especially during my search for a different place of worship, I have learned that other churches that are like this one, or that are highly peopled with people like this, are very fervent pray-ers in very similar ways. Skilled pray-ers.

Okay, the conclusion: based upon all the religious people and churches I have been around, I have concluded that both groups -- the mean believers and the purposely-sinning believers -- are great pray-ers! And I have wondered: is prayer used by such in order to:
1. induce or coerce G-d into mercy?
2. induce or coerce G-d into seeing them as good people in spite of their actions?
3. earn forgiveness?
4. something else?

And I am wondering: have you seen/experienced what I have seen/experienced? Whether or not you have, what are your conclusions regarding what I am bringing up?

I work for a church, and after talking to my daughter about this just this morning, I was stunned to get to work and read the pastor's handout for Sunday, part of which said:
quote:

As we understand the lavishness of the love of God toward us, we face a decision concerning the ripple effect of that love.

For it can have one of two affects on us.

We can lived a spoiled life.

Or the ripple affect of His love can move us out into the world to fulfill Jesus' mission and vision of His life.

“To seek and to save the lost.” Luke 19:10

“preach good news to the poor . . . to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed, and to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.” Luke 4:18-19

We can either live as “spoiled-rotten Christian brats,” or as “graciouos, compassionate Christ-followers”

Our encounter with the love of Jesus Christ is meant to move us out to live His grace and compassion in the world around us.


So, bottom line: what are you thinking?



deliveredarling -> RE: Mean & Purposely-Sinning Believers (not you -- those other people) (5/9/2008 5:59:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga

quote:

So, bottom line: what are you thinking?



That I can be mean sometimes. Guilty as charged. I struggle with keeping my mouth in check. I can be sarcastic and biting. My tongue is a leathal weapon that I am all to aware of. I'm better than I used to be and do a whole lot more thinking before speaking than I used to. Sometimes my tongue still bites me, when I react to something. Sometimes stuff comes out and it's very harsh without my ever intending or trying too. I hear myself praying more and more for Him to put a guard on my mouth. Maybe I need to ask for a muzzle instead[:D]

I don't know about the deliberate willful sinning. I'm sure there are things that I do, that I don't even realize are sin. I don't intentionally go around thinking that such and such is a sin and do it. I am jsut as guilty of sinning though.

I don't know about the praying thing either. i don't pray out loud in front of people if I can help it. I've never liked doing that in front of people so..... I have heard the hard and long prayers that sound more like sermons....... Hence my dislike of corporate, public prayer. Amongst close friends and family is a little different though. I'm more comfortable with that.[:D]



LCannon -> RE: Mean & Purposely-Sinning Believers (not you -- those other people) (5/9/2008 6:50:49 PM)

It's not our performance/nonperformance(thank goodness)but appropriation(claiming for oneself)of Jesus' obedience/sacrifice/Victory is where our salvation lay. Think of some real scoundrels(Hebrews 11)Lot, Jacob(that whole family), Samson, etc... Sure, it's disappointing(at least)when 'the body' doesn't act in an appropriate manner or to my preference but that's their reality be it pettiness, license or spite; I won't be a party to their games.

Joshua 24:15-"And if you be unwilling to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell; but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."



drmark -> RE: Mean & Purposely-Sinning Believers (not you -- those other people) (5/9/2008 7:18:04 PM)

quote:

Since my tenure at that church, and especially during my search for a different place of worship, I have learned that other churches that are like this one, or that are highly peopled with people like this, are very fervent pray-ers in very similar ways. Skilled pray-ers.
Fervor, volume, and skill have little to nothing to do with effective prayer - James 5:16b.

quote:

We can either live as “spoiled-rotten Christian brats,” or as “graciouos, compassionate Christ-followers”
There is no such thing as a Christian who is spoiled-rotten and bratty - 1 John 3:6.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Mean & Purposely-Sinning Believers (not you -- those other people) (5/9/2008 9:00:11 PM)

First, let me explain something. I doubt I need to say much about this, because we all have had the experience of a teaching meaning one thing to us, while it meant something different to another; a teaching that held the same basic meaning to us, while the same meaning took on a different nuance to another. You know that we all both hear teachings and read the Bible though the "lenses" of our experiences.

In defense of my boss, his sermon notes meant one thing to me, and laughing, I told him about it. He, then, had the opportunity to tell me his intentions, his meaning.

Bluntly, he doesn't have the actions I related here in his church, so he never dreamt I would take it as I did. His response to me, as we discussed his upcoming sermon, was people who become believers, but they don't bother to reach out to others with the Good News, those who don't reach out to others with needs, etc. They are satisfied with their salvation, but they don't share it. These, he said, are the "spoiled brats" who relish G-d's mercy but don't share what G-d has done in these ways.



Doghouse -> RE: Mean & Purposely-Sinning Believers (not you -- those other people) (5/10/2008 8:05:06 AM)

quote:

It's not our performance/nonperformance(thank goodness)but appropriation(claiming for oneself)of Jesus' obedience/sacrifice/Victory is where our salvation lay
Covaan...here's your problem right here...

There are too many in the Kingdom who think that Christianity is like joining Sam's Club (get a card and you get to get in the building), rather than being about conversion and change. Some are so indoctrinated against change and conversion because that might be a "work", that they miss the whole point of "salvation", whose Latin root "salv-" is the same as the root of salve - as in "to heal". This requires effort, cooperation with grace - to affect change and conversion. Its not something that is just "decreed" - it is "done", "efforted", "actioned". Turning away from the dark and towards the light, etc. Preaching against "works" was invented by pastors who did not care to follow their own advice and got tired of being called on the carpet for it - so much so that they changed the message to "it doesn't matter what you do - only what you say or profess".

I believe that beginning with Calvin, an essentially false doctrine regarding the "results" of Christianity as being imputed righteousness, versus a conversion to actual, real-deal righteousness, has given many the "get-out-of-jail-free" card that they feel they may now disparage their fellow man, and basically ascribe to the behaviors you noted in the OP.

No doubt we do take on the righteousness of Jesus by following in His footsteps, for if we truly follow flawlessly - we commit no sin and we demonstrate faith, hope and charity in our every thought, word and deed. If this "following" is something we didn't do in the past, then it requires effort from us to affect this change in our lives. This is not "works", but is the very process of salvation - becoming more and more Christ-like, and in doing so - taking on His righteousness as our own. This righteousness is not earned, but it is the result of the action of conversion.

My son's mother-in-law has mentioned to me on more than one occasion that I am going to hell because I am Catholic. In my experience this is not typical for Methodists (which she is...), or anyone else out there, but - it's something I have to deal with in my personal situation occasionally around the holidays, etc. I just ignore it, as it reflects a certain lack of class, or maybe even ignorance. I get to see it implied a fair amount here (several users are on my blocked list because they are so obsessed with anti-Catholic sentiment) - by non-Catholics, including one who claims to be a preacher.

If the pastoral leadership is of the mindset you describe in your OP, how can we expect the flock to behave any differently?



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Mean & Purposely-Sinning Believers (not you -- those other people) (5/10/2008 9:20:14 AM)

I didn't even stop to think about the fact that this discussion could bring up the ideas of reformism versus Arminianism. I'm sorry. My ignorance and my desire to find out what others have observed made me short-sighted in this area. Forgive me, please.

This thread is certainly NOT against Arminianism, especially since the church we had attended was a strange and particular brand of Amrinianism, which would cause Arminius to turn flips in his grave. But just for the sake of information, they were a form of Arminianism that believed it was very possible for all believers to live their whole believing lives without ever sinning at all and who called some things that the Bible calls sin "errors."

But at the same time, I don't want this to become an Arminianism versus reformism thread.
_____________________________

Deliveredarling --
The problem is that you write that you act this way on occasion. These people act this way consistently. Not every single one of them, by any means, but of the ones with whom I had the most regular contact, all the time! This is their personal demeanor! Who they are! Now, grant it, I haven't been around them much since late 1999, but for example, attendance at a funeral dinner there was so bad that I left early!

Sure, I can get out of sorts at times, but there is always Someone there to point it out and demand change! Now! Where is that One in these lives (and I recognize fully that I am being judgmental, but He just isn't evidenced)! Regarding the "christian" group I have dealt with most since leaving that church, among the leadership, there is absolutely no hesitancy to lie to my face -- often! -- for example, yet they are very, very religious in their actions, fervor, and prayers. This is very confusing.
_____________________________

LCannon --
You are apparently of the reformed persuasion, and so am I. However, I believe that our actions will follow the work of the H Spirit in our lives -- that we will conform to the Savior rather quickly, so that the actions I mentioned above are not dominant in our lives, as these actions are in the lives I have presented. I am trying to understand why these types of actions are dominant, nearly all-encompassing, in their lives. I mentioned the lying in one such group. Of this group, with regard to the leaders especially, if they are talking to me, they are lying, mincing the truth, withholding pertinent information in order to change the facts, etc., and I must deal with them on a professional level. This is very frustrating.
_____________________________

drmark --
quote:

Fervor, volume, and skill have little to nothing to do with effective prayer
So agreed. But this is scary. I want to believe they are just innocent and have no idea what they are doing, because the alternative is frightening!
_____________________________

Doghouse --
To be really honest, I have not studied Calvin, but I think it could be likely that Calvin, too, would do flips in his grave, if he knew what is being taught in his name.
quote:

No doubt we do take on the righteousness of Jesus by following in His footsteps, for if we truly follow flawlessly - we commit no sin and we demonstrate faith, hope and charity in our every thought, word and deed. If this "following" is something we didn't do in the past, then it requires effort from us to affect this change in our lives. This is not "works", but is the very process of salvation - becoming more and more Christ-like, and in doing so - taking on His righteousness as our own. This righteousness is not earned, but it is the result of the action of conversion.
I can agree with you to a point, but the fact is that I have been a believer for many, many years, and I am not perfect yet. I think that in reality, both our responses come down to our individual definitions of sin.



rcjames -> RE: Mean & Purposely-Sinning Believers (not you -- those other people) (5/10/2008 9:44:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
So, bottom line: what are you thinking?


(1Co 5:11) But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

Thanks
RC



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Mean & Purposely-Sinning Believers (not you -- those other people) (5/10/2008 9:58:31 AM)

Gulp. You have brought up a Scripture that is pertinent to me for this very day. I guess I made the right decision, even though I didn't think of it.



deliveredarling -> RE: Mean & Purposely-Sinning Believers (not you -- those other people) (5/10/2008 10:17:05 AM)

That is the hard one, especially when we love these people and we want the very best for them. It breaks my heart.[&o]



drmark -> RE: Mean & Purposely-Sinning Believers (not you -- those other people) (5/10/2008 1:45:55 PM)

quote:

You are apparently of the reformed persuasion, and so am I.
quote:

To be really honest, I have not studied Calvin,
Abiyah, how do you know you are "of the reformed persuasion" if you've never studied the founder of Reformed Theology? Maybe you just think you're "reformed" - most of your posts on holiness are thoroughly Arminian in perspective. [;)]



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Mean & Purposely-Sinning Believers (not you -- those other people) (5/11/2008 1:00:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:

You are apparently of the reformed persuasion, and so am I.
quote:

To be really honest, I have not studied Calvin,
Abiyah, how do you know you are "of the reformed persuasion" if you've never studied the founder of Reformed Theology? Maybe you just think you're "reformed" - most of your posts on holiness are thoroughly Arminian in perspective. [;)]

[:D]! I recognize that calling this movement "reformed" may, to some, be simply my attempt to sanitize it through Newspeak, but I call it reformed because I do not see the reformed movement as it is taught where I attend as all about Calvin and the 5 points, just as I don't see the Arminian movement as all about Arminius. I am not satisfied that what I grasp as reformed came from one person or even one movement but through the teachings of many both before Calvin and after Calvin.

Another struggle I have with Calvin is the one I have with many of the earlier church movers and shakers, and that is I cannot swallow the cruelty of those who murdered and condoned murder and cruelty in the name of the G-d I love and serve, who denounced and forcibly baptized Jews while calling it conversion, who made up lies for which so many died, who were as ugly and crude as humanity can get -- and all in the name of religion.

Just a personal thing -- that's all.



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