RE: Stephen King Stands By Comments On Military (Full Version)

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rhippie -> RE: Stephen King Stands By Comments On Military (5/14/2008 7:28:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TomTurn

quote:

He dropped out of college and then stupidly made a lot of bad decisions. The army is his way of "getting his life back together." I sincerely hope it does.


So Stephen King is once again a idiot?





What do you mean "once again"? When did he ever stop being an idiot?



TomTurn -> RE: Stephen King Stands By Comments On Military (5/14/2008 10:41:35 PM)

quote:

Aren't we touchy? Take away the Bill of Rights and see the same results. It's about balance of power and responsibility. That's why the Commander-in-chief is a civilian.


And one of those protectors of our freedoms in that balance of power is the military man or woman standing the line. Under whose protection King writes his drivel and cashes his checks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Which you know and I know and it could have been left at that but for some reason you wnated to spout off thinking you were going to give me a civics lesson.



IonMoon -> RE: Stephen King Stands By Comments On Military (5/15/2008 9:56:37 AM)

He obviously overstated it, but really, the military is often the choice that people make when they are cut out for college (whether academically or interest/personality) or the workforce.

Sure lots of talented people also enter the military- and they typically move up in the ranks quickly... but there are a lot out there who just go in because they need a good job, they need discipline, etc. and don't have the skills/education to succeed elsewhere.

Also- to deny there is drug/alcohol abuse among military is ignorance. Is it "allowed"? Of course not. Does it happen- absolutely.

I work with young adults and see people from a variety of backgrounds. The ones in the military typically are in one of 3 categories: 1. almost or completely abstain from alcohol, and definiately NO drugs; 2. mostly clean, but may party heavy on the weekends/leave; 3. Excessive use of drugs/alcohol have either found ways around the tests or gotten lucky.

Tara P



mapachito13 -> RE: Stephen King Stands By Comments On Military (5/15/2008 10:19:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rainbowtvp

I work with young adults and see people from a variety of backgrounds. The ones in the military typically are in one of 3 categories: 1. almost or completely abstain from alcohol, and definiately NO drugs; 2. mostly clean, but may party heavy on the weekends/leave; 3. Excessive use of drugs/alcohol have either found ways around the tests or gotten lucky.



Looks like a cross section of the population at large. I be willing to bet that the people rated 1 & 2 spent more time in the service too compared with the people in the third category. Also the #3 people will be populated with those of the lowest rank.



lightshineon -> RE: Stephen King Stands By Comments On Military (5/15/2008 10:34:59 AM)

Tara, I know with my husband they do random drug screening PEE test. It is a seriuos issue, so what army is anyone talking about. He is a college graduate, a high ranking officer, been commissioned since he was 19. He is far from stupid, he is smarter than most.
quote:

ORIGINAL: rainbowtvp

He obviously overstated it, but really, the military is often the choice that people make when they are cut out for college (whether academically or interest/personality) or the workforce.

Sure lots of talented people also enter the military- and they typically move up in the ranks quickly... but there are a lot out there who just go in because they need a good job, they need discipline, etc. and don't have the skills/education to succeed elsewhere.

Also- to deny there is drug/alcohol abuse among military is ignorance. Is it "allowed"? Of course not. Does it happen- absolutely.

I work with young adults and see people from a variety of backgrounds. The ones in the military typically are in one of 3 categories: 1. almost or completely abstain from alcohol, and definiately NO drugs; 2. mostly clean, but may party heavy on the weekends/leave; 3. Excessive use of drugs/alcohol have either found ways around the tests or gotten lucky.

Tara P



landabee -> RE: Stephen King Stands By Comments On Military (5/15/2008 11:16:02 AM)

I don't think anyone in this thread has insinuated that a family member of a poster isn't intelligent. [;)]

I think the crux of the matter is: our standards are declining for military entrance.

As others have pointed out: it is a phenomenon seen across all occupational industries in the U.S.

Sadly, there was some truth in what Mr. King stated. As unpalatable as that truth is, and no matter how coarsely spoken... it remains an issue of import.

As I pointed out earlier in the thread: I come from a military family background.
[;)]

Everyone at some time or another works with "dim wits" or worse.... but the impact of such is quite dependent on the numbers of persons that are harder to train and the the nature of the work.

I in no way approve of how he said what he said......but it needed to be pointed out to underachieving students the possilble limitation of career options.

In war time...... that is a consideration for those who do not want or cannot for personal/religious reasons serve.


quote:


He obviously overstated it, but really, the military is often the choice that people make when they are cut out for college (whether academically or interest/personality) or the workforce.

Sure lots of talented people also enter the military- and they typically move up in the ranks quickly... but there are a lot out there who just go in because they need a good job, they need discipline, etc. and don't have the skills/education to succeed elsewhere.

Also- to deny there is drug/alcohol abuse among military is ignorance. Is it "allowed"? Of course not. Does it happen- absolutely.

I work with young adults and see people from a variety of backgrounds. The ones in the military typically are in one of 3 categories: 1. almost or completely abstain from alcohol, and definiately NO drugs; 2. mostly clean, but may party heavy on the weekends/leave; 3. Excessive use of drugs/alcohol have either found ways around the tests or gotten lucky.

Tara P



IonMoon -> RE: Stephen King Stands By Comments On Military (5/15/2008 12:13:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lightshineon
Tara, I know with my husband they do random drug screening PEE test. It is a seriuos issue, so what army is anyone talking about. He is a college graduate, a high ranking officer, been commissioned since he was 19. He is far from stupid, he is smarter than most.


Right- as I said, there are ways to either get around testing or to plan for it (and this isn't specifically about the military). Some people get unofficial warnings of "random" drug tests. There are also drugs that can be taken that won't show up in the tests. To a normal person, random drug testing seems unbeatable, but people in the know can do it.

Aslo- no one is saying your dh is not intelligent and hard working or that ALL military (or even most) are like this. I tried to make that clear in my post- there are lots of people who are highly intelligent and motivated who enter the military because they want to be there, but would be successful ANYWHERE... and then there are others who go into the military because their only alternatives are minimum wage jobs. This is because "the military" has a wide range of positions. Some are difficult and require a great deal of skill... others do not. And as has been said, the military has lowered their standards.

SO... while there are lots of people like your husband in the military, there are also a lot of people who AREN'T like your dh.

Tara P



IonMoon -> RE: Stephen King Stands By Comments On Military (5/15/2008 12:19:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mapachito13
Looks like a cross section of the population at large. I be willing to bet that the people rated 1 & 2 spent more time in the service too compared with the people in the third category. Also the #3 people will be populated with those of the lowest rank.


I have only seen a difference in the trend for people who are career military and those who just want to put in their time and get out. How long they have been there doesn't seem to make a difference (IOW- someone who is career military has no prior drug/al abuse, not just current- does that make sense?).

As far as age- what is typical in this age group is that most people are in category 2... in the military people compared to non-military, I see a larger percentage in groups 1 & 3. It is incredibly rare to see an abstainer outside military/very conservative religious groups in young adult males.

What I haven't seen much of among the military is recreational drug users (which would be as common as category 2 I described above in the general public)... it is either nothing or abuse/dependence.

Tara P



cow451 -> RE: Stephen King Stands By Comments On Military (5/15/2008 4:14:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TomTurn

quote:

Aren't we touchy? Take away the Bill of Rights and see the same results. It's about balance of power and responsibility. That's why the Commander-in-chief is a civilian.


And one of those protectors of our freedoms in that balance of power is the military man or woman standing the line. Under whose protection King writes his drivel and cashes his checks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Which you know and I know and it could have been left at that but for some reason you wnated to spout off thinking you were going to give me a civics lesson.

Sorry you're having another bad day. We both have valid points to make.



TomTurn -> RE: Stephen King Stands By Comments On Military (5/15/2008 4:32:40 PM)

quote:

Sorry you're having another bad day. We both have valid points to make.


You can make all the points you want, even a so very wrong one as you did. What you cannot do is print words inferring that I said something I did not and then attmept to make untrue that our freedoms are enjoyed under the protection of the men and woman in the military, including that bonehead, ding dong, two faced, lying sack of excrement Stephen King to write his drivel and profit from it.

Your exact phrase "He isn't "writing under the protection of the military". He's utilizing free speech, just as we are here in this forum."

Now you tell me, does everyone who hates America and would like to see us gone respect our right to free speech? If no, who is standing the line protecting us from them? If radical islum wanted to have the U.S. surrender to them, would they back off when we showed them our Bill Of Rights? Would they say, "sure go ahead and continue the forum on Crosswalk, we respect your freedom to do that"?

Now here it is again "He isn't "writing under the protection of the military". He's utilizing free speech, just as we are here in this forum." Do you want to make any corrections to that statement?



TomTurn -> RE: Stephen King Stands By Comments On Military (5/15/2008 4:40:37 PM)

Just returned from an uneventful drive to the hardware store, just another mundane chore. What I know is that I was able to do so and it even be mundane because men and women are willing to stand the line against people who would like to take away even that small freedom. I move through my day today life under their protection. God Bless them and I am so thankful for them

TomTurn, not a product of todays public education or beaten into being such a politcally correct, to love America is to trash it wimp that I cannot and will not stand up for what is right. And Stephen King can have a pucker party on my pale rear



mapachito13 -> RE: Stephen King Stands By Comments On Military (5/15/2008 4:44:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TomTurn

Now here it is again "He isn't "writing under the protection of the military". He's utilizing free speech, just as we are here in this forum." Do you want to make any corrections to that statement?


I think what he meant was that the military defends the US Constitution of which the 1st Amendment is a part. They INDIRECTLY defend the right of Mr. King (and all the rest of us for that matter) to spout our rubbish filled opinions.

Liken it to the police defending a march of the KKK through an African-American neighborhood. I'm sure the police would love to go home and let the community have at them but they are there protecting their right to wear a sheet and act like fools.



landabee -> RE: Stephen King Stands By Comments On Military (5/15/2008 5:19:55 PM)

Just one point: pointing out a problem, or deficit or truth isn't congruent with trashing of our country.

We are simply talking about the issues facing our enlisted military.

Nothing more... nothing less.

The problem exists. It isn't unpatriotic to recognize a problem, even in a country that you may love.

There are many folks in our armed forces that do not meet the description made by Mr. King. However, there are many more that do increasingly daily.

One more thing: we are talking enlisted....not commissioned.



cow451 -> RE: Stephen King Stands By Comments On Military (5/15/2008 6:01:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TomTurn

quote:

Sorry you're having another bad day. We both have valid points to make.


You can make all the points you want, even a so very wrong one as you did. What you cannot do is print words inferring that I said something I did not and then attmept to make untrue that our freedoms are enjoyed under the protection of the men and woman in the military, including that bonehead, ding dong, two faced, lying sack of excrement Stephen King to write his drivel and profit from it.

Your exact phrase "He isn't "writing under the protection of the military". He's utilizing free speech, just as we are here in this forum."

Now you tell me, does everyone who hates America and would like to see us gone respect our right to free speech? If no, who is standing the line protecting us from them? If radical islum wanted to have the U.S. surrender to them, would they back off when we showed them our Bill Of Rights? Would they say, "sure go ahead and continue the forum on Crosswalk, we respect your freedom to do that"?

Now here it is again "He isn't "writing under the protection of the military". He's utilizing free speech, just as we are here in this forum." Do you want to make any corrections to that statement?

He makes his living and exercises his freedom just as all the rest of Americans do . I don't think he said anything about "wanting us gone", whatever that means. He made some sweeping disparaging remarks about the military and is rightly called to task for it. The military has a vital role to play, but every powerful nation has a military. The military is not what distinguishes the US from Iran, Russia, Panama, etc. I don't see what the foaming at the mouth is about. His remarks speak for themselves.



TomTurn -> RE: Stephen King Stands By Comments On Military (5/15/2008 10:08:59 PM)

quote:

He makes his living and exercises his freedom just as all the rest of Americans do


Under the protection of the miltary, standing the line between us and those who do not want us to have that freedom .

quote:

I don't think he said anything about "wanting us gone" whatever that means.


It means there are people who want the U.S. and its freedoms, gone. There are even people outside the U.S. who want Cow451 dead. And someone is standing in between you and them, protecting you and your freedoms

quote:

He made some sweeping disparaging remarks about the military and is rightly called to task for it.


He has not been called to task. How many other places have you even heard about it other than here? He is just another leftist blowhard being toasted by the other leftists.

quote:

The military has a vital role to play, but every powerful nation has a military. The military is not what distinguishes the US from Iran, Russia, Panama, etc.


And many of those powerful nations where/are not our frineds and would be happy to see you not have the freedom you do. Who is standing the line between you and them?

quote:

I don't see what the foaming at the mouth is about. His remarks speak for themselves.


You remarks bother me just about as much as his.

Now here it is again "He isn't "writing under the protection of the military". He's utilizing free speech, just as we are here in this forum." Do you want to make any corrections to that statement?



landabee -> RE: Stephen King Stands By Comments On Military (5/16/2008 8:39:21 AM)

The first step in constructive criticism to identify the problem.

The first step in making progress is the admission of a problem.

No, I don't pretend to have a well thought out solution... as the problem is quite complicated.

But it does absolutely no good to take offense at an offensive messenger...even if there is truth buried in the bias.

Identify the bias.... identify the truth..... separate the two.

So...... Mr. King has absolutely no bearing on the fact that the problem exists. He simply has no sense of decorum. [;)]

Mr. King was not attempting to solve the issue with the military's enlistment woes. He was simply trying to advise young adults that are making poor choices academically. Sadly, he also was getting in a slam against military enlistment.



rnershigh -> RE: Stephen King Stands By Comments On Military (5/16/2008 10:34:03 AM)

I don't know why this is, but the military always bears the brunt of all criticism that people have toward our government or country.
Easy scapegoat and it ticks me off as I come from a military family and have relative in the military.
I know growing up on military installations and meeting military personnel that what King said is so not true (and others like him).
Sure the military has its bad apples, what profession doesn't?!
But by and large they are all decent, hard-working people and not there because they had no where else to go.
So the military accepts you if you had a past, at least they are willing to take a person in and teach them discipline, honor and how to have self-confidence in one's abilities.
So a person is needing direction and wants an opportunity, the military will give it to you if you want it.
This does not mean the military is an organization of has-beens and rejects of society.
What poor word choice on King's part.[:@]



lightshineon -> RE: Stephen King Stands By Comments On Military (5/16/2008 11:49:13 AM)

Number uno, the Bible says do not set in the council of sinners. All King does is write ungodly mess, and is in the world, so why would a Christian care what Mr. Creepy has to say? The Bible tells us not to even go there.



ljmac -> RE: Stephen King Stands By Comments On Military (5/16/2008 11:52:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rnershigh

I don't know why this is, but the military always bears the brunt of all criticism that people have toward our government or country.Easy scapegoat and it ticks me off as I come from a military family and have relative in the military.
I know growing up on military installations and meeting military personnel that what King said is so not true (and others like him).
Sure the military has its bad apples, what profession doesn't?!
But by and large they are all decent, hard-working people and not there because they had no where else to go.
So the military accepts you if you had a past, at least they are willing to take a person in and teach them discipline, honor and how to have self-confidence in one's abilities.
So a person is needing direction and wants an opportunity, the military will give it to you if you want it.
This does not mean the military is an organization of has-beens and rejects of society.
What poor word choice on King's part.[:@]


No, liberals attack our military. Conservatives do not.

I doubt King's words were poorly chosen. He simply revealed what he believes. Why get so worked up about it? High level members of the Democratic party have said far worse. Their last Presidential nominee made a career of lying about the military and has in recent history characterized them as dumb terrorists. Senator Dick Durbin (D-IL) said that they are like Nazis. Senator Ed Kennedy (D-MA) has essentially joined our enemies by promoting our soldiers failures. Rep. John Murtha (D-PA) called our soldiers cold blooded murderers.

Next time you hear a liberal say "We support the troops," remember what they said when they were unguarded.



lightshineon -> RE: Stephen King Stands By Comments On Military (5/16/2008 12:01:57 PM)

I only wish most of these cowards had to fight.



saved9201 -> RE: Stephen King Stands By Comments On Military (5/17/2008 8:53:53 AM)

quote:

His words: "The fact is if you can read, you can walk into a job later on. If you don't, then you've got the Army, Iraq, I don't know, something like that," King said.


King's just ignorant and out of touch. It's obvious from his books and movies he has a twisted sense of reality but he's not alone. The following spiel has been given to a lot of friends, family and co-workers over the years who's idea of a servicemember is a grunting "Rambo" type.

Having served 23 years in the army, I can say that even infantrymen have to meet some minimum academic requirements. As far as standards being lowered, the only standards that were lowered recently that I know of were the stringent physical standards. Think about it. The military has gotten extremely high tech over the years. They need brighter individuals to operate and maintain the new systems. Its not just "beans and bullets" anymore. King probably doesn't realize the military has numerous branches and fields. I was in the military intelligence field - a Vietnamese linguist. I knew some enlisted service members who spoke several languages as well as being experts in other fields. A lot of the technology we have today including cell phones, gps navigation systems, digital photography - I "played" with in the 80's when I was a young enlisted soldier in the army. Who really "invented" the internet? Sorry Al, it was the military.

As far as people going to the military because they can't get jobs. Well, thats true too, in fact that's one reason I went. And I had a college degree as do a lot of other enlistees. My point is, knowing how to read, or even having a college degree doesn't always guarantee you a marketable skill nowadays. Many people I worked with in the military learned about state of the art equipment, became certified in various network technologies - for free - and left the military and were scooped up by high tech corporations. So I don't get offended by people like King who look down on the military. The military's existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to some like King, saves lives. But there are far, far many more people who understand, respect and appreciate them for the job they do.

By the way, I have a son who's in the Air Force in Iraq right now.

- Julius



davemiller7 -> RE: Stephen King Stands By Comments On Military (5/17/2008 2:36:45 PM)

I understand your point, but I wouldn't them in the foxhole next to me. I'll fight to my death, and I want those in my company to be willing to do the same.

-Dave

PS: I'm still praying for you & your Dad

quote:

ORIGINAL: lightshineon

I only wish most of these cowards had to fight.



lightshineon -> RE: Stephen King Stands By Comments On Military (5/17/2008 11:32:48 PM)

Thanks Dave, so much appreciated. Well, you have a point, they turn and run, leaving you in the fox hole. Armed forces is alot about loyalty, and laying your life down for a friend, not leaving someone hurt behind, while protectiong ones on behind. Thanks again for prayers.[:)]
quote:

ORIGINAL: davemiller7

I understand your point, but I wouldn't them in the foxhole next to me. I'll fight to my death, and I want those in my company to be willing to do the same.

-Dave

PS: I'm still praying for you & your Dad

quote:

ORIGINAL: lightshineon

I only wish most of these cowards had to fight.




mapachito13 -> RE: Stephen King Stands By Comments On Military (5/18/2008 3:48:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TomTurn

Under the protection of the miltary, standing the line between us and those who do not want us to have that freedom .

It means there are people who want the U.S. and its freedoms, gone. There are even people outside the U.S. who want Cow451 dead. And someone is standing in between you and them, protecting you and your freedoms

And many of those powerful nations where/are not our frineds and would be happy to see you not have the freedom you do. Who is standing the line between you and them?

You remarks bother me just about as much as his.


Your last comment echoes my sentiments about naive "patriotic" platitudes! (How big is that soap box anyway? [;)])

You enthusiastically defend the 2nd Amendment but NOT the 1st? Why do you not see that Mr. King has every RIGHT to air his silly opinion. (Putting it nicely. This is a Christian board, yes?) Those rights that are contained in the US Constitution are what set us apart NOT the military (other than the fact that it is civilian controlled)!

My concern is how more power is being given to "law enforcement" and the military in response to terrorism a la Patriot Acts I & II at the expense of our civil rights. They were the first step towards a police state. The government has a RIGHT now to spy on you for any reason of "National Security". But that's a subject for another thread!

Mr. King is guaranteed the RIGHT to talk like an idiot!! If the military isn't defending this right, then a police state IS definitely here already!



cow451 -> RE: Stephen King Stands By Comments On Military (5/19/2008 12:52:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lightshineon

I only wish most of these cowards had to fight.

Like Bush, Cheney, et al did?



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