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Lucifer... is he really evil? - 5/10/2008 4:11:39 AM
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Rasul
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Yesterday night I did some research on Lucifer (some call him Satan) and I was surprised at what I found. I have some questions.
Lucifer was an angel, the highest ranking of the angels of God. Lucifer loved and was totally devoted to God and God loved him.
Question 1. Was Lucifer a perfect being, an angel, before his fall?
Lucifer means the "light bringer" or the "morning star". An angel of great beauty.
Question 2. Would it be true to conclude the ideas that Lucifer is half beast and half man, a pan-like looking creature with cloven hooves and horns is just a myth created by the Catholic Church. In fact Lucifer retains his beauty as a former angel of heaven?
The problems between Lucifer and God arose when after God created man (Adam) he declared man his greatest creation. God ordered that all his angels bow down before man. Lucifer and many angels who as creatures of fire were very upset about having to bow down before man, a creature of clay.
Question 3. Look at all the people in our prisons, all the wars. Walk down your local town or city high street and see the sewage called humanity there. Look at Hitler, Saddam Hussein and Stalin. Why should angels have to bow down before mankind that produces this sort of rubbish?
Lucifer and a third of the angels rebelled at the idea of having to bow down before man. There was a great war in heaven and Lucifer was defeated.
Question 4. Lucifer totally loved God but he and other angels were being asked to love something other than God. Lucifer felt that he could only totally love one source, that was God, there was not room for his love of God to include man. A third of the angels agreed with Lucifer. Was God not being unreasonable here to expect his angels to split their love for him to include man as well?
When Lucifer was defeated he and other angel rebels were cast down to earth from heaven. Religious sources indicate that Lucifer and the other fallen angels exist upon either earth or in the air.
Question 5. If the fallen angels exist on earth or in the air would it be correct to say that hell does not exist, a creation of the Catholic Church?
When Lucifer fell to earth it is understandable that he was not happy with mankind who was the cause of his fall. Lucifer does not seem to me to have acted unreasonably, nor does he come over as having done anything wrong.
Question 6. What exactly did Lucifer do wrong?
Question 7. Is Lucifer really evil?
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RE: Lucifer... is he really evil? - 5/10/2008 12:45:25 PM
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Ps103
Posts: 11610
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Where on earth did you get this stuff?
"Lucifer" does not occur in most translations, so right off the bat you have a problem.
Where do you get the idea that Satan only rebelled against God after the creation of man?
Where do you get that God required Satan to bow down before man?
Satan rebelled due to his pride--he thought he should be above God. I see no benefit to be gained from pleading his case.
Yes, he is evil. Do not let him delude you into thinking otherwise.
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Lucifer... is he really evil? - 5/10/2008 1:20:24 PM
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bob97
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Satan opposes God and that is the end of the story, regardless of when and how the event took place. Satan will be dealt with as well as all of those who support him or said a different was...those who do not belong to Christ.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Lucifer... is he really evil? - 5/10/2008 3:01:24 PM
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Rasul
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Thanks for your answers.
My intial research into Lucifer indicated to me that he did not seem to be evil.
I turned to this site as being a source of expertise. Alas, I feel my questions remain unanswered.
I am going to now embark upon a full investigation and will then publish my full findings on the internet.
In the meantime, any further comments are most welcome and you can email me at:
rasul006 (at) yahoo . com
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RE: Lucifer... is he really evil? - 5/12/2008 1:29:12 PM
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In_Him_Grace
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In my opinion, the only information on Satan that we need is supplied for us in the Bible. There really isn't too much background on the pre-fall and fall of Satan, so I must conclude that God didn't deem it necessary for us to know all about it. We probably wouldn't understand it anyway. God tells us exactly what He wants us to know. Period. Any information you find that is not specifically written in the Word of God is pure speculation at best.
All we really need to know is that Satan is our enemy and an enemy of our Savior and Creator. Jesus said he was evil, didn't He? That's good enough for most of us.
Our focus of "study" should be on God, not Satan. It is dangerous to put that much time and thought into him. I don't know if you're a Christian, but if you are I suggest you "end" your research and turn your focus to where it needs to be. The enemy is a great deceiver, the best, and it sounds to me like you're being lured in the wrong direction.
Don't for one second sympathize with that wicked beast. He is pure evil.
In Him,
Misti
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RE: Lucifer... is he really evil? - 5/12/2008 4:40:46 PM
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ta_mosquito
Posts: 10917
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
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quote:
Lucifer was an angel, the highest ranking of the angels of God. Lucifer loved and was totally devoted to God and God loved him.
Question 1. Was Lucifer a perfect being, an angel, before his fall?
Yes... although I suppose it depends on your definition of "perfect."
quote:
Lucifer means the "light bringer" or the "morning star". An angel of great beauty.
Question 2. Would it be true to conclude the ideas that Lucifer is half beast and half man, a pan-like looking creature with cloven hooves and horns is just a myth created by the Catholic Church. In fact Lucifer retains his beauty as a former angel of heaven?
The imp in red pajamas is a false illustration of him, yes. Was that image created by the Catholics? I have no idea. Yes, Lucifer is beautiful.
quote:
The problems between Lucifer and God arose when after God created man (Adam) he declared man his greatest creation. God ordered that all his angels bow down before man. Lucifer and many angels who as creatures of fire were very upset about having to bow down before man, a creature of clay.
I don't see this in the Bible at all. The problems happened when Lucifer decided that he wanted to usurp God's authority and become like God himself.
quote:
Question 3. Look at all the people in our prisons, all the wars. Walk down your local town or city high street and see the sewage called humanity there. Look at Hitler, Saddam Hussein and Stalin. Why should angels have to bow down before mankind that produces this sort of rubbish?
Look at Adam before the fall. Sin has marred humanity, that's for sure.
quote:
Lucifer and a third of the angels rebelled at the idea of having to bow down before man. There was a great war in heaven and Lucifer was defeated.
Correction: Lucifer and a third of the angels rebelled at the idea of having to bow down before man God. There was a great war in heaven and Lucifer was defeated.
quote:
Question 4. Lucifer totally loved God but he and other angels were being asked to love something other than God. Lucifer felt that he could only totally love one source, that was God, there was not room for his love of God to include man. A third of the angels agreed with Lucifer. Was God not being unreasonable here to expect his angels to split their love for him to include man as well?
Your premise is false. Lucifer didn't totally love God - he wanted to usurp God. God is GOD; angels are created beings made by God to obey God. Period.
quote:
When Lucifer was defeated he and other angel rebels were cast down to earth from heaven. Religious sources indicate that Lucifer and the other fallen angels exist upon either earth or in the air.
Question 5. If the fallen angels exist on earth or in the air would it be correct to say that hell does not exist, a creation of the Catholic Church?
No. The existence of hell is well-taught in Scripture.
quote:
When Lucifer fell to earth it is understandable that he was not happy with mankind who was the cause of his fall. Lucifer does not seem to me to have acted unreasonably, nor does he come over as having done anything wrong.
Question 6. What exactly did Lucifer do wrong?
He disobeyed God. He tried to rebel against God. He makes war with God's creation, trying to destroy all God has created.
quote:
Question 7. Is Lucifer really evil?
Absolutely.
_____________________________
Tricia
"When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the fire department generally uses water." ~Unknown
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RE: Lucifer... is he really evil? - 5/13/2008 9:42:32 AM
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earthless
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Yes, according to the Bible he is.
And that is not circular reasoning when we have a plethora of evidence that points to the veracity of Scripture being what it claims to be - God's Word for all of mankind.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Lucifer... is he really evil? - 5/16/2008 9:26:28 AM
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unclemonkey
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ORIGINAL:Ps103quote:
Where on earth did you get this stuff?
My guess would either be Satan or the history channel.
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Visit my home church.
Also consider Life's Most Important Queston
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RE: Lucifer... is he really evil? - 5/19/2008 3:51:14 AM
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niteowljunkie
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Question 1. Was Lucifer a perfect being, an angel, before his fall?
I think in most interpretations he was.
Question 2. Would it be true to conclude the ideas that Lucifer is half beast and half man, a pan-like looking creature with cloven hooves and horns is just a myth created by the Catholic Church. In fact Lucifer retains his beauty as a former angel of heaven?
Definitely. And it makes sence for them to do so. In the Catholic Bible Lucifer is potrayed as evil and to enforce/credit this view its a good idea to give an unpleasent image to an unpleasent being.
Question 3. Look at all the people in our prisons, all the wars. Walk down your local town or city high street and see the sewage called humanity there. Look at Hitler, Saddam Hussein and Stalin. Why should angels have to bow down before mankind that produces this sort of rubbish?
They shouldn't. Nor should mankind bow before angels. God said that one was perfect and then the other. He never said that angels stopped being perfect or that humans were more perfect so one must assume they are equal.
Question 4. Lucifer totally loved God but he and other angels were being asked to love something other than God. Lucifer felt that he could only totally love one source, that was God, there was not room for his love of God to include man. A third of the angels agreed with Lucifer. Was God not being unreasonable here to expect his angels to split their love for him to include man as well?
The problem with this is that it is specifically the Persian interpretation. Most others differ greatly as to how Lucifer fell. But going with this one I do beleive it was unfair of God to ask that of the angels. They have spent, who knows how long, devoting their love and existance to God and only God. And one day he suddenly decides to disrupt everything they have followed and command them to love man aswell. Not cool.
Question 5. If the fallen angels exist on earth or in the air would it be correct to say that hell does not exist, a creation of the Catholic Church?
I believe that hell was created as a motivational tool. Avoid it. And to avoid it you must do so and so. In doing this you provide mental imagery, which is highly efective for most people, that will push them to to do right, or what they are taught is right.
Question 6. What exactly did Lucifer do wrong?
In some versions Lucifer became prideful and strived to be greater thean God which is a major sin. In the Persion version discussed previously, he did not obey the command of God to bow to man, instead choosing to love only God Himself.
Question 7. Is Lucifer really evil?
It's all a matter of opinon.
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RE: Lucifer... is he really evil? - 5/19/2008 6:42:30 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
It's all a matter of opinon.
Well, assuming Lucifer is fallen and is, in fact, Satan (which I think is a safe assumption to make) - then no, no it's not. Well, not for the Christian, anyway. The devil is our enemy. Period.
_____________________________
Can a mortal ask questions which God finds unanswerable? Quite easily, I should think. All nonsense questions are unanswerable.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Lucifer... is he really evil? - 5/19/2008 8:38:40 PM
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Ps103
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quote:
Question 2. Would it be true to conclude the ideas that Lucifer is half beast and half man, a pan-like looking creature with cloven hooves and horns is just a myth created by the Catholic Church. In fact Lucifer retains his beauty as a former angel of heaven?
Definitely. And it makes sence for them to do so. In the Catholic Bible Lucifer is potrayed as evil and to enforce/credit this view its a good idea to give an unpleasent image to an unpleasent being.
Source, please.
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Lucifer... is he really evil? - 5/19/2008 8:54:22 PM
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Restored_Heart
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quote:
Question 2. Would it be true to conclude the ideas that Lucifer is half beast and half man, a pan-like looking creature with cloven hooves and horns is just a myth created by the Catholic Church. In fact Lucifer retains his beauty as a former angel of heaven?
Question....
Would beauty without God's blessing in it still be beautiful? Or would it appear to be somehow warped?
_____________________________
Guildenstern: A man talking sense to himself is no madder than a man talking nonsense not to himself.
Rosencrantz: Or just as mad.
G: Or just as mad.
R: And he does both.
G: So there you are.
R: Stark raving sane.
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RE: Lucifer... is he really evil? - 5/20/2008 3:07:08 AM
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kelman
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quote:
Question 1. Was Lucifer a perfect being, an angel, before his fall?
I think in most interpretations he was. Yes, perfect, in the same way Adam was perfect before he fell.
quote:
Question 2. Would it be true to conclude the ideas that Lucifer is half beast and half man, a pan-like looking creature with cloven hooves and horns is just a myth created by the Catholic Church. In fact Lucifer retains his beauty as a former angel of heaven?
Definitely. And it makes sence for them to do so. In the Catholic Bible Lucifer is potrayed as evil and to enforce/credit this view its a good idea to give an unpleasent image to an unpleasent being. Since Satan is a spirit, what he looks like is rather a moot point. Since he is evil, it isn’t unreasonable to portray him in an evil light. Hopefully, people understand that what they're viewing is simply an artist's perspective.
quote:
Question 3. Look at all the people in our prisons, all the wars. Walk down your local town or city high street and see the sewage called humanity there. Look at Hitler, Saddam Hussein and Stalin. Why should angels have to bow down before mankind that produces this sort of rubbish?.... Who says they do?
quote:
They shouldn't. Nor should mankind bow before angels. God said that one was perfect and then the other. He never said that angels stopped being perfect or that humans were more perfect so one must assume they are equal. Of course Scripture says that "some" angels stopped being perfect: "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."
In addition, Scripture also says man was made a "little lower" than the angels: “Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands” –Hebrews 2:7 Therefore, man and angels are not “equal”.
quote:
Question 4. Lucifer totally loved God but he and other angels were being asked to love something other than God. Lucifer felt that he could only totally love one source, that was God, there was not room for his love of God to include man. A third of the angels agreed with Lucifer. Was God not being unreasonable here to expect his angels to split their love for him to include man as well? Since God is their Creator, it is the angel's job to obey the commands of God. They don’t get a say in whether God is being “unreasonable” or not. They were to be ministering spirits to man as man ruled over the earth. No doubt Satan thought he should be the ruler of all the earth and wasn’t about to handover that little perk to man. I don’t see anywhere that Satan was to “love” man.
quote:
The problem with this is that it is specifically the Persian interpretation. Most others differ greatly as to how Lucifer fell. But going with this one I do beleive it was unfair of God to ask that of the angels. They have spent, who knows how long, devoting their love and existance to God and only God. And one day he suddenly decides to disrupt everything they have followed and command them to love man aswell. Not cool. Yep, how dare God continue on with His plans for man, how dare He “disrupt” angelic lives. Are you actually kidding here or what?
quote:
Question 5. If the fallen angels exist on earth or in the air would it be correct to say that hell does not exist, a creation of the Catholic Church? No, what’s fair to say is that the final end to all things has not yet occurred.
quote:
I believe that hell was created as a motivational tool. Avoid it. And to avoid it you must do so and so. In doing this you provide mental imagery, which is highly efective for most people, that will push them to to do right, or what they are taught is right. Whatever “hell” actually is, one thing is sure, it is for real since Christ and the OT spoke often enough about eternal death and destruction.
quote:
Question 6. What exactly did Lucifer do wrong? He disobeyed God. He tempted Eve to sin. When Adam followed in Satan’s footsteps he plunged the world into sinful chaos.
quote:
In some versions Lucifer became prideful and strived to be greater thean God which is a major sin. In the Persion version discussed previously, he did not obey the command of God to bow to man, instead choosing to love only God Himself. Just goes to show how some versions can be wrong. If Satan actually “loved” God, he would have obeyed Him. Obedience is an evidence of loving God “If ye love me, keep my commandments.” –John 14:15
quote:
Question 7. Is Lucifer really evil?
It's all a matter of opinon. We’ll let God answer that question since His opinion is the only one that matters;
And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye? –Acts 19:15
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; –Hebrews 2:14
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. -1John 3:8
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. –Matthew 13:19
And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day? –Luke 13:16
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. –John 8:44
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. –Revelation 12:9
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: -1Peter 5:8
I don’t know about you; but, the above doesn’t sound like Satan is just some poor misguided spirit.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Lucifer... is he really evil? - 5/20/2008 6:12:22 AM
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TheoJunkie
Posts: 2334
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Death to Life
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quote:
I turned to this site as being a source of expertise. Alas, I feel my questions remain unanswered.
I am going to now embark upon a full investigation and will then publish my full findings on the internet.
Is this supposed to be a threat?
Rasul, the Internet is too big. No one will find your findings there. Take out TV ads if you really want to reach people. You might have some success making a YouTube video and tweaking it so it goes "viral". I think you'll need some nudie pictures in it, a couple of really painful looking skateboard accidents, and maybe a beheading. But then you'll have your vehicle and you can intersperse the fun stuff with your message (or, findings, as it were).
_____________________________
-John
God is God. Get used to it.
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RE: Lucifer... is he really evil? - 5/20/2008 10:47:50 AM
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broken2live4him
Posts: 32
Joined: 4/26/2008
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1 Peter 5:8, "Stay alert! Watch out for your great enemy, the devil. He prowls around like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour."
James 4:7, "so humble yourselves before God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you."
 there are a number of other verses throughout the bible that warn us about "Lucifer," satan aka the devil as we know him. don't underestimate the enemy of our soul. satan wants you to believe he is good. he is the epitome of evil, not to be worshiped or admired and satan is not omnipotent or omniscient... Reference Genesis 3:1; Job 1:6-7; Matthew 4:1, Mark 1:12-13; Ephesians 2:2, 6:10-17; 2 Thessalonians 3:1-3; Colossians 1:13; Revelation 12:3-4, 12, 20:3,10... and there are more, but if i put anymore you will be reading a long time. Read the book of Job, the first couple of chapters... etc etc etc
_____________________________
broken2live4him
haggai 2:23
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RE: Lucifer... is he really evil? - 5/23/2008 10:39:17 PM
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lmwal931
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i like peaceful images. satan, lucifer, etc, is us. we all contribute but not as much as pre-christian days. i believe in purgatory since i had a vision. i don't think every person in purgatory goes to heaven. i think there is some kind of limit in purgatory. you can't love GOD without creation. 1st john. and HE created babies that have been aborted.
JESUS is the only way.
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RE: Lucifer... is he really evil? - 5/23/2008 10:41:16 PM
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lmwal931
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quote:
. time limit.
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RE: Lucifer... is he really evil? - 5/23/2008 11:06:14 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 732
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
i like peaceful images. satan, lucifer, etc, is us. we all contribute but not as much as pre-christian days. i believe in purgatory since i had a vision. i don't think every person in purgatory goes to heaven. i think there is some kind of limit in purgatory.
lmwal931, do you have any biblical support for any of this? : )
_____________________________
Can a mortal ask questions which God finds unanswerable? Quite easily, I should think. All nonsense questions are unanswerable.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Lucifer... is he really evil? - 5/29/2008 1:07:35 AM
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Bro_Shane
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lmwal931
i like peaceful images. satan, lucifer, etc, is us. we all contribute but not as much as pre-christian days. i believe in purgatory since i had a vision. i don't think every person in purgatory goes to heaven. i think there is some kind of limit in purgatory. you can't love GOD without creation. 1st john. and HE created babies that have been aborted.
JESUS is the only way.
I mean this with much love and respect, but you have no scriptural basis or support for this. If what you say is true, then how do you explain the conversation God has with Satan in the book of Job? What about the direct mention of Satan as a distinct being throughout scripture? What of the direct refrences to him in Revelation? None of these support your assertion that "satan, lucifer, etc, is us."
In the garden, beore the fall, Adam and Eve were innocent an without sin - so how could a person who is without sin be Satan?
If you believe you have scriptural support for these things, please give it.
_____________________________
I'm baaaack!
Now, where was that Benny Hinn thread?
Numbah One OG Thread Killa
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RE: Lucifer... is he really evil? - 5/30/2008 7:41:23 PM
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Godhead
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The prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
(Joh 14:30)
By causing mankind to obey him instead of God, Satan became the prince of this world.
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.
(Job 1:1)
And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
(Job 1:8)
Put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
(Job 1:11)
Satan wants everyone to follow him. He hates anyone who fears God, and so sets out to turn God fearers into God haters. He did not suceed doing that in Jobs Case.
In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.
(Job 1:22)
Satan wants your obediance and seeks to turn you away from God , to follow him. Thats why hardships, troubles and afliction come our way. You need to be aware of this and sin not or charge God foolishly.
Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.
(Jas 5:11)
Interestingly enough, Jesus did not have or need any of the things that Job had, possessions, wife, kids. So Satan could not use them against Him.
Is Lucifer Evil, well yes!
_____________________________
A Seventh day Adventist came up to me and said, “Do you know that there is no hell?”
I then immediately replied, “Well you have nothing to worry about then.”
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