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RE: Genetically Modified Human Embryo - 5/17/2008 11:00:39 AM
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essentialsaltes
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
I don't read other "holy books" because they're not authored by the Holy One. You'll have to show me that they are.
The Koran is a record of the exact words revealed by God through the Angel Gabriel to the Muhammad. It says so itself!
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Genetically Modified Human Embryo - 5/17/2008 12:41:25 PM
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drmark
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Once again, es, you make all sorts of pronouncements without a shred of evidence to back them up! This article demonstrates the unreliability of the Koran's prophesies, thus why should we believe it's alleged authorship? Care to try again?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Genetically Modified Human Embryo - 5/17/2008 1:16:39 PM
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swan42
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quote:
This is a moral code based on God's ethics, designed to uphold truth and justice, and supported by time-honored principles of due process and protection of the innocent.
Read literally, a not unreasonable interpretation of Deuteronomy is that the first followers of Jesus should have been stoned to death. Anyway, I 'm not going to discuss utilitarian ethics today, I just couldn't pass up the opportunity to discuss the moral authority of the Bible.
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RE: Genetically Modified Human Embryo - 5/17/2008 1:25:42 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3265
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Nice dodge, swan!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Genetically Modified Human Embryo - 5/17/2008 4:16:29 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 500
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quote:
drj11
Such blind faith is one of the most glaring character flaws possible in a human being
quote:
drmark
If you truly think Christianity is based on "blind faith", drj, then you know essentially nothing about Jesus Christ! Why don't you look into His claims instead of making wildly speculative insults about something you are so ignorant of? THIS ARTICLE may be a good place to start.
And after you look at that link, I suggest you check out the book "The New Evidence That Demands A Verdict" by Josh McDowell. "Blind faith" is a socially reinforced adjective used by you and yours to describe Christianity, which couldn't be further from the truth. Christianity is the most scientifically (yes, that's true) and historically reinforced religion in the world, so if I were you, I'd describe Christianity as anything other than blind, for that shows your true intellect. You have obviously resorted to the opinions of others, and have failed to independently study Christianity, specifically Jesus Christ. In my point of view, Atheism is just as blind of a faith as any other, and your 'holy book' is your biology text book, so get a grip. Stop acting like a child.
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RE: Genetically Modified Human Embryo - 5/17/2008 4:41:01 PM
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drj11
Posts: 632
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
quote:
drj11
Such blind faith is one of the most glaring character flaws possible in a human being
quote:
drmark
If you truly think Christianity is based on "blind faith", drj, then you know essentially nothing about Jesus Christ! Why don't you look into His claims instead of making wildly speculative insults about something you are so ignorant of? THIS ARTICLE may be a good place to start.
And after you look at that link, I suggest you check out the book "The New Evidence That Demands A Verdict" by Josh McDowell. "Blind faith" is a socially reinforced adjective used by you and yours to describe Christianity, which couldn't be further from the truth. Christianity is the most scientifically (yes, that's true) and historically reinforced religion in the world, so if I were you, I'd describe Christianity as anything other than blind, for that shows your true intellect. You have obviously resorted to the opinions of others, and have failed to independently study Christianity, specifically Jesus Christ. In my point of view, Atheism is just as blind of a faith as any other, and your 'holy book' is your biology text book, so get a grip. Stop acting like a child.
Any faith in a God is always blind, no matter how many religious texts say otherwise. You may have had some moving experience which caused you to feel "god's presence", but its still all totally subjective.. after the fact you choose to ascribe those feelings to god, arbitrarily. That is what I call blind faith. There is nothing that can scientifically support christianity, or any other religion, except corroboration of ancillary items... such as did joseph or jesus actually exist etc etc. The "blind faith" part comes in when you decide to say jesus is god.
As for those of you who are literalists, science most definitely does not support your version of Christianity, but actually shows us that much of it is blatantly false, to an extremely high degree of certainty.
Trust me, I was a student of Christianity for the first 20 years or so of my life... I know of what I speak. However, most religious people I encounter in my life gladly say they have blind faith in God/Jesus/Allah/whatever, and do so with an air of pride.
< Message edited by drj11 -- 5/17/2008 4:47:58 PM >
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RE: Genetically Modified Human Embryo - 5/17/2008 6:21:49 PM
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essentialsaltes
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10/14/2007
From: Inglewood, CA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Once again, es, you make all sorts of pronouncements without a shred of evidence to back them up!
Whatever do you mean? I said that the Koran itself testifies to its divine authorship. That's the same evidence generally used to support the Bible's divine authorship. But I agree with you; that is not even a shred of evidence.
quote:
This article demonstrates the unreliability of the Koran's prophesies, thus why should we believe it's alleged authorship? Care to try again?
There are just as many articles demonstrating the unreliability of the Bible's prophecies. Isaiah couldn't even get Jesus' name right.
It doesn't matter whether you have reconciled these errors in some way, Muslims have done the same for the Koran.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Genetically Modified Human Embryo - 5/17/2008 6:43:11 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 500
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quote:
The "blind faith" part comes in when you decide to say jesus is god.
The "blind faith" part comes in when you decide to say there is no God.
BTW, be respectful. It's "Jesus" and "God."
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RE: Genetically Modified Human Embryo - 5/17/2008 7:03:15 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 500
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quote:
Isaiah couldn't even get Jesus' name right.
Wow, for a second here, I thought I was debating with intellectual adults. Apparently I was wrong. How about we present unbiased information, giving the whole truth??? I mean, that does require some research, but I pray that isn't too much to ask.
http://www.gotquestions.org/Immanuel-Jesus.html
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RE: Genetically Modified Human Embryo - 5/17/2008 7:26:01 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Trust me, I was a student of Christianity for the first 20 years or so of my life... I know of what I speak. Yes, I was a "student of scientism" for the first 20+ years of my life, so I understand very well the blind faith it requires to believe the lie of godless naturalism. But no, I won't be trusting you or your religion, drj11!
quote:
BTW, be respectful. It's "Jesus" and "God." Merely another self-centered way to attempt to elevate one's position to that of God's.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Genetically Modified Human Embryo - 5/17/2008 8:14:45 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 500
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quote:
Yes, I was a "student of scientism" for the first 20+ years of my life, so I understand very well the blind faith it requires to believe the lie of godless naturalism. But no, I won't be trusting you or your religion, drj11!
LOL! Is it just me drmark, or does it seem like EVERY SINGLE non-Christian, specifically Atheist, that I have debated with claims decades upon decades of Christian experience? As this somehow gives their opinions and/or beliefs more credibility? Every non-Christian I debate with claims being a Christian at some point. It would seem as though the whole world was Christian at one point, since everyone claims they were. How laughable...
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RE: Genetically Modified Human Embryo - 5/17/2008 8:19:36 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 500
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quote:
Merely another self-centered way to attempt to elevate one's position to that of God's.
So true, but I could honestly care less what their prejudice is. I could care less if someone likes Him or not. That's something they will have to take up with the LORD! But the respect I deserve is the same respect Jesus and God deserves. Jesus was a person just like us, so let's give Him the same respect...that's all.
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RE: Genetically Modified Human Embryo - 5/17/2008 8:30:20 PM
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essentialsaltes
Posts: 1015
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From: Inglewood, CA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
quote:
Isaiah couldn't even get Jesus' name right.
Wow, for a second here, I thought I was debating with intellectual adults. Apparently I was wrong. How about we present unbiased information
Like drmark's information on the Koran?
quote:
I mean, that does require some research, but I pray that isn't too much to ask.
Yes, it does, and drmark has already said he's unwilling to do any in the case of the Koran. I've at least done more research on the Bible than he has on the Koran.
Look, I'm not arguing the superiority of the Koran over the Bible. I'm just saying that, there is nothing particularly unique about the Bible. From my position on the outside, I see the adherents of these two books (and others) each making similar claims about the divine authority and perfection of their chosen text.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Genetically Modified Human Embryo - 5/17/2008 9:32:33 PM
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drmark
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quote:
I'm just saying that, there is nothing particularly unique about the Bible. You know, es, I at least took the time and effort to find a scholarly article to support my position. As always, you make bombastic assertions which garner nothing but lower credibility ratings for any serious attempt on your part to engage in meaningful discussion. Find someone else to show off your unsubstantiated claims. I can listen to (and enjoy) my 4 yr-old grandson use his story-telling imagination in place of the time I spend digesting your unfounded opinions.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Genetically Modified Human Embryo - 5/17/2008 9:44:34 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 500
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YEEHAW this is fun! "Can you feel the love tonight?"
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RE: Genetically Modified Human Embryo - 5/18/2008 2:16:53 AM
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essentialsaltes
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10/14/2007
From: Inglewood, CA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Find someone else to show off your unsubstantiated claims.
Your spittle-flecked well-poisoning is noted.
It's hardly an unfounded position to state that, generally speaking:
A) Christians claim the Bible is divinely inspired.
B) Muslims claim the Koran is divinely inspired.
C) Non-Christians dispute A.
D) Non-Muslims dispute B.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Genetically Modified Human Embryo - 5/18/2008 11:24:48 PM
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Real_Solitude
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Play nice, children.
_____________________________
"Instead of feeling alone in a group its better to have real solitude all by yourself."
~Faye Valentine
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RE: Genetically Modified Human Embryo - 5/19/2008 8:03:22 AM
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drmark
Posts: 3265
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quote:
It's hardly an unfounded position to state that, generally speaking:
A) Christians claim the Bible is divinely inspired.
B) Muslims claim the Koran is divinely inspired.
C) Non-Christians dispute A.
D) Non-Muslims dispute B. And this is your "evidence" to support "there is nothing particularly unique about the Bible"? On the contrary, the Bible's uniqueness is incontrovertible evidence that it must be the divinely-inspired, inerrant, and authoritative Word of God! (Sorry if I got some spittle on your face the last time, es.)
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Genetically Modified Human Embryo - 5/20/2008 12:40:39 AM
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ponymt
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drmark,
While I can appreciate your passion and zeal for God’s word and truth, lets not forget that God does not need us to defend Him (1Cor. 1:20&21).
Allow me to put forth a few biblical principles for your consideration; Why at times, it may seem that your just not getting through - Jn.12: 37-40, 2 Cor.4: 4, and while I love a lively and stimulating debate, sometimes the best you can say is, well, nothing - Prov.26: 4&5, finally and perhaps more important in this forum, when were certain of what and when to answer - Eph. 4:15
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RE: Genetically Modified Human Embryo - 5/20/2008 1:04:15 AM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 500
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quote:
While I can appreciate your passion and zeal for God’s word and truth, lets not forget that God does not need us to defend Him
Its not defending Him, its preaching the Gospel.
The Bible tells us we need to be a witness for Him. Have you considered that perhaps the reason drmark, and I, debate with individuals on this site, who most likely will not accept our word, is not to convert them or change their mind? The reason I continue to debate with individuals whom I KNOW will not accept Jesus Christ is to give a sense of the Truth of our Savior Jesus Christ to those who read the threads with questions in their mind, yet don't necessarily post comments. Sometimes I engage in a debate not to prove the one I am debating with wrong, but to give an equal balance of truth. We as Christians need to spread the Good News of the Gospel, and the last thing we need to do is coward in a corner when an Atheist presents a good argument against our faith.
< Message edited by evry1needsgod -- 5/20/2008 1:11:03 AM >
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RE: Genetically Modified Human Embryo - 5/20/2008 2:12:56 AM
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ponymt
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evry1needsgod
Correct me if I’m wrong or if I misunderstood; you said, “it’s preaching the Gospel. The Bible tells us we need to be a witness for Him.” Then, in the very next sentence you say, “who most likely will not accept our word, is not to convert them or change their mind?"
Is that not a bit of a contradiction? Further more, when you say “The reason I continue to debate with individuals whom I KNOW will not accept Jesus Christ…” are you not elevating yourself to the deity status of being omniscient?
I’m sure this was not your intent however; I would encourage you to consider the way in which you are representing and presenting the Gospel. I whole heartily agree that “We as Christians Need to spread the Good News of the Gospel”, my point was the manor and spirit by which we share the Gospel (Eph. 4:15) in LOVE, not vitriol.
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RE: Genetically Modified Human Embryo - 5/20/2008 8:26:29 AM
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drmark
Posts: 3265
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quote:
While I can appreciate your passion and zeal for God’s word and truth quote:
my point was the manor and spirit by which we share the Gospel (Eph. 4:15) in LOVE, not vitriol. Point well taken, ponymt. There is a fine line between "passion/zeal" and "unloving vitriol". Given the nature of an electronic discussion board, there is a strong chance that some of my posts may be perceived to lean too far in the latter direction. I will reassess my approach in light of 1 Peter 3:15 and endeavor to apply more gentleness and respect where these qualities are due. Thanks for your concerns.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Genetically Modified Human Embryo - 5/20/2008 11:12:11 AM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 500
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quote:
Correct me if I’m wrong or if I misunderstood; you said, “it’s preaching the Gospel. The Bible tells us we need to be a witness for Him.” Then, in the very next sentence you say, “who most likely will not accept our word, is not to convert them or change their mind?"
No, its not a contradiction. What I was trying to say in my post is that sometimes I debate and/or argue not to help the person(s) of whom I'm debating with, but rather to help the invisible "innocent by standards" (lurkers) who have been reading the post. I was one of those "lurkers" for a while, and I'm more than happy to admit I was happy to see Christians standing up for whats right, and not hiding in a corner when an Atheist gets heated. The Bible says "Be ye angry, and sin not." Was it not Jesus himself who threw tables in a violent rage? I guarantee you He was pretty angry. I have every right to be a little perturbed when someone teaches heresy or slams my Savior Jesus Christ into the dirt. Jesus did not tell His followers to be sissys.
But I completely understand your concerns now. Christians are to love one another, and we should treat others with a spirit of love. But define love. Love does not mean being nice. It often requires forwardness and firmness. I apologize if you felt offended.
quote:
Is that not a bit of a contradiction? Further more, when you say “The reason I continue to debate with individuals whom I KNOW will not accept Jesus Christ…” are you not elevating yourself to the deity status of being omniscient?
No, absolutely not. I apologize for the misunderstanding. I believe you looked into that too much. When I said "I KNOW" I meant "most likely". Sorry about that.
quote:
I’m sure this was not your intent however; I would encourage you to consider the way in which you are representing and presenting the Gospel. I whole heartily agree that “We as Christians Need to spread the Good News of the Gospel”, my point was the manor and spirit by which we share the Gospel (Eph. 4:15) in LOVE, not vitriol.
Well, that's not the point I saw in your original post. I saw nothing that had to do with the spirit in which we share the Gospel in your first post except Eph 4:15. What I saw, with all do respect, was a hint of cowardice, and that bothered me. A few of those verses were used out of context, and some did not prove the points you were trying to make. But I understand now your concerns. Thanks for the insight.
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RE: Genetically Modified Human Embryo - 5/20/2008 3:50:00 PM
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Method
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So what is the consensus opinion (if there is one) among theists as it relates to genetically modified embryos? This would be more ID on top of ID, right? Or are you against it because we are not as good at designing as the original designer? Where do you guys sit on this one?
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RE: Genetically Modified Human Embryo - 5/20/2008 4:31:52 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7397
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
So what is the consensus opinion (if there is one) among theists as it relates to genetically modified embryos? This would be more ID on top of ID, right? Or are you against it because we are not as good at designing as the original designer? Where do you guys sit on this one?
It's not a matter of 'ID' (a design itself can have good or bad effects), it's a matter of what humans are and whether there exists an objectively applicable morality.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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