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RE: The Arts in the Church - 5/13/2008 3:16:25 PM
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lw9
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quote:
wintery: I agree that we are all in full-time ministry but not in offices of ministry or authority strictly because of a talent or ability. God must really be in charge of promoting spiritually, not the coolest guitar player etc. who can indeed become an "idol".
Exactly. We are all to preach the gospel, but not everyone is called by the Lord to be pastor, elder, teacher, etc.. Those are specific callings and specific offices within the church, and they cannot be added to at will.
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In elevating a person with an arts talent, that is, music, acting, dancing, painting or whatever to a gift, it follows that that activity is their _ministry_ and that they are a minister--and tragic it is when someone is elevated because of their talent while their spiritual maturity has not reached the level of being a minister.
That's what I see as well, and I don't believe this is a good direction for the person or for the church.
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RE: The Arts in the Church - 5/13/2008 3:37:01 PM
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gengwall
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
quote:
In elevating a person with an arts talent, that is, music, acting, dancing, painting or whatever to a gift, it follows that that activity is their _ministry_ and that they are a minister--and tragic it is when someone is elevated because of their talent while their spiritual maturity has not reached the level of being a minister.
That's what I see as well, and I don't believe this is a good direction for the person or for the church.
The arts are a mode for expressing gifts and accomplishing ministry. Guitar playing may not be a spiritual gift, but it may be an effective mode and complimentary pratical gift to the very real gifts of eangelism, teaching, preaching, etc. Many people teach through books, which is an artistic expression. Many do the same through song, dance, poetry, and visual arts. Do people not recognize that the psalms and Song of Solomon are primarily artistic expressions? The parables "come to life" because of the artistry in their telling. Preachers have to hone the "art" of public speaking in order to be effective. It makes no sense to separate the pratical gifts from the spiritual ones when they compliment each other in such a clearly intentional way.
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RE: The Arts in the Church - 5/13/2008 3:41:33 PM
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wintery
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gengwall
quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
quote:
In elevating a person with an arts talent, that is, music, acting, dancing, painting or whatever to a gift, it follows that that activity is their _ministry_ and that they are a minister--and tragic it is when someone is elevated because of their talent while their spiritual maturity has not reached the level of being a minister.
That's what I see as well, and I don't believe this is a good direction for the person or for the church.
The arts are a mode for expressing gifts and accomplishing ministry. Guitar playing may not be a spiritual gift, but it may be an effective mode and complimentary pratical gift to the very real gifts of eangelism, teaching, preaching, etc. Many people teach through books, which is an artistic expression. Many do the same through song, dance, poetry, and visual arts. Do people not recognize that the psalms and Song of Solomon are primarily artistic expressions? The parables "come to life" because of the artistry in their telling. Preachers have to hone the "art" of public speaking in order to be effective. It makes no sense to separate the pratical gifts from the spiritual ones when they compliment each other in such a clearly intentional way.
I'd just rather say ministers can use talents with their gifting than that their talent _is_ their ministry and gifting.
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RE: The Arts in the Church - 5/13/2008 3:48:55 PM
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gengwall
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
I'd just rather say ministers can use talents with their gifting than that their talent _is_ their ministry and gifting.
But if a person's guitar playing edyfies the body by bringing about spiritual growth or supporting spiritual gifts, then their ministry is accomplished via their guitar playing. To say that guitar playing isn't their ministry may be technical true on some obtuse symantical level, but it is hardly worth arguing over. More importantly, it is counterproductive to treat such gifts or "ministries" as second class in the grand scheme of "doing Church".
BTW - I assume we are restricting spiritual gifts to only NT lists since craftsmanship and artistry were clearly "gifts" from God in the OT. Are we so sure such a restriction is warranted?
< Message edited by gengwall -- 5/13/2008 3:56:08 PM >
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RE: The Arts in the Church - 5/13/2008 4:05:31 PM
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wintery
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gengwall
quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
I'd just rather say ministers can use talents with their gifting than that their talent _is_ their ministry and gifting.
But if a person's guitar playing edyfies the body by bringing about spiritual growth or supporting spiritual gifts, then their ministry is accomplished via their guitar playing. To say that guitar playing isn't their ministry may be technical true on some obtuse symantical level, but it is hardly worth arguing over. More importantly, it is counterproductive to treat such gifts or "ministries" as second class in the grand scheme of "doing Church".
BTW - I assume we are restricting spiritual gifts to only NT lists since craftsmanship and artistry were clearly "gifts" from God in the OT. Are we so sure such a restriction is warranted?
Yes, talents are given by God but are not spiritual gifts. They fall in the category of "And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;" (Colossians 3:23)
and are more like tools than gifts.
The discussion falls in line with the OP and the place of the arts in church.
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RE: The Arts in the Church - 5/13/2008 4:16:45 PM
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gengwall
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
quote:
ORIGINAL: gengwall
quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
I'd just rather say ministers can use talents with their gifting than that their talent _is_ their ministry and gifting.
But if a person's guitar playing edyfies the body by bringing about spiritual growth or supporting spiritual gifts, then their ministry is accomplished via their guitar playing. To say that guitar playing isn't their ministry may be technical true on some obtuse symantical level, but it is hardly worth arguing over. More importantly, it is counterproductive to treat such gifts or "ministries" as second class in the grand scheme of "doing Church".
BTW - I assume we are restricting spiritual gifts to only NT lists since craftsmanship and artistry were clearly "gifts" from God in the OT. Are we so sure such a restriction is warranted?
Yes, talents are given by God but are not spiritual gifts. They fall in the category of "And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;" (Colossians 3:23)
and are more like tools than gifts.
The discussion falls in line with the OP and the place of the arts in church.
I have no problem viewing them as tools for the support of gifts and ministry, but I see little sense in dismissing the tool when discussing the gifts or the ministry. It all is symantical gobblty-gook to me. I have no problem with a person who says "guitar playing is my gift and my ministry." I know that he knows that guitar playing itself isn't a defined spiritual gift, but it is a gift none-the-less, given by God, which is how his categorical gift of service or exhortation or teaching or whatever is manifested. That makes it part and parcel of the spiritual gift. Also, as such, it is a component of a grander "official" ministry of the church and comprises his personal ministerial contribution to that grander whole. It is, in essence, HIS ministry to the church (his way of edyfying the body, which is what gifts are given for). I am not sure why people are so resistant to this concession in definitions.
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RE: The Arts in the Church - 5/13/2008 4:22:05 PM
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gengwall
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Remember, again, that if one does not dogmatically limit spiritual gifts to the set lists given but instead recognizes that any gift from God that fulfills the purpose of gifts, namely edyfying and serving the body, is indeed a spiritual gift and a ministry, then hymns, writing, craftsmanship, visual artistry, and many other forms of artistic expression are expressly included in scripture. Only the strict list mentality excludes the arts from the spiritual gift inventory; God's word does not.
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RE: The Arts in the Church - 5/13/2008 4:42:40 PM
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lw9
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quote:
gengwall: More importantly, it is counterproductive to treat such gifts or "ministries" as second class in the grand scheme of "doing Church".
I would say it's a mistake to elevate talents beyond what they are and causes confusion between gifts, talents, and ministries.
quote:
BTW - I assume we are restricting spiritual gifts to only NT lists since craftsmanship and artistry were clearly "gifts" from God in the OT. Are we so sure such a restriction is warranted?
quote:
Only the strict list mentality excludes the arts from the spiritual gift inventory; God's word does not.
God's word has already laid out what is a gift of the Holy Spirit. If we don't adhere to the Biblical description of true spiritual gifts, then we get into territories where anything and everything become a 'gift' and is therefore given a stamp of approval and is embraced, such as 'clucking like a chicken in the spirit' or 'drunk in the spirit'. That is some seriously dangerous territory. We either stick with what scripture says on this point, or we are going to have to stamp everything as a gift so no one feels left out.
< Message edited by lw9 -- 5/13/2008 4:59:21 PM >
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RE: The Arts in the Church - 5/13/2008 4:48:45 PM
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colliefan
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Anything can become an idol. How we "do" church or study the bible can become an idol. Anything that we placo above God is idolatrous. The arts should draw people towards God. Good bible teaching/preaching should draw people towards God. A winsome lifestyle should draw people towards God. Good music should draw people towards God. These things are merely tools. It is how we use them that makes a difference.
Our current pastor studied acting before being drawn into the ministry. He is good at both. In one of his more memorable sermons, he acted out the Sermon on the Mount,
We are visual people and we need tangible reminders of Spiritual Truths. Imagine the repsonse of a good movie series based on the lives of the Patriarchs. I am not talking about a low budget TBN like movie, but one that had the quality of "The Passion of the Christ" or "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe."
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RE: The Arts in the Church - 5/13/2008 4:55:49 PM
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gengwall
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
I would say it's a mistake to elevate talents beyond what they are and causes confusion between gifts, talents, and ministries.
And how is saying "my ministry is guitar playing" elevating it beyond what it is or causing confusion? It seems humble and simple enough to me.
quote:
If we don't adhere to the Biblical description of true spiritual gifts, then we get into territories where anything and everything become a 'gift' and is therefore given a stamp of approval and is embraced, such as 'clucking like a chicken in the spirit' or 'drunk in the spirit'. That is some seriously dangerous territory.
So you contend then that the lists are the only descriptors of spiritual gifts and ANYTHING else mentioned in the bible that is declared to edify the body or is a gift from God does not count as a "spiritual" gift? I wonder if God feels that way about the gifts he has declared to be edifying but do not "make the list".
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RE: The Arts in the Church - 5/13/2008 5:08:11 PM
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colliefan
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And how is this idolatry?
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RE: The Arts in the Church - 5/13/2008 5:10:33 PM
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lw9
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quote:
gengwall: So you contend then that the lists are the only descriptors of spiritual gifts and ANYTHING else mentioned in the bible that is declared to edify the body or is a gift from God does not count as a "spiritual" gift?
Straight up: If I have a talent for clucking like a chicken and someone claims to be edified through my clucking, does that make my clucking a gift of the Holy Spirit? I'm asking seriously because this is a real issue the church faces today.
I contend that what the Bible specifies and lays out as a gift of the Holy Spirit is indeed a gift of the Holy Spirit, and it should be left at that. If there were more gifts, they would be spelled out as well. This is what I was talking about earlier when I said the lines were being blurred between valid Biblical gifts and talents. There is a difference between the two and one should not be confused with the other.
If someone has the spiritual gift of teaching, they may aid their teaching through a talent, but that does not make the talent itself a spiritual gift and it doesn't mean that talent should be the center of a ministry.
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RE: The Arts in the Church - 5/13/2008 5:12:47 PM
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gengwall
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I wonder how you "listies" contend with these verses:
1 Corinthians 14:26 What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church.
Both the composing and performing of hymns are equally required and given the same priority as the spiritual gifts of teaching, prophecy, and tongues. How are composing and singing not also spiritual gifts and ministries? Is worship not a valid ministry? If it is, then how are the gifts necessary to create a worshipful environment not spiritual gifts?
Colossians 3:16 - Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God.
Again, composing and singing are elevated to the same level and are part of the indwelling of the Word to the same degree as teaching, exhortation, and wisdom.
< Message edited by gengwall -- 5/13/2008 5:40:50 PM >
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RE: The Arts in the Church - 5/13/2008 5:16:27 PM
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gengwall
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
Straight up: If I have a talent for clucking like a chicken and someone claims to be edified through my clucking, does that make my clucking a gift of the Holy Spirit?
Yes! It would be a gift of tongues (presuming there was an interpreter and you believe tongues is still a valid gift).
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RE: The Arts in the Church - 5/13/2008 5:26:48 PM
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CatholicCritter
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Christian art is in a sorry state for many reasons. First, art is inextricably linked to culture, so in a microwave culture, you get microwave art. I mean, Dante, Michelangelo, et al probably didn't consider themselves 'Catholic artists' but rather artists whose work was enlightened by their faith. Second, artists today seem to be striving for 'different' and 'hip' rather than that which is good, and true, and beautiful. Couple that with their honorable desire to evangelize through their work and we so we often see a shallow copy of secular culture. Third, the Church used to patronize artists. This is all but gone nowadays. When a church needs artwork, it usually turns it over to a steering committee who tries to allay the cost above all else. When the great cathedrals were being built, cost was the last factor and beauty, reverence, and honor to God were paramount. Finally, Christianity has largerly become iconoclastic. We carry the fear of being accused of idolatry (because we so often are, albeit incorrectly) and so our creativity is stifled be it in worship or in other elements of our faith life.
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RE: The Arts in the Church - 5/13/2008 5:38:10 PM
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lw9
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quote:
lw9: Straight up: If I have a talent for clucking like a chicken and someone claims to be edified through my clucking, does that make my clucking a gift of the Holy Spirit?
quote:
gengwall: Yes! It would be a gift of tongues (presuming there was an interpreter and you believe tongues is still a valid gift).
Which leads me to my next question: Are you kidding or are you serious?
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RE: The Arts in the Church - 5/13/2008 5:45:55 PM
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gengwall
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
quote:
lw9: Straight up: If I have a talent for clucking like a chicken and someone claims to be edified through my clucking, does that make my clucking a gift of the Holy Spirit?
quote:
gengwall: Yes! It would be a gift of tongues (presuming there was an interpreter and you believe tongues is still a valid gift).
Which leads me to my next question: Are you kidding or are you serious?
Well, first of all, you picked a bad illustration. Clucking like a chicken could indeed be a gift of tongues as long as it fulfilled the parameters set out in scripture for tongues to be valid. So, I was serious about that example. Unless God has intimated to you some phonetic key to tongues that is unbeknownst to the rest of mankind and that excludes chicken clucking sounds, how can you claim that chicken clucking can't be a tongue?
But let's say instead your example had been pecking at the ground like a chicken. Well, then I would have a harder time manipulating a correlation with gifts. For starters, pecking at the ground like a chicken in and of itself isn't really a "skill", nor does it have any tangible benefit to the body that I can think of. But, let's say for example sake, that for some reason the pecking collected pebbles of a certain kind that could only be obtained by chicken pecking means, and those pebbles in turn were essential to, say, the laying of the foundation to the church. Then I suppose chicken pecking would be a manifestation of the gift of service.
You seem to want to separate the manifestation of the gift from the gift itself and then arbitrarily claim no value to just certain manifestations. I don't think gifts work like that.
< Message edited by gengwall -- 5/13/2008 6:07:31 PM >
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RE: The Arts in the Church - 5/13/2008 6:37:14 PM
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lw9
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quote:
gengwall: Clucking like a chicken could indeed be a gift of tongues as long as it fulfilled the parameters set out in scripture for tongues to be valid. So, I was serious about that example. Unless God has intimated to you some phonetic key to tongues that is unbeknownst to the rest of mankind and that excludes chicken clucking sounds, how can you claim that chicken clucking can't be a tongue?
But, let's say for example sake, that for some reason the pecking collected pebbles of a certain kind that could only be obtained by chicken pecking means, and those pebbles in turn were essential to, say, the laying of the foundation to the church. Then I suppose chicken pecking would be a manifestation of the gift of service.
So... anything goes.
You are doing the case for talent as 'spiritual gifts' no favors. Your response lacks Biblical support and only emphasizes the point further that this is exactly what happens when people ignore the true Biblical spiritual gifts, add 'gifts' that are not there, and elevate talent. If you can't discern through scripture that clucking or pecking like a chicken is not a gift of the Holy Spirit, how will you discern anything that comes your way? What you've presented is confusion, not proof.
I can't change your mind, but I can hope that others might be warned away from this path.
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RE: The Arts in the Church - 5/13/2008 7:34:29 PM
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colliefan
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Ex 31:1 - 11 (ESV) 1The Lord said to Moses, 2“See, I have called by name Bezalel the son of Uri, son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, 3and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with ability and intelligence, with knowledge and all craftsmanship, 4to devise artistic designs, to work in gold, silver, and bronze, 5in cutting stones for setting, and in carving wood, to work in every craft. 6And behold, I have appointed with him Oholiab, the son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan. And I have given to all able men ability, that they may make all that I have commanded you: 7the tent of meeting, and the ark of the testimony, and the mercy seat that is on it, and all the furnishings of the tent, 8the table and its utensils, and the pure lampstand with all its utensils, and the altar of incense, 9and the altar of burnt offering with all its utensils, and the basin and its stand, 10and the finely worked garments,£ the holy garments for Aaron the priest and the garments of his sons, for their service as priests, 11and the anointing oil and the fragrant incense for the Holy Place. According to all that I have commanded you, they shall do.”
Ex 35:30 - 35 (ESV) 30Then Moses said to the people of Israel, “See, the Lord has called by name Bezalel the son of Uri, son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah; 31and he has filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, with intelligence, with knowledge, and with all craftsmanship, 32to devise artistic designs, to work in gold and silver and bronze, 33in cutting stones for setting, and in carving wood, for work in every skilled craft. 34And he has inspired him to teach, both him and Oholiab the son of Ahisamach of the tribe of Dan. 35He has filled them with skill to do every sort of work done by an engraver or by a designer or by an embroiderer in blue and purple and scarlet yarns and fine twined linen, or by a weaver—by any sort of workman or skilled designer.
If God used artists and craftsman in OT days, why not in the church?
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RE: The Arts in the Church - 5/13/2008 7:40:34 PM
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techne
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save yourself some time -- or make things more convoluted -- some of these things were covered here.
though it's nice to see such lively discussion about the arts...
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Only beauty will call to them and save them
So that they still know how to say: this is true and that is false.
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RE: The Arts in the Church - 5/14/2008 1:52:50 AM
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techne
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: techne
so how did they function within the life of the body? and by "foundational groups" do you mean small groups (or discipleship groups) that were geared towards artists?
The pastors/elders supported them by allowing them to do specials, provide them the church building, etc for anything they needed, for counsel, etc...
it's just my opinion, but "specials" and the use of space in the building does not - to me - indicate that they function as part of the life of the body i.e. woven into the fabric. how did the artists contribute to missional living and service ("ministry") -- or perhaps explain what exactly "foundational groups" means...it also sounds like you mean musicians/ singers as opposed to the full gamut of creative activity.
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ORIGINAL: earthless
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ORIGINAL: techne
names, please, names.  and describe some of the things they did.
Renee Gonzalez, Salvador, Sixpence none the Richer, Caravan 2:11, The Saturn Project, Luis Santoyo, a lot of other recording artists.
right.
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ORIGINAL: earthless
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ORIGINAL: techne
further, since this happened at a church where you served, how did you understand the arts functioning and contributing to your tasks,
It's a great method of worship to God and for conveying His message to many. We were an inner-city church that surely did dream big.
examples? concrete examples?
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ORIGINAL: earthless
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ORIGINAL: techne
and what was the general view of the rest of the ministerial team?
The whole church was for it and many of the recording artists were part of our worship teams, etc.. So it worked out.
so the recording artists were embraced? what about other expressions of the arts?
_____________________________
And when people cease to believe that there is good and evil
Only beauty will call to them and save them
So that they still know how to say: this is true and that is false.
One more day by Czeslaw Milosz
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RE: The Arts in the Church - 5/14/2008 2:08:50 AM
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techne
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ORIGINAL: lw9
As a graphic designer and a graduate of the fine arts, I can give you my perspective on visual arts within the church, but you may not like it! 
do tell...
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ORIGINAL: lw9
I'm not saying the following applies to you because I don't know enough about what it is you are trying to do within your church, but this is just a general observation, so I hope you take it as such.
i guess it all depends on the circles you frequent...
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ORIGINAL: lw9
I see too many churches putting a strange new emphasis on visual arts, icons, and being 'creative' these days. It's almost like the arts and artists are being elevated in a way, and I feel like we're rolling the clock back to the days of 'sacred art' and potential idol worship. I find this trend very worrisome. I didn't realize that worship had to become this man-made creative thing with bells and whistles to be valid. In reading about the Biblical early church, they learned together, they worshiped together, they sang together. There was no mention of 'creative services' or special accomodations made for 'creative people'.
there are several points i'd like to address here. perhaps it's not so much a 'strange new emphasis' as a reclaiming and renewal. there have always been times of renewed focus on specific aspects of church life, and the renewal and reclamation of the arts might just be one of those things that the holy spirit is breathing into the church. the fact that people may take things too far is actually secondary, though still a valid concern.
from the very beginning worship has involved creativity - witness the tabernacle, the temple. how about the psalms? the fact that there were no mentions of 'creative services' doesn't mean anything -- perhaps there was always creativity so it was assumed that it was part of gatherings and therefore there was no need to mention anything. arguing from absence is not a particularly useful way to engage in discussion...i also don't think there should be any 'special accomodations' for creative types. the arts should simply be part of all aspects of church life. because they can be.
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ORIGINAL: lw9
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I have watched as creative people sit in the pew, week after week....they look as though they are longing for more, or wondering where they fit in.
Please don't count me in their number. God and His word are all I need. I'm a member of the Body of Christ, so I don't need to prove my identity or wonder where I fit in. A talent is not a spiritual gift, and it shouldn't be looked on as such.
true. true. but then i also don't fault the desire of artists to use their talents in service to the body. i'd rather they use their abilities to serve others than simply retreat into self-expression.
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ORIGINAL: lw9
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We have artists among us....very few of them have a venue to express their God-given talent.
I can express myself perfectly well in church through prayer, worship, and singing hymns. Yes, I know... some may think I'm really boring!  But I really believe that if we continue to focus on this growing trend of man-made visual arts and creativity, we're going to be leading ourselves back into bondage to these things. God gave us talents, but He also gave us commands, and one of those commands regards idolatry.
which actually has nothing [specifically] to do with the arts...idolatry is a heart condition, not an eye condition.
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ORIGINAL: lw9
Deut 5:8 You shall not make for yourself an idol [graven image] in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 9 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
1Jn 5:21 Little children, guard yourselves from idols.
emphasis mine. images aren't the issue, hearts are. focus is. what we worship.
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ORIGINAL: lw9
As humans, we can so easily fall into idolatry, so we have to be very careful and discerning in what we create. God warns us about this for a reason, and places like the Vatican serve as a prime example of why we shouldn't be creating images or getting creative in that manner within the church.
again, images aren't the issue.
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ORIGINAL: lw9
As for me, I appreciate that God gave me a talent, but that doesn't mean that I need to be creative and explore my talents during worship. To me, that would be a self-centered thing rather than a God-centered thing. If my church needed help with something like their website, I would be happy to help but it would neither add to or take away from who I am as a Christian.
right. i agree. but couldn't others express themselves that way? aren't we free to do so?
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ORIGINAL: lw9
A talent isn't a gift of the Holy Spirit, but it seems like some are making them to be one and the same these days and elevating talents to that level, and that's a dangerous thing. I'm not saying you are confusing the two, Hephzibah, but it's just a trend I see lately.
you're right, of course. but talents can be annointed for G-d's purposes.
_____________________________
And when people cease to believe that there is good and evil
Only beauty will call to them and save them
So that they still know how to say: this is true and that is false.
One more day by Czeslaw Milosz
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RE: The Arts in the Church - 5/14/2008 2:19:03 AM
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techne
Posts: 562
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: lw9
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JimboFletch: I sincerely cannot fathom how using visual arts in achurch could possibly lead any believer to worship an image.
Really? You've never ever seen people kissing statues and bowing to images?? Because we are sinful human beings, we are prone to idolatry, as can be seen over and over in Biblical history. My point was that we should be very careful to guard ourselves against idolatry within the church by not creating things - such as images and statues - that could potentially become 'sacred' and worshipped. Idolatry is alive and well in many churches today.
absolutely -- and yet G-d gave plans for images and sculptures in exodus (tabernacle, brazen serpent)...even while knowing there would be abuses (ab-normal uses) of those things (golden calf, the serpent becoming an idol by gideon's time). again, idolatry is about "images" we create in our hearts and minds that re-place G-d.
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ORIGINAL: lw9
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