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RE: The Arts in the Church - 5/14/2008 2:25:30 AM
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techne
Posts: 537
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gengwall
The arts may not function well replacing church functions such as worship, teaching, and fellowship, but they certainly enhance and illuminate those functions. Anything that opens the heart and mind to God's word is edifying and beneficial, including a point driving drama, a heart wrenching song, a soul stirring dance, or a thought provoking image.
i think this is a very important point: art must be allowed to function as art. the important and wonderful thing about art is its parabolic (as in parable) character, its allusiveness (to paraphrase seerveld). it's sideways, indirect, questioning, open. it can't (and shouldn't) replace other activities of the body such as preaching the word, but it can add to those activities and enrich them.
_____________________________
And when people cease to believe that there is good and evil
Only beauty will call to them and save them
So that they still know how to say: this is true and that is false.
One more day by Czeslaw Milosz
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RE: The Arts in the Church - 5/14/2008 2:35:25 AM
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techne
Posts: 537
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CatholicCritter
Christian art is in a sorry state for many reasons. First, art is inextricably linked to culture, so in a microwave culture, you get microwave art. I mean, Dante, Michelangelo, et al probably didn't consider themselves 'Catholic artists' but rather artists whose work was enlightened by their faith.
so, for artists willing to walk out their 'calling', or develop their skills - the issue is one of training and investment of time. as c. s. lewis said: "what we need is not more 'christian artists, but artists who are christian." a crucial difference, i think.
quote:
ORIGINAL: CatholicCritter
Second, artists today seem to be striving for 'different' and 'hip' rather than that which is good, and true, and beautiful. Couple that with their honorable desire to evangelize through their work and we so we often see a shallow copy of secular culture.
agreed (though i would quibble with 'evangelizing through their work' as i think people are still the best (perhaps only?) method. as st. francis said, "share the gospel. if necessary, use words".
quote:
ORIGINAL: CatholicCritter
Third, the Church used to patronize artists. This is all but gone nowadays. When a church needs artwork, it usually turns it over to a steering committee who tries to allay the cost above all else. When the great cathedrals were being built, cost was the last factor and beauty, reverence, and honor to God were paramount.
there are still patrons. but i don't think that artists are entitled to support. excellence should be supported (and perhaps even "potential"). but then, i also think that a committed disciple of christ pursuing the arts as a vocation/ calling/ expression of their service to christ and the body is as worthy of financial support as someone going to bible college to become a pastor.
quote:
ORIGINAL: CatholicCritter
Finally, Christianity has largerly become iconoclastic. We carry the fear of being accused of idolatry (because we so often are, albeit incorrectly) and so our creativity is stifled be it in worship or in other elements of our faith life.
this is certainly true of some streams of christianity, though not, by any means, all (or perhaps even most). we do have a somewhat western bias on these here forums...
< Message edited by techne -- 5/14/2008 11:22:07 AM >
_____________________________
And when people cease to believe that there is good and evil
Only beauty will call to them and save them
So that they still know how to say: this is true and that is false.
One more day by Czeslaw Milosz
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RE: The Arts in the Church - 5/14/2008 10:35:38 AM
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gengwall
Posts: 213
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From: MN
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
quote:
gengwall: Clucking like a chicken could indeed be a gift of tongues as long as it fulfilled the parameters set out in scripture for tongues to be valid. So, I was serious about that example. Unless God has intimated to you some phonetic key to tongues that is unbeknownst to the rest of mankind and that excludes chicken clucking sounds, how can you claim that chicken clucking can't be a tongue?
But, let's say for example sake, that for some reason the pecking collected pebbles of a certain kind that could only be obtained by chicken pecking means, and those pebbles in turn were essential to, say, the laying of the foundation to the church. Then I suppose chicken pecking would be a manifestation of the gift of service.
So... anything goes.
You are doing the case for talent as 'spiritual gifts' no favors. Your response lacks Biblical support and only emphasizes the point further that this is exactly what happens when people ignore the true Biblical spiritual gifts, add 'gifts' that are not there, and elevate talent. If you can't discern through scripture that clucking or pecking like a chicken is not a gift of the Holy Spirit, how will you discern anything that comes your way? What you've presented is confusion, not proof.
I can't change your mind, but I can hope that others might be warned away from this path.
And you seem to want to put the Spirit into a nice tidy box where He can only manifest His gifts in people through ways you approve of. Again, my emphasis is on how the gifts are manifested, not on what the gifts actually are. I don't have a problem recognizing that tongues is a spiritual gift. You do seem to have a problem with certain ways that tongues might be mainfested. Who here is presenting an unbiblical view of the gift of tongues?
BTW - nice duck. Instead of directly addressing the scripture I brought to your attention, you accuse me of being unscriptural. It is in fact your view that has no biblical support, for the bible nowhere sets out a specific list of ways in which the gifts of the Spirit must be manifested.
The bottom line in this discussion is that people are getting WAY too hung up on semantics. If someone said to me "I have the gift of chicken clucking" I would understand that he meant his gift of tongues is manifested through chicken clucking sounds. Even if I didn't get that, it could easily be cleared up with a few questions.
Guitar playing is clearly a manifestation of the gift of service (if used to that end). Acting and dance are clearly manifestations of the gifts of teaching and exhortation (and possibly others). Writing is clearly the gift of, well, many inventories I have read include writing truth as a gift. Visual arts potentially reflect a number of gifts in the way that they can move people. Tracing the declared gift and ministry back to the biblical inventory is not very hard and hardly requires the scorn and accusations being leveled here just because someone might say "my gift and ministry is 'X'", with 'X' being something not in the hard and fast list. They are not attempting to "make up" or "elevate" something over "true" gifts or in any other way undermine the Spirit. But deriding them for their possibly poor choice of words can cause serious damage to their expression of those true gifts they have been given. Some people need to get off of their literal, legalistic high horses and see that not only can gifts be manifested in many ways, those manifestations are an integral component of the gift itself and perfectly legitimate in describing a person's giftedness in their own personal way.
BTW - my gifts and ministries are dramatic arts (mostly writing with a little acting and directing thrown in) and technical arts (mostly audio). Those talents, if you insist, are never-the-less a gift from God to me and, when expressed in ministry, they serve and edify the body, making them spiritual gifts. If you insist on me tying those back to some hard and fast list, I am happy to oblidge - the major core gifts that these are manifestations of are teaching, service, and exhortation, with a minor in leadership (in regards to directing) and hospitality (when used in a fellowship context). But it doesn't change the fact that the way I minister to people is through the gifts of dramatic and technical arts. There is nothing unbilical or insulting to the Spirit in my expressing it this way.
< Message edited by gengwall -- 5/14/2008 11:20:05 AM >
_____________________________
DOGBERRY on posters:
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moreover, they have spoken untruths;
secondarily, they are slanders;
sixth and lastly, they have belied;
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RE: The Arts in the Church - 5/14/2008 11:13:06 AM
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wintery
Posts: 1245
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gengwall
If someone said to me "I have the gift of chicken clucking" I would understand that he meant his gift of tongues is manifested through chicken clucking sounds.
quote:
ORIGINAL: gengwall
Guitar playing is clearly a manifestation of the gift of service (if used to that end).
Christian guitarist Will McFarlane can play guitar and cluck like a chicken simultaneously. So, I give up.
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RE: The Arts in the Church - 5/14/2008 11:42:38 AM
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GroupW
Posts: 1979
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
Hello GroupW:
quote:
I think Kern's point is that the Eph 4 list (as well as the majority of Paul's other lists) isn't necessarily intended to be exhaustive. There would seem to be room for giftedness of a variety of types and a variety of avenues for giftedness to be manifested.
I'm not trying to be difficult, but should we start ordaining painters, sculptors, and woodworkers? I don't see that Eph 4:11 or any of the other descriptions of church leadership leaves room to start adding new positions based on talent. Eph 4:11 and other passages clearly state the positions within the church as intended and as called. Let's not add to it.
Talents have their place inside and outside the church. They allow us to earn a living and help the church out, but it just seems like some talents in particular like artistic talents are being elevated to a special new place within the church, and that is what I'm concerned about.
quote:
And are we positive that talents and gifts aren't closely related? I'm not so sure. The bible isn't quite this specific on the issue as near as I can tell.
If someone has a particular talent for spitting long distances [hey... some do!!], we probably wouldn't confuse that with a spiritual gift, but somehow with other talents the line become blurred when it really shouldn't be. The Bible clearly lists the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and that's what we need to stick with.
Good questions and you're not being difficult. Expressing opinions doesn't bother me at all.
When we speak of "ordination" we're typically speaking about teaching and leadership roles, so I think the first part of your post is a bit of a red herring - artistic roles while useful aren't teaching in a didactic sense, so ordination would be somewhat out of place. I think the rest of the examples you provide would be covered under Paul's "usefulness" rule that he provides for speaking in tongues - basically if it doesn't edify in some fashion, then it's probably out of place in the church. Many talents (long distance spitting for example) aren't particularly edifying, so I think we can safely exclude these as appropriate for the church body. The arts, however, can certainly point to God in a very unique way and thus would seem to me to have their place.
Hymns are an art form, and we deem them acceptable. Is that the ONLY art form we find acceptable within a church or are their others? Are Paul's lists of spiritual gifts exhaustive and complete, or are there others? These are matters of opinion and clearly non-essential to the faith so I think it's appropriate for each Christian and church body to make their own assessments. To me, churches and Christians that exclude these forms unnecessarily restrict the means in which they are willing to listen to the voice of God. Since I'm horrendously untalented in any recognizable art form, the arts are not a particularly effective way to communicate truth to me. My wife the musician however is quite different from me and responds to the fine arts quite strongly.
The body is composed of many parts with many function. When it comes to the fine arts, I am the body's big toe and my wife is the ear & mind. The two of us require quite different communication methods within the church to be reached effectively. My wife really thirsts for an artistic representation of truth via the arts, while I'm generally happy with a bath now and then.
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RE: The Arts in the Church - 5/14/2008 2:56:39 PM
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JesKlu
Posts: 544
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
quote:
gengwall: Clucking like a chicken could indeed be a gift of tongues as long as it fulfilled the parameters set out in scripture for tongues to be valid. So, I was serious about that example. Unless God has intimated to you some phonetic key to tongues that is unbeknownst to the rest of mankind and that excludes chicken clucking sounds, how can you claim that chicken clucking can't be a tongue?
But, let's say for example sake, that for some reason the pecking collected pebbles of a certain kind that could only be obtained by chicken pecking means, and those pebbles in turn were essential to, say, the laying of the foundation to the church. Then I suppose chicken pecking would be a manifestation of the gift of service.
So... anything goes.
You are doing the case for talent as 'spiritual gifts' no favors. Your response lacks Biblical support and only emphasizes the point further that this is exactly what happens when people ignore the true Biblical spiritual gifts, add 'gifts' that are not there, and elevate talent. If you can't discern through scripture that clucking or pecking like a chicken is not a gift of the Holy Spirit, how will you discern anything that comes your way? What you've presented is confusion, not proof.
I can't change your mind, but I can hope that others might be warned away from this path.
Hello lw9!
I understand your concern about art in the church. But my church has a little stained glass and a plain cross abover the altar, and also has a processional crucifix which the Acolytes carry.
Is that a sin?
Some really old lutheran churches also have a statue of the Risen Jesus above some of their altars. But does that mean they bow down and worship the statue or piece of art? No.
Some may be prone to idol worship when it comes to the use of art, but not all are. Some people can just look at a picture of Jesus and that's the farthest it goes. No bowing, no kissing, no any of that stuff that is so common in Catholicism.
Also, about artsy talents not being spiritual gifts, I agree. They are not listed. But what about Christians who don't have any of the listed gifts that are in scripture? What are you to tell them? That they do not have a gift from God?
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: The Arts in the Church - 5/14/2008 3:23:08 PM
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benelchi
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While I understand the legitimacy of the debate about whether artistic ability is a true spiritual gift, I don't understand the difficulty of understanding that an artist can express their spiritual gift through their art. It is no different than believing that a great orator is able to express their spiritual gift through preaching. A good friend of mine is a Christian artist who I believe expresses his spiritual gifts best through his art. His art has touched the hearts of many people, and allowed him to share the Gospel message in many places that would typically turn a deaf ear. His art can be seen at art.netronix.com
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RE: The Arts in the Church - 5/14/2008 3:36:24 PM
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lw9
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Hello Jesklu:
quote:
I understand your concern about art in the church. But my church has a little stained glass and a plain cross abover the altar, and also has a processional crucifix which the Acolytes carry.
Is that a sin?
No, and I don't recall ever saying that art in and of itself was a sin.
quote:
Also, about artsy talents not being spiritual gifts, I agree. They are not listed. But what about Christians who don't have any of the listed gifts that are in scripture? What are you to tell them? That they do not have a gift from God?
Do you believe we should tell them something Biblically incorrect just to make them feel good? Hopefully not.
How about telling them the truth of the spiritual gifts and seeing where they fit in. The spiritual gifts aren't just what people consider the 'wow' factor gifts. There are gifts like serving, discerning, encouraging, administration, contributing to the needs of others, and being merciful. Those are all gifts. I find it hard to believe that a Christian would not have at least one of those spiritual gifts.
_____________________________
Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: The Arts in the Church - 5/14/2008 4:05:12 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 1979
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Is it really biblically incorrect to say that the artsy gifts are definitively not spiritual gifts?
I ask that as a rhetorical question.
While it's true that Paul does not include them on his list, he also does not say that only those gifts on his list qualify as "spiritual gifts." In other words, his list may be neither exhaustive nor complete. We see this in other lists - specifically the "sin lists" where Paul lists out a variety of sins. Are those the only sins that exist? Certainly not. The human being has an amazing ability to create new categories of wrongdoing!
I don't even pretend to have the answer. I suspect there are more "spiritual gifts" than what Paul lists out for us. Frankly, I'm not sure the definitive answer to that question is all that important. If it's a spiritual gift, wonderful. If not, it remains true that artistic giftedness is a good thing, and like any other blessing, comes from God. So whether a "spiritual gift" or simply a gift of God, I'm thankful for those that have these talents/gifts/abilities.
Whatever you want to call them. I don't think I would ever tell someone that their abilities are not a gift of God.
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RE: The Arts in the Church - 5/14/2008 4:10:29 PM
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lw9
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Hello GroupW:
quote:
When we speak of "ordination" we're typically speaking about teaching and leadership roles, so I think the first part of your post is a bit of a red herring
No red herring at all. Eph 4:11 is clearly discussing offices of the church, not talents and gifts, but you and kernsfamily seemed to want that particular passage to be a proof-text for including other areas such as talent. I don't see it in there, and that's what I addressed. There is plenty of room for talents to be used within and without the church, but I'm just seeing a lot of confusion over their proper place.
quote:
Are Paul's lists of spiritual gifts exhaustive and complete, or are there others? These are matters of opinion and clearly non-essential to the faith so I think it's appropriate for each Christian and church body to make their own assessments.
I believe these matters are very essential today when Christians are rolling around on the floor as if possessed, put into a stupor, howling, barking, and crawling around on all fours like a dog, uncontrollably jerking and shaking, acting drunk, laughing out of control, and claiming these are 'spiritual gifts'. The scary thing is that I hear them making the exact same arguments made here about why we don't need to stick with the scriptural descriptions of the true spiritual gifts but can go beyond what is written.
We may shake our heads and think the group described above are so way off base and that could never happen in our circles, but when we start raising talent or anything else to an inappropriate level, question whether the Bible is truly complete, and make allowances for new things to creep in, then there will be no stopping the next new tide of unBiblical 'gifts'. If you make allowances for one thing, then you have to make allowances for everything else that wants in, no matter how inane it might be. Someone somewhere will claim to be edified by it, so let it in.
It is essential today to discern right from wrong through scripture and not go beyond what is written, and in the times we live in today, I believe that has to include the issue of spiritual gifts. But that's just me. After seeing what has been going on out there in the realm of so-called spiritual gifts, this seems to be an area of great vulnerability for the church, and that is why I'm so concerned.
< Message edited by lw9 -- 5/14/2008 4:27:43 PM >
_____________________________
Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: The Arts in the Church - 5/14/2008 4:29:33 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 1979
Joined: 11/16/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
It is essential today to discern right from wrong through scripture and not go beyond what is written, and in the times we live in today, that most definitely includes the issue of spiritual gifts.
Hi back at ya' lw9.
I think we've had variations on this topic before in a tangential sort of way. The issue for me is what was Paul's intent on writing his list this way. If he intended to restrict the range of spiritual gifts to these individual items, then we should do so. If he intended the list to be exemplary rather than complete and exhaustive, then we should at least be open to the possibility that there might be a range of gifts not spoken of here directly.
Now, with Paul being dead it's pretty hard to ascertain his intent so it's all just a guess - either way. We can look at Paul's other lists for hints though. Paul doesn't seem to use his other lists in an exhaustive manner. It's at least possible then that Paul didn't tend to restrict the range of spiritual gifts to those he listed and that therefore there are indeed other spiritual gifts.
Personally, I don't have the answer to the question.
If your worry is that people will claim that such ecstatic demonstrations are "spiritual gifts", I think it's possible to separate fact from fiction in a way that is scriptural but does not necessarily present an unneeded restriction in the forms of gifting that God makes available.
Indeed, Paul's listed gifts have defined social and educational functions. The ecstatic acts you mention really don't. Even the gift of tongues that Paul writes about is limited in that if there is noone available to interpret then people are to remain quiet. It seems clear that spiritual gifts have a purpose. I think we can look at someone's claim to spiritual gifting and make a discerning judgement on whether that person's claim is accurate or not based on whether or not that so-called gifting has a function and whether or not that person claiming that gifting is actually successful in fulfilling that function. (I have known people to claim the gift of prophecy but who were in fact really, really awful prophets. Even the claim to a legitimate known gift requires some common sense.)
We don't necessarily have to artificially restrict Paul's list to known gifts in order to have some common sense and biblical justification in what we discern to be spiritual giftedness or not.
Regards,
BT
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RE: The Arts in the Church - 5/14/2008 4:54:00 PM
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lw9
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Hello again!
quote:
GroupW: If your worry is that people will claim that such ecstatic demonstrations are "spiritual gifts", I think it's possible to separate fact from fiction in a way that is scriptural but does not necessarily present an unneeded restriction in the forms of gifting that God makes available.
It may be possible for some, but for thousands upon thousands, it is not. They are being deceived because they do not understand, are perhaps too new to Christ, or do not know how to scripturally discern and are buying into alleged spiritual gifts that are leading them astray.
We probably aren't going to see eye to eye on this, and that's perfectly okay. I just hope you can at least hear some of my points - particularly about the seriously disturbing manifestations that are being called 'spiritual gifts' and the similar arguments they use to defend it - and understand why I am so concerned about this slowly creeping in and happening yet again. It may be a different circle with a different label and different behaviors attached, but it's still the same potential for deception down the road.
I really do think the spiritual gifts area is a vulnerable one for the church right now, so that's why I would rather see people proceed with extreme caution and 'not go beyond what's written' than risk another unBiblical wave of 'gifts' sweep through their midst.
_____________________________
Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: The Arts in the Church - 5/14/2008 5:06:06 PM
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JesKlu
Posts: 544
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
Do you believe we should tell them something Biblically incorrect just to make them feel good? Hopefully not.
How about telling them the truth of the spiritual gifts and seeing where they fit in. The spiritual gifts aren't just what people consider the 'wow' factor gifts. There are gifts like serving, discerning, encouraging, administration, contributing to the needs of others, and being merciful. Those are all gifts. I find it hard to believe that a Christian would not have at least one of those spiritual gifts.
I would have to agree to this. No I do not believe we are to tell someone something Biblically incorrect just to make them feel good. And I think I did mention in my post that the arts are not listed in the bible as spiritual gifts.
But you have a point that a Christian should have at least one spiritual gift.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: The Arts in the Church - 5/14/2008 5:28:07 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2449
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I by no means would equate a God-given talent as a spiritual gift; this is something given at spiritual birth. On the other hand, a talent is something given at physical birth. Both are God-given, it is the timing that differs.
A spiritual gift is meant to edify the body in an interpersonal or corprate manner. A talent is meant to edify the body in the manner of worship either individual or corporate.
Not to go off topic, but this is why I have a problem with a "Spiritual Gift Test." A thorough pagan can take the test and come up with her spiritual gifts.
Paul was a tent-maker and I am sure that his tents glorified the Lord.
1 Cor 10:31 - 33 (ESV) 31So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. 32Give no offense to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God, 33just as I try to please everyone in everything I do, not seeking my own advantage, but that of many, that they may be saved.
Col 3:15 - 17 (ESV) 15And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful. 16Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God. 17And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
_____________________________
The grace of God is infinite and eternal. As it had no beginning, so it can have no end, and being an attribute of God, it is as boundless as infinitude.
A. W. Tozer (1897–1963)
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RE: The Arts in the Church - 5/14/2008 6:18:08 PM
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techne
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...getting back to how the arts fit in the church, here's some interesting reading - it's a lausanne occasional paper: redeeming the arts here. it's #46 (though there are many other interesting documents on this website). prompted by a challenge from billy graham, the lausanne movement's focus is world evangelism.
it might generate some interesting discussion on the topic at hand...
_____________________________
And when people cease to believe that there is good and evil
Only beauty will call to them and save them
So that they still know how to say: this is true and that is false.
One more day by Czeslaw Milosz
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RE: The Arts in the Church - 5/15/2008 1:17:25 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 1979
Joined: 11/16/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
We probably aren't going to see eye to eye on this, and that's perfectly okay. I just hope you can at least hear some of my points - particularly about the seriously disturbing manifestations that are being called 'spiritual gifts' and the similar arguments they use to defend it - and understand why I am so concerned about this slowly creeping in and happening yet again.
I totally get your point on that. We probably won't see eye to eye, but our disagreement is probably more on the solution we would choose rather than the nature of the problem. My solution would be to be flexible on what we call "spiritual gifts" but educate on what the function of a gift really is and to make sure that folks understand that things that look like epileptic fits aren't edifying to the body and in Paul's mind didn't really qualify for use in a church assembly as a spiritual gift. I'd prefer not to constrain the bible unnecessarily and risk changing the meaning of what Paul intended to write.
Your solution would be to err on the side of conservatism (not a bad idea either , all things considered.) and constrain what "spiritual gift" means to those items that Paul mentions. That works too, though personally I don't like the idea of constraining a text more tightly than the original writer may have intended.
Either way there are risks of making mistakes. So yes, I do think our disagreement is more how we would address the problem rather than the nature of the problem itself.
Did I get this about right?
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RE: The Arts in the Church - 5/15/2008 1:21:12 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 1979
Joined: 11/16/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: techne
...getting back to how the arts fit in the church, here's some interesting reading - it's a lausanne occasional paper: redeeming the arts here. it's #46 (though there are many other interesting documents on this website). prompted by a challenge from billy graham, the lausanne movement's focus is world evangelism.
it might generate some interesting discussion on the topic at hand...
cool link - thanks. Might take a bit of time to digest all that ;)
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RE: The Arts in the Church - 5/16/2008 8:16:17 AM
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Hephzibah610
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
Ex 31:1 - 11 (ESV) 1The Lord said to Moses, 2“See, I have called by name Bezalel the son of Uri, son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, 3and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with ability and intelligence, with knowledge and all craftsmanship, 4to devise artistic designs, to work in gold, silver, and bronze, 5in cutting stones for setting, and in carving wood, to work in every craft. 6And behold, I have appointed with him Oholiab, the son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan. And I have given to all able men ability, that they may make all that I have commanded you: 7the tent of meeting, and the ark of the testimony, and the mercy seat that is on it, and all the furnishings of the tent, 8the table and its utensils, and the pure lampstand with all its utensils, and the altar of incense, 9and the altar of burnt offering with all its utensils, and the basin and its stand, 10and the finely worked garments,£ the holy garments for Aaron the priest and the garments of his sons, for their service as priests, 11and the anointing oil and the fragrant incense for the Holy Place. According to all that I have commanded you, they shall do.”
Ex 35:30 - 35 (ESV) 30Then Moses said to the people of Israel, “See, the Lord has called by name Bezalel the son of Uri, son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah; 31and he has filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, with intelligence, with knowledge, and with all craftsmanship, 32to devise artistic designs, to work in gold and silver and bronze, 33in cutting stones for setting, and in carving wood, for work in every skilled craft. 34And he has inspired him to teach, both him and Oholiab the son of Ahisamach of the tribe of Dan. 35He has filled them with skill to do every sort of work done by an engraver or by a designer or by an embroiderer in blue and purple and scarlet yarns and fine twined linen, or by a weaver—by any sort of workman or skilled designer.
If God used artists and craftsman in OT days, why not in the church?
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Report | Post #: 31
RE: The Arts in the Church - 5/13/2008 4:22:05 PM 
Yes! Thank you! This is what I mean. I haven't been back to check this post until today and wow...as it was put in one post...a lively discussion ensues! I am thankful for these scriptures... I guess my thoughts are that God created each of us in His image. Each have different personalities and giftings. That the Body of Christ isn't one-dimensional. There has to be a place for each one. (1Cor12:14-20. For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot says, "Because I am not a hand, I am not a part of the body," it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body. And if the ear says, "Because I am not an eye, I am not a part of the body," it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be? But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired. If they were all one member, where would the body be? But now there are many members, but one body.)
I am thinking of people who grew discouraged and finally left the church because they didn't know where they fit into the Body of Believers. There seems to only be room for those who are of a certain part of the Body. We are often one-dimensional.
In reference to the "idol" topic...ANYthing can become an idol. Even the form we use each Sunday to worship, the way we pray, even our own "wisdom". Humanity constantly tries to set up 'self-righteous' ways ...including idols(Speaking as a human, I'm sure I have done this at times  )..we all must be on guard not to set ANYthing up above God Himself. To be safe from "idolizing" we must always start with acknowledging God--walk in humility--declaring our dependence on Him. (Romans 1:21-25) (But idol-worship was rather a rabbit trail in regards to why I posted this to begin with.) 
What I desire to see is talented people...who are often quietly sitting in their pew on Sunday... finding out how they could use their God-given talents to glorify God. I have desired to see a group formed in our church who could encourage one another and perhaps train one another to this end.
I wrote this post to find out if there were other places/churches who might have found a solution to engaging artists(besides the usual ones who play on Sunday morning...or more "famous" ones who are brought in.) for the purpose of drawing the giftings out of them and showing them that there is a place for them in the Body of Christ... Who knows who we might have sitting in our pews whose artistic expression whether through painting/drawing, music, writing, poetry, handcraft skills....etc., etc. could draw others to God!
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RE: The Arts in the Church - 5/16/2008 8:18:27 AM
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Hephzibah610
Posts: 31
Status: offline
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Thanks for the link(s)....
God bless you!
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RE: The Arts in the Church - 5/19/2008 11:51:15 AM
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techne
Posts: 537
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
If God used artists and craftsman in OT days, why not in the church?
well, that is the question, isn't it? and the answer is - he can. and will. i think that these passages of scripture are interesting in that they picture some of what the artists did, but also lay out how they are to be. we are first told what the artists [must] bring to the table, and then we are told what they made for G-d and moses and the nation.
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ORIGINAL: Hephzibah610
Yes! Thank you! This is what I mean. I haven't been back to check this post until today and wow...as it was put in one post...a lively discussion ensues! I am thankful for these scriptures... I guess my thoughts are that God created each of us in His image.
yeah...i love that we are image-bearers...
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ORIGINAL: Hephzibah610
I am thinking of people who grew discouraged and finally left the church because they didn't know where they fit into the Body of Believers. There seems to only be room for those who are of a certain part of the Body. We are often one-dimensional.
that's why discipleship is so important - if identity, purpose and a servant's heart are established that is much less likely to occur.
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ORIGINAL: Hephzibah610
What I desire to see is talented people...who are often quietly sitting in their pew on Sunday... finding out how they could use their God-given talents to glorify God. I have desired to see a group formed in our church who could encourage one another and perhaps train one another to this end.
so what thoughts do you have on starting that? what would you do? how would you frame that (i.e. what would your purpose or desire - mission/ vision) be? what you do will be shaped by the vision and mission of your leadership, the church's focus, and the pool of talent/ skills/ experience you have available.
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ORIGINAL: Hephzibah610
I wrote this post to find out if there were other places/churches who might have found a solution to engaging artists(besides the usual ones who play on Sunday morning...or more "famous" ones who are brought in.) for the purpose of drawing the giftings out of them and showing them that there is a place for them in the Body of Christ... Who knows who we might have sitting in our pews whose artistic expression whether through painting/drawing, music, writing, poetry, handcraft skills....etc., etc. could draw others to God!
music (including singing) is usually embraced, and sometimes drama. including some of the other art forms is often way down the list. my concern is always that "drawing the giftings out" be purposeful and kingdom-advancing. it should not start and end with the artist. it's not simply about giving them an opportunity to express themselves (which is entirely different than serving). i would suggest you start with training and discipling, and then developing a relationship with the leadership to see how the artists (in whatever medium) may serve the church's vision.
give me some time and i'll compile a list of websites for you (and i know i've posted links about this in the past). one interesting place to start might be http://www.alternativeworship.org/.
< Message edited by techne -- 5/20/2008 9:41:56 AM >
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And when people cease to believe that there is good and evil
Only beauty will call to them and save them
So that they still know how to say: this is true and that is false.
One more day by Czeslaw Milosz
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RE: The Arts in the Church - 5/20/2008 9:27:55 AM
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techne
Posts: 537
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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re: exodus
here is an interesting (and fun) post from the stuffchristianslike blog (a slightly irreverent but honest look at "christian culture") -- though it should be noted that he is incorrect in his entry: the priests weren't anointed with oil until after bezale'el and aholiab had made everything, including the anointing oil...
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And when people cease to believe that there is good and evil
Only beauty will call to them and save them
So that they still know how to say: this is true and that is false.
One more day by Czeslaw Milosz
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