RE: Are there any LCMS Lutherans around here? (Full Version)

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JesKlu -> RE: Are there any LCMS Lutherans around here? (5/28/2008 10:58:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doghouse

There is an LCMS Church down the road from me (I pass it going to my in-laws house). Very nice looking - fairly new. It says "Missouri Synod" right there on the sign below the name of the Church.

Question: if I see a sign in front of a Lutheran Church that just says "so-and-so" Lutheran Church, how do I know which type (synod) Church it is? What synod is it most likely affiliated with? Is the Wisconsin Synod more common north, and the Missouri Synod more common in the south?

Is worship significantly different? Or are the differences mainly within the instruction and pastoral guidance given?

Nice thread Matt.


Missouri and Wisonsin synods really aren't more common in one area or the other. I'm sure the Wisconsin Synod is fairly common in Wisconsin, but at the same, we both LCMS and WELS are across all states, but the LCMS has a bigger membership population (2.5 million), where the Wisconsin Synod is only about half a million.

Worship is really no different between the two. We both are confessional Lutheran Synods, meaning we believe the Bible is the Inerrant Word of God and we are faithful to the Lutheran Confessions (Book of Concord). There is a few minor differences between the two synods, but they are very minor.

The Book of Concord is pretty much a sum up of what we Lutherans believe, teach, and confess. But, the ELCA, which is the liberal synod, does not adhere strictly to what the Book of Concord says. They just sometimes quote from it to make a nice show.

About some Lutheran Churches not having a sign to know which synod affiliation they are in, I don't know what to say about those churches. But I can say most of the Lutheran Churches you will see will say what synod they belong too.

Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica



Ps103 -> RE: Are there any LCMS Lutherans around here? (5/28/2008 11:36:21 AM)

Dog--

There are far more Lutheran groups that just the LCMS, WELS and ELCA. If there is no indication of the synod on the sign (which to me would be odd, but I am sure it happens), there is the chance that it is "none of the above." HERE is a list of Lutheran bodies in North America.

As for the post (Matt's?) that said some Evangelicals think Lutherans are "Catholic-lite," I think that has to do more with the order of the service than anything else. Liturgical services and cycles are completely foreign to a lot of Evangelicals--it simply is outside their experience and the do not see the reason for it. Just as for a Christian who is used to a liturgical church would feel a non-liturgical church seemed hap-hazard and "not quite right," for a non-liturgal Christian a liturgical service would seem stiff and ritualistic. (I hope that made sense--it did inside my head[:D]).



Mattumanu -> RE: Are there any LCMS Lutherans around here? (5/28/2008 12:54:59 PM)

For a Church to be in the LCMS, they are typically required to identify themselves with this:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x201/lutherandifference/lcmscross1.jpg

Not that earthshattering, most denominations have something like this on their sign. It's just know what's what.

To clarify a bit, the main reason Lutherans get labeled "Catholic Lite" is infant baptism and not usually because of liturgy or the church calendar. Discussions about this and the Lord's supper are usually fruitless in debate due to the "Symbolic vs. Magic" mindset of many evangelicals.

Someone mentioned "conversion" and that being equated with turning your back on one Church or another. What I'm about to type is in no way an attack on Rome: The Lutheran understanding about church is that there are believers to be found anywhere that the word is rightly preached and the sacraments rightly administered. There are good Roman Catholic Churches just like there are bad LCMS Churches. But also, even in the bad Churches there are believers to be found because the Holy Spirit works faith whenever and wherever it pleases him to do so.

Conversion in a narrow sense would be conversion by the Holy Spirit wherein faith has been generated and a confession of Christ is understood. Conversion in a broader sense would be converting to what one believes is a better confession of faith. I can come to faith by conversion, but I can also convert to a better confession of faith.

These days, of course, the idea of subscribing to a "confession of faith" is seen as antithetical to "believing the Bible", but look at the form used in the Augsberg confession. In each article, the understanding of an article of faith is represented, then a series of condemnations. The condemnations are there because the writers of the confession wished to express to Rome that we condemn the heretical beliefs that the she would then accuse us of, IF she misunderstands our confession. We don't offer those condemnations because we're mean spirited, but because our opponents would accuse us of those heresies if they misunderstand.

I hope this helps a little bit.



JesKlu -> RE: Are there any LCMS Lutherans around here? (5/28/2008 1:52:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ps103

Dog--

There are far more Lutheran groups that just the LCMS, WELS and ELCA. If there is no indication of the synod on the sign (which to me would be odd, but I am sure it happens), there is the chance that it is "none of the above." HERE is a list of Lutheran bodies in North America.

As for the post (Matt's?) that said some Evangelicals think Lutherans are "Catholic-lite," I think that has to do more with the order of the service than anything else. Liturgical services and cycles are completely foreign to a lot of Evangelicals--it simply is outside their experience and the do not see the reason for it. Just as for a Christian who is used to a liturgical church would feel a non-liturgical church seemed hap-hazard and "not quite right," for a non-liturgal Christian a liturgical service would seem stiff and ritualistic. (I hope that made sense--it did inside my head[:D]).


Hello

Some of the Lutheran Churches on your list are in Canada, so that has nothing to do with the U.S.

Here is a list that onl applies to U.S.
ELCA,
LC- MS (Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod)
WELS (Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod)
AALC (American Association of Lutheran Congregations)
Association of Free Lutheran Churches (AFLC)
Evangelical Lutheran Synod (ELS)
Apostolic Lutheran Church in America
Church of the Lutheran Brethren in America
Church of the Lutheran Confession
Concordia Lutheran Conference
Conservative Lutheran Conference
Estonian Evangelical Lutheran Church
Evangelical Lutheran Federation
Fellowship of Lutheran Congregations
International Lutheran Fellowship
Latvian Evangelical Lutheran Church
Lutheran Churches of the Reformation
The Protestant Conference

http://www.taalc.org/lutheran_distinctions.htm

These are the Lutheran Synods that are here in the United States.

Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica



Ps103 -> RE: Are there any LCMS Lutherans around here? (5/28/2008 2:02:35 PM)

quote:

Some of the Lutheran Churches on your list are in Canada, so that has nothing to do with the U.S.


If you will look, I believe you will find that I said "North America."[;)] Even so, it does not matter--this is the World Wide Web, after all[:D] There is nothing that says we must stick to America in the threads.

The point is that LCMS, WELS and ELCA are by no means the only types of Lutherans.

Matt, I see what you are saying about infant Baptism--but *most* churches practice this, do they not?

Maybe what I am unclear about is the definition of "Evangelical." Are Methodists and Presbyterians not considered Evangelical? (Sincere question--I do not know, but I thought they were.)



JesKlu -> RE: Are there any LCMS Lutherans around here? (5/28/2008 2:08:08 PM)

ORIGINAL: Mattumanu

quote:

To clarify a bit, the main reason Lutherans get labeled "Catholic Lite" is infant baptism and not usually because of liturgy or the church calendar. Discussions about this and the Lord's supper are usually fruitless in debate due to the "Symbolic vs. Magic" mindset of many evangelicals.


I know, I have heard that myself. Before I got confirmed in the LCMS, there was this Baptist lady who said Catholics and Lutherans are the same. I was like, "What? No they're not." She responded, "yes they are." To me, I think it's just ignorance of what the Lutherans teach. They just see on the outside and judge from that.

And I also believe a lot of it stems from this "Believer's Baptism" theory that stemmed from the Anabaptist movement in 1520 under the leadership of Thomas Muenzer. They like to argue that since infants can't have faith, they can't be baptized. You can give them all the Scriptures that point out that infants can definately have faith, but they love to hold on to what their preachers preach. They don't look deeper into the Scriptures.

quote:

Someone mentioned "conversion" and that being equated with turning your back on one Church or another. What I'm about to type is in no way an attack on Rome: The Lutheran understanding about church is that there are believers to be found anywhere that the word is rightly preached and the sacraments rightly administered. There are good Roman Catholic Churches just like there are bad LCMS Churches. But also, even in the bad Churches there are believers to be found because the Holy Spirit works faith whenever and wherever it pleases him to do so.


Agreed, I believe there are true believers in all congregations that rightly preach the Word of God also.

quote:

Conversion in a narrow sense would be conversion by the Holy Spirit wherein faith has been generated and a confession of Christ is understood. Conversion in a broader sense would be converting to what one believes is a better confession of faith. I can come to faith by conversion, but I can also convert to a better confession of faith.


That is exactly what I did, by getting confirmed in the LCMS.

quote:

These days, of course, the idea of subscribing to a "confession of faith" is seen as antithetical to "believing the Bible", but look at the form used in the Augsberg confession. In each article, the understanding of an article of faith is represented, then a series of condemnations. The condemnations are there because the writers of the confession wished to express to Rome that we condemn the heretical beliefs that the she would then accuse us of, IF she misunderstands our confession. We don't offer those condemnations because we're mean spirited, but because our opponents would accuse us of those heresies if they misunderstand.


I agree wholeheartedly. There are so many church bodies that don't have a confession of faith really, they just say all we need is the Bible, not a confession of what we believe. Just look at the Baptists. There's probably hundreds of divisions in the Baptist denomination, all because they don't subscribe to a confession of faith.

Thanks to what a group of pastors did in 1580, by putting together the Book of Concord, the Lutherans are probably the most united of all the Protestants. There's only 18 Lutheran Synods in the U.S., compared to hundreds in the Batist, Pentecostal, and Charismatic circles.

Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica



drfuss -> RE: Are there any LCMS Lutherans around here? (5/28/2008 3:03:36 PM)

drfuss: I have a question about what Lutherans believe concerning the forgiveness of sins after becoming a Christian. Somewhere I heard that during the Lutheran service, the people ask forgivness of sins and the minister, acting in place of Christ, forgives their sins. Is there anything to this? Am I confused? or What?



FREELUTH -> RE: Are there any LCMS Lutherans around here? (5/28/2008 3:03:58 PM)

I usually get a different reaction when I tell other Protestants that I am Lutheran. When they hear Lutheran they think ELCA (gay marrige, abortion rights, left wing political causes, NCC ect.). Then I tell them I am a Free Lutheran and they think we don't put money in offering plate. When you can explain to them you are conservative, traditional, and believe in Biblical inerrancy many do not know there are Lutherans like that.

An excellent book on what Lutherans have to offer to the rest of Christianity is "The defense never rests". Can not remembr the author. He is a former Campus Crusader, lawer, who became Lutheran.



JesKlu -> RE: Are there any LCMS Lutherans around here? (5/28/2008 4:46:18 PM)

Another excellent book on what Lutherans believe is called The Spirituality of the Cross by Gene Edward Veith Jr. An excellent book, very contagious. I remember when I read it, I couldn't put it down. This author basically traveled from religion to religion, and from Christian denomination to denomination, until he found the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod.

Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica



PeterD -> RE: Are there any LCMS Lutherans around here? (5/28/2008 7:49:16 PM)

Hello Jessica,

Now that you are a recognized member of the LCMS group, what kind of spirit are you talking in? Are you legalistic or merciful or both

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/legalistic

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mercy

James 2:1-13

Favoritism Forbidden
1My brothers, as believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ, don't show favoritism. 2Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in shabby clothes also comes in. 3If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, "Here's a good seat for you," but say to the poor man, "You stand there" or "Sit on the floor by my feet," 4have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?
5Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him? 6But you have insulted the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court? 7Are they not the ones who are slandering the noble name of him to whom you belong?

8If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. 9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

12Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!

Jessica remember what father Ron said to us about cutting right through arguments

Jessica is the LCMS group doing what you are doing on this forum?

PeterD



JesKlu -> RE: Are there any LCMS Lutherans around here? (5/28/2008 8:16:23 PM)

Hello!

I apologize for me being rude for using the LCMS position to point fingers. I am sorry. I am a recent convert from teh Roman Catholic Church and I have carried a lot of the pain that came from the Roman Catholic Church into the Lutheran. I really shouldn't be pointing fingers, I try to tame myself but most of the time it doesn't work.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, Have mercy upon me, a sinner.

Lord, soften up my heart, to be more merciful towards my neighbors here on this forum. In Jesus' name I pray, Amen.

Jessica



Ps103 -> RE: Are there any LCMS Lutherans around here? (5/28/2008 8:25:51 PM)

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Mattumanu -> RE: Are there any LCMS Lutherans around here? (5/29/2008 1:16:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drfuss

drfuss: I have a question about what Lutherans believe concerning the forgiveness of sins after becoming a Christian. Somewhere I heard that during the Lutheran service, the people ask forgivness of sins and the minister, acting in place of Christ, forgives their sins. Is there anything to this? Am I confused? or What?


Corporate Confession and Absolution. Yes, there is something to it. And rightly so, you are probably confused by it.

The congregation confesses corporately, in other words together, usually in this manner:

Most merciful God, We confess that we have sinned against You in thought, word and deed, by what we have done and by what we have left undone. We have not loved you with our whole heart. We have not loved our neighbors as ourselves. We just deserve your present and eternal punishment. For the sake of your son, Jesus Christ, have mercy on us. Forgive us, renew us and lead us so that we may delight in your will and walk in your ways to the Glory of your Holy Name. Amen.

The Pastor replies.

Almighty God in His mercy has given His Son to die for you and for His sake forgives you all your sins. As a called and ordained servant of Christ and by His authority I therefore forgive you all your sins in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

Notice: "called and ordained servant of Christ and by His authority". He forgives sins by the authority of Christ, not instead of Christ. It's like what a Lawyer does when he reads someone's last will and testament. The Lawyer only does so by the authority of the person whom the will belonged to.

Hope that helps.



Mattumanu -> RE: Are there any LCMS Lutherans around here? (5/29/2008 1:19:57 AM)

I know it's not polite to double post, but I couldn't help notice this from Freeluth's signature.

"my hope is built on nothing less than Jesus' blood and righteousness".

I just wanted to point to that and say AMEN.



PeterD -> RE: Are there any LCMS Lutherans around here? (5/29/2008 3:15:57 AM)

Thanks for the Word Mattumanu, Jessica and I need Him very much.

PeterD



VCO -> RE: Are there any LCMS Lutherans around here? (5/29/2008 4:05:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mattumanu

Hi everyone,

I used to moderate around these parts, but at one point I got tired of what was going on. I'm just curious, after being gone for a long time, what the shape of the landscape is theologically speaking. I see lots of "arminians" and "calvinists", but not many Lutherans, or at least it seems that way.


U&U

I was born and raised in the LCMS. Because of the LCMS's strict teachings on biblical inerrancy, I have the greatest respect for the firm foundation they gave me. After I was born again in 1979, my hunger for MORE bible teaching grew and grew. The 15 min. Sermons in the LCMS were leaving my spirit starved, so I moved on to I.F.C.A. Churches. Independant Fundamentalist Churches of America, are known for a HEALTHY portion of spiritual food in a worship service. Sermons in the I.F.C.A. Churches that I have been associated with average 45 min. to an hour, and I love it. Frequently I wish the Pastor would teach even longer. I absolutely believe all churches should have at least 45 min. sermons during a Worship Service. After all, Jesus told Peter three time to "Feed my sheep", yet many churches must think He said "Sing my songs".

As for what do those from the LCMS think of the "Arminian vs. Calvinists" debates (which frequently degenerate into arguments); I think most would agree with me. "They are frequently silly, sometimes humerous, but over-all they are down right sad." Whenever you have extremists arguing opposite points of view, the Truth usually lies somewhere in between. Paul saw similar opposing arguments tearing the Church apart; and here is how he responded to them:

Romans 14:1-20 (HCSB)
1 Accept anyone who is weak in faith, but don’t argue about doubtful issues.
2 One person believes he may eat anything, but one who is weak eats only vegetables.
3 One who eats must not look down on one who does not eat; and one who does not eat must not criticize one who does, because God has accepted him.
4 Who are you to criticize another’s servant? Before his own Lord he stands or falls. And stand he will! For the Lord is able to make him stand.
5 One person considers one day to be above another day. Someone else considers every day to be the same. Each one must be fully convinced in his own mind.
6 Whoever observes the day, observes it to the Lord. Whoever eats, eats to the Lord, since he gives thanks to God; and whoever does not eat, it is to the Lord that he does not eat, yet he thanks God.
7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself.
8 If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9 Christ died and came to life for this: that He might rule over both the dead and the living.
10 But you, why do you criticize your brother? Or you, why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
11 For it is written: As I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow to Me, and every tongue will give praise to God.
12 So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13 Therefore, let us no longer criticize one another, but instead decide not to put a stumbling block or pitfall in your brother’s way.
14 (I know and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself. Still, to someone who considers a thing to be unclean, to that one it is unclean.)
15 For if your brother is hurt by what you eat, you are no longer walking according to love. By what you eat, do not destroy that one for whom Christ died.
16 Therefore, do not let your good be slandered,
17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.
18 Whoever serves the Messiah in this way is acceptable to God and approved by men.
19 So then, we must pursue what promotes peace and what builds up one another.
20 Do not tear down God’s work . . ."



Doghouse -> RE: Are there any LCMS Lutherans around here? (5/29/2008 5:59:12 AM)

quote:

Then I tell them I am a Free Lutheran and they think we don't put money in offering plate.
...LOL...
"Free Lutheran" to me sounds like a Lutheran who has broken the bonds and shackles of being...Lutheran (?!?)

So - if there are these numbers of Synods, what really delineates them? The only equivalent I can draw upon with any kind of experience is the various rites within my Church. The only distinctions between rites tends to be the order of worship, which tends to reflect the cultures and history of where these rites are located or practiced. There is no doctrinal difference at all, only the manner of worship.

Is the distinction between the Synods liturgical, doctrinal, social? What delineates the top three, in terms of definition? If I am sitting in a Lutheran service, and didn't see the sign on the way in, what features or characteristics are going to tell me which Synod I am worshipping with?

Interesting stuff. And here I thought Lutheran was Lutheran...



drfuss -> RE: Are there any LCMS Lutherans around here? (5/29/2008 9:14:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mattumanu

quote:

ORIGINAL: drfuss

drfuss: I have a question about what Lutherans believe concerning the forgiveness of sins after becoming a Christian. Somewhere I heard that during the Lutheran service, the people ask forgivness of sins and the minister, acting in place of Christ, forgives their sins. Is there anything to this? Am I confused? or What?


Corporate Confession and Absolution. Yes, there is something to it. And rightly so, you are probably confused by it.

The congregation confesses corporately, in other words together, usually in this manner:

Most merciful God, We confess that we have sinned against You in thought, word and deed, by what we have done and by what we have left undone. We have not loved you with our whole heart. We have not loved our neighbors as ourselves. We just deserve your present and eternal punishment. For the sake of your son, Jesus Christ, have mercy on us. Forgive us, renew us and lead us so that we may delight in your will and walk in your ways to the Glory of your Holy Name. Amen.

The Pastor replies.

Almighty God in His mercy has given His Son to die for you and for His sake forgives you all your sins. As a called and ordained servant of Christ and by His authority I therefore forgive you all your sins in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

Notice: "called and ordained servant of Christ and by His authority". He forgives sins by the authority of Christ, not instead of Christ. It's like what a Lawyer does when he reads someone's last will and testament. The Lawyer only does so by the authority of the person whom the will belonged to.

Hope that helps.


drfuss: Thank you. Frankly, I am mostly in agreement with the Lutheran beliefs, except on this issue. Thank you for clearing this up for me.



BookerG -> RE: Are there any LCMS Lutherans around here? (5/29/2008 2:50:46 PM)

Regarding the confession and absolution, Lutherans believe that when Christ told his disciples, "If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.” "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” and "He who listens to you listens to me," he was giving all Christians the privilege of sharing with sinners the fact that their sins are forgiven. It's not just pastors, but all believers who hold the keys. Only God can forgive sins, but he asked his followers to be his spokesmen so that, when I sin, I can hear the comforting message of forgiveness with the same assurance as if God himself were telling me personally.

As to why there are so many Lutheran churches, some of them exist for purely historical, regional or cultural reasons. Some just prefer a different worship style, but not too different. There's no reason why all churches that believe the same have to belong to one giant organization. Others exist separately on a scale ranging from very conservative to very liberal, but, except for the most liberal, there is far less difference between the Lutheran church bodies than there is between the denominations dividing the other main groups, Calvinist or Arminian.



JesKlu -> RE: Are there any LCMS Lutherans around here? (5/29/2008 7:32:05 PM)

Hello BookerG!
I agree. There are not many differences between the Confessional Lutheran Synods. Confessional Synods function like Eastern Orthodoxy in some ways. Divisions, like you mentioned, are historical, or cultural, there really isn't any difference, or division, in doctrine, except for a few minor things. The Confessional Synods confess that the Bible is the Inerrant Word of God, and these Synods all believe the Book of Concord is faithful to the Scriptures, and is therefore, our confession of faith.

Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica



FREELUTH -> RE: Are there any LCMS Lutherans around here? (5/30/2008 11:32:49 AM)

One other difference between Lutheran bodies is in how the group governs its self. Our Association AFLC is more like the Baptists. Other are less independent than ours. For example we have a list of rostered Pastors but a congregation does not have to call one of them. Congregations are free to call who ever they believe the spirit is calling them to call as the Pastor.



JesKlu -> RE: Are there any LCMS Lutherans around here? (6/2/2008 11:51:14 AM)

Hey Everyone!

If you liked Issues Etc. Great News! They're coming back!!!!!

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You might want to have your speakers on!

Your sister in Chridt Jesus,
Jessica



FREELUTH -> RE: Are there any LCMS Lutherans around here? (6/2/2008 2:34:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JesKlu

Hey Everyone!

If you liked Issues Etc. Great News! They're coming back!!!!!

http://www.piratechristianradio.com/

You might want to have your speakers on!

Your sister in Chridt Jesus,
Jessica

Praise God from whom all blessing flow.



FREELUTH -> RE: Are there any LCMS Lutherans around here? (6/2/2008 2:37:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doghouse

quote:

Then I tell them I am a Free Lutheran and they think we don't put money in offering plate.
...LOL...
"Free Lutheran" to me sounds like a Lutheran who has broken the bonds and shackles of being...Lutheran (?!?)



No we are quite Lutheran. We are free to be the kind of congregation we believe the scriptures and the Spirit lead us to be. We are free from the bonds and shackles of being.......unforgiven sinners !!!!!!!!



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