Are there any LCMS Lutherans around here? (Full Version)

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Mattumanu -> Are there any LCMS Lutherans around here? (5/13/2008 9:47:54 PM)

Hi everyone,

I used to moderate around these parts, but at one point I got tired of what was going on. I'm just curious, after being gone for a long time, what the shape of the landscape is theologically speaking. I see lots of "arminians" and "calvinists", but not many Lutherans, or at least it seems that way.



evry1needsgod -> RE: Are there any LCMS Lutherans around here? (5/13/2008 11:02:19 PM)

I'm just curious. I'm not the smartest person person on the planet, so there are A LOT of things to learn. But what does 'Arminians' and 'Calvinists' have to do with Lutherans? I mean, I know all three are historical people, but isn't Lutheran a denomination? The las time I checked, Arminian and Calvinist were not denominations, so could you compare and contrast these three? Where do Lutherans stand in the "Aminian vs Calvinist" issue, if that is indeed what you are speaking of. Thanks. BTW, I'm not Lutheran.



Ps103 -> RE: Are there any LCMS Lutherans around here? (5/13/2008 11:09:55 PM)

I think there are several LCMS around, Matt. PeterD and Jesklu come immediately to mind.

I was Lutheran a looong time ago, but I was LCA, which no longer exists.



JesKlu -> RE: Are there any LCMS Lutherans around here? (5/14/2008 12:02:31 AM)

Hi Mattumanu!

Hello my real name is Jessica and my friend PS103 mentioned me, JesKlu, which is my screename, in the last post.

On May 18th, 2008, I am getting confirmed in the LCMS, but I have been attending with Peter since July 16, 2006. Because before I met Peter, I was born and raised in the Roman Catholic Church, then I met Peter who is my fiancee, who is a member of the LCMS. My fiancee Peter and I will be married in this LCMS congregation on June 21, 2008.

I have shared with you I was born and raised in the Roman Catholic Church but for Peter, he was baptized and raised in the ELCA, and along the way, in 1998, he was confirmed into the LCMS.

When Peter brought me to his congregation to meet his pastors, I was a little nervous at first. I was still a devout Roman Catholic who was a Marianist (worshipper of Mary). I even had Peter go through an RCIA class, but he was asked to leave November 30, 2006. And that was the moment I really saw the true face of the Roman Catholic Church.

A few months before then, in July, I repented of the Mary and saint worship in a private place in my parent's house. But just before I repented, Peter had just dropped me off from work. And I tried to convince him, through a brown scapular, that you have to go through Mary in order to have salvation. Before what happened on that night, my view of salvation was extremely warped.

While I was giving Peter his brown scapular, he was telling me that he was already saved and in the protection of Jesus' hands, and that Jesus' blood has already saved him. But I didn't hear him. And I thought Peter was the one who was mislead. But come to find out, when I entered my parent's house that night, I went into my bedroom, tried to pray a Divine Chaplet for Peter's conversion. But I couldn't do it. I had some kind of feeling that something/someone was stopping me. And what happened after God stopped me, I fell on my face and prayed a real prayer in Jesus' name only. Not any of this other stuff.

So from that day on, I have been growing up in the faith and I'm hoping to continue stronger every day in the Lord Jesus Christ. So this event happened months before Peter did the RCIA class, because Peter wanted to lay down his life for my family, because he didn't want my family to reject me. But Peter got kicked out because he is too biblically minded, and I stood up for him as well. In the RCIA class, I was seen as the real heretic. I was even approached by one of the deacons and this deacon told me that I would not be his sponsor anymore, but he would be his sponsor.

I also remember that on one of the pieces of paper in the RCIA class, it was a commentary on how Catholics view scripture. They circled the paragraph, on my piece of paper, that said not to take scripture so literally. I was so offended, but I kept silent at that moment.

Now I am ready for my confirmation this upcoming Sunday. I joyfully await that moment when I get to confess my faith/be confirmed in front of the whole congregation. The Lord Jesus brought me through and I have confidence that He will continue to carry me through.

Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica



FREELUTH -> RE: Are there any LCMS Lutherans around here? (5/14/2008 10:49:19 AM)

I was raised in an LCMS church. We became so small we merged with an ALC church (seem like they were ok at the time). Then came the ELCA disaster. We now belong to the small conservative AFLC. We share with the LCMS a very solid view of biblical inerrancy.

www.aflc.org



FREELUTH -> RE: Are there any LCMS Lutherans around here? (5/14/2008 11:21:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod

But what does 'Arminians' and 'Calvinists' have to do with Lutherans? I mean, I know all three are historical people, but isn't Lutheran a denomination?
Where do Lutherans stand in the "Aminian vs Calvinist" issue, if that is indeed what you are speaking of. Thanks. BTW, I'm not Lutheran.





I guess I would say Lutherans are neither. We would absolutly agree with Calvinist about how one comes to salvation. It is completly a work of God. Man has no part. God chooses man, man does not choose God. We would not agree with all of the 5 points of TULIP. I think Lutherans are 2.75 point Calvinists. [;)].



Heavendweller -> RE: Are there any LCMS Lutherans around here? (5/14/2008 12:11:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FREELUTH
I guess I would say Lutherans are neither. We would absolutly agree with Calvinist about how one comes to salvation. It is completly a work of God. Man has no part. God chooses man, man does not choose God. We would not agree with all of the 5 points of TULIP. I think Lutherans are 2.75 point Calvinists. [;)].

Freeluth,
I am pretty certain that Lutherans would agree with the T-Total Depravity in the tulip. And I am rather certain that they wouldn't agree with the L-Limited Atonement. How am I doing so far?[;)] I'm not sure about the U-Unconditional Election. I think Lutherans might not completely agree with the I-Irresistable Grace, but only partially. As far as the P-Perseverance of the Saints, I'm not sure. I think Lutherans more than likely would believe that once a person has received Christian Baptism in the name of the Triune God, they are a child of God and nothing can change that.

So, how did I do? I welcome any Lutheran's comments.

Heavendweller



JesKlu -> RE: Are there any LCMS Lutherans around here? (5/14/2008 1:19:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Heavendweller

quote:

ORIGINAL: FREELUTH
I guess I would say Lutherans are neither. We would absolutly agree with Calvinist about how one comes to salvation. It is completly a work of God. Man has no part. God chooses man, man does not choose God. We would not agree with all of the 5 points of TULIP. I think Lutherans are 2.75 point Calvinists. [;)].

Freeluth,
I am pretty certain that Lutherans would agree with the T-Total Depravity in the tulip. And I am rather certain that they wouldn't agree with the L-Limited Atonement. How am I doing so far?[;)] I'm not sure about the U-Unconditional Election. I think Lutherans might not completely agree with the I-Irresistable Grace, but only partially. As far as the P-Perseverance of the Saints, I'm not sure. I think Lutherans more than likely would believe that once a person has received Christian Baptism in the name of the Triune God, they are a child of God and nothing can change that.

So, how did I do? I welcome any Lutheran's comments.

Heavendweller


Hello Heavendweller!

You seem to know a lot. Yes, we believe that human nature is entirely depraved and there is no good in human nature when it comes to the fear of God. The L-part, I do not believe we teach. We believe when Christ died on the cross, that he atoned for all our sins, past, present, and future. The U- I have no idea. I would say no, but does the U- part have anything to do with the double election doctrine of Calvin? If so, then Lutherans do not teach that. Cause I think the double elevtion is saying, if you are a believer, especially in their doctrines, you will always be saved no matter what sin you do. Hence the OSAS. Lutherans do NOT believe in OSAS. We believe someone can fall away from faith. I don't know what the I-irresistible grace is, Or the P. I'm not very educated in Calvin.

And your last point, you hit it on the dot. We believe when a person is baptized, they are received into God's kingdom and they become a child of God.

Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica



Heavendweller -> RE: Are there any LCMS Lutherans around here? (5/14/2008 1:45:37 PM)

Jes,
You said that Lutherans don't believe in OSAS. So does that mean Lutherans believe that a Christian can fall away from grace and lose their salvation?

Heavendweller



FREELUTH -> RE: Are there any LCMS Lutherans around here? (5/14/2008 2:10:42 PM)

Here is what I believe Lutherans teach about TULIP

T. Total Deprativty, Yes 100 %.
U. Unconditional Election. Yes, but only on the salvation side. We believe scripture is silent as to why God chooses some and not others. 100%

L. Limited Atonement. No we belive the Atonement is for all people. Some will continue to reject it. God want all people to be saved. 25%

I. Irresistable grace. Kind of. I believe the hound of heaven will persue those he will save. But I often see people who are resisting God's grace. 25%

P. Perserverance of the Saints. Lutherans teach a person can walk away from the faith and that God keeps those in the faith that persevere. I know it does not make logical sense. But that is what we find in scripture.
25%

As for Baptism. Classic Lutheranism has never said the it is once baptised always saved. That is a new Sacramentalism that has come in latley. We do believe God's grace is offered to people in Baptism and Communion. But that grace can be ignored, resisted, or walked away from. We absolutly do not believe that every baptised person is in heaven. Faith is required for salvation. Some (ME) are given faith in baptism.



Heavendweller -> RE: Are there any LCMS Lutherans around here? (5/14/2008 2:14:48 PM)

Thank you, Freeluth. You have been very concise and precise in your answers.

Heavendweller



JesKlu -> RE: Are there any LCMS Lutherans around here? (5/14/2008 2:18:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Heavendweller

Jes,
You said that Lutherans don't believe in OSAS. So does that mean Lutherans believe that a Christian can fall away from grace and lose their salvation?

Heavendweller



Hello Heavendweller!

Here is the first two paragraphs of one of the FAQ's on the Missouri Synod's website.



Q. Can you lose your salvation and if you can, what do you need to do to regain it again?

A. The Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod believes and teaches that it is possible for a true believer to fall from faith, as Scripture itself soberly and repeatedly warns us (1 Cor. 10:12; 1 Pet. 5:8; 2 Pet. 3:17; Heb. 2:1-3; 3:12-19; 6:4-8, etc.). Such warnings are intended for Christians who appear to be lacking a right understanding of the seriousness of their sin and of God's judgment against sin, and who, therefore, are in danger of developing a false and proud "security" based not on God's grace, but on their own works, self-righteousness, or freedom to "do as they please."

By the same token, the LCMS affirms and treasures all of the wonderful passages in Scripture in which God promises that He will never forsake those who trust in Christ Jesus alone for salvation (John 10:27-29; Romans 8; Heb. 13: 5-6, etc.). To those who are truly repentant and recognize their need for God's grace and forgiveness, such passages are powerful reminders of the true security that is ours through sincere and humble faith in Christ alone for our salvation.

http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2647

We basically believe that if you are a believer, but are not truly repentant of your sins, you can fall away from faith and create a false "security", such as the Calvinists do, and you can be in danger of losing your salvation. But if you are a believer, and you repent of your sins, and are alive in the faith, you can be assured that God will never leave nor forsake you.

Hope that answers your question.

Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica



JesKlu -> RE: Are there any LCMS Lutherans around here? (5/14/2008 2:22:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FREELUTH

Here is what I believe Lutherans teach about TULIP

T. Total Deprativty, Yes 100 %.
U. Unconditional Election. Yes, but only on the salvation side. We believe scripture is silent as to why God chooses some and not others. 100%

L. Limited Atonement. No we belive the Atonement is for all people. Some will continue to reject it. God want all people to be saved. 25%

I. Irresistable grace. Kind of. I believe the hound of heaven will persue those he will save. But I often see people who are resisting God's grace. 25%

P. Perserverance of the Saints. Lutherans teach a person can walk away from the faith and that God keeps those in the faith that persevere. I know it does not make logical sense. But that is what we find in scripture.
25%

As for Baptism. Classic Lutheranism has never said the it is once baptised always saved. That is a new Sacramentalism that has come in latley. We do believe God's grace is offered to people in Baptism and Communion. But that grace can be ignored, resisted, or walked away from. We absolutly do not believe that every baptised person is in heaven. Faith is required for salvation. Some (ME) are given faith in baptism.


Thanks FREELUTH for clarifying what my pastor teaches on baptism. We don't believe once you are baptized you will always be saved either. He actually said that in the Adult Instruction classes. That even though someone is baptized, that does not mean they will always have faith, and some are 'believers' by name only. I'm just not very clear sometimes. Thanks for clarifying our belief.

Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica



FREELUTH -> RE: Are there any LCMS Lutherans around here? (5/14/2008 5:29:18 PM)

OK LCMS people I want your take on somethings I have been told are happening in the LCMS. Some friends/family have sent me these websites about a pretty intense debate inside the LCMS.

http://www.alittleleaven.com/
http://chuckfinney.wordpress.com/
http://adelphoitouchristou.typepad.com/savethelcms/
http://augsburg1530.wordpress.com/

It seems many think LCMS is taking a wrong turn. Any thoughts ???



JesKlu -> RE: Are there any LCMS Lutherans around here? (5/14/2008 7:57:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FREELUTH

OK LCMS people I want your take on somethings I have been told are happening in the LCMS. Some friends/family have sent me these websites about a pretty intense debate inside the LCMS.

http://www.alittleleaven.com/
http://chuckfinney.wordpress.com/
http://adelphoitouchristou.typepad.com/savethelcms/
http://augsburg1530.wordpress.com/

It seems many think LCMS is taking a wrong turn. Any thoughts ???


Hello FREELUTH!

These articles do make a point. We are not to adapt to the ever changing culture just to win some people over to Christ. And I think in one of those websites you gave, there was an article that said that in Missionaries Ablaze, most missionaries are lay people, not those theologically trained, such as pastors. I'm not saying all missionaries have to be pastors, but they at LEAST should be better theologically trained.

So the conclusion is, do not compromise scriptural doctrine to win members.

Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica



Doc65 -> RE: Are there any LCMS Lutherans around here? (5/15/2008 10:00:33 PM)

Blessings and Greetings, Mattumanu -

There are a few of us on this site but it seems that we generally don't jump up and down and bring much attention to ourselves...kind of like sitting in the back of the church [;)]



FREELUTH -> RE: Are there any LCMS Lutherans around here? (5/16/2008 9:07:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doc65

Blessings and Greetings, Mattumanu -

There are a few of us on this site but it seems that we generally don't jump up and down and bring much attention to ourselves...kind of like sitting in the back of the church [;)]


Spoken like a true Lutheran.



PeterD -> RE: Are there any LCMS Lutherans around here? (5/16/2008 11:50:04 AM)

Hello friends

Personally I believe I'm to judgmental, I talk about Jesus even get whipped for following Him (being a Christian is hard). I am a member of the LCMS and I like the way this group practices...The LCMS people keep me quiet and this is what I like, personally!

James 1:19-27

Hearing and Doing the Word
19 Know this, my beloved brothers: let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger; 20for the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God. 21Therefore put away all filthiness and rampant wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.
22But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. 23For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror. 24For he looks at himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like. 25But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing.

26If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person’s religion is worthless. 27Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

John 14:6
6Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

your neighbor,
Peter Daniel



Heavendweller -> RE: Are there any LCMS Lutherans around here? (5/16/2008 12:15:41 PM)

I was attending an instructional class in Lutheran beliefs for a while. I considered becoming an LCMS Christian. But I hesitated and then decided that there are too many questions as to what path this denomination is headed toward. Just look at all the liberalism that has entered into the Lutheran Church in the last millenium. I am concerned this is the path which the LCMS is on. Not that the members within the church want it this way, but rather the leadership.
It seems the LCMS is undergoing a subtle transformation to change its current identity. I think the "movers" and "shakers" want to change the sacramental nature of Lutheranism - which in effect - will no longer be Lutheranism. - Heavendweller



JesKlu -> RE: Are there any LCMS Lutherans around here? (5/16/2008 12:47:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Heavendweller

I was attending an instructional class in Lutheran beliefs for a while. I considered becoming an LCMS Christian. But I hesitated and then decided that there are too many questions as to what path this denomination is headed toward. Just look at all the liberalism that has entered into the Lutheran Church in the last millenium. I am concerned this is the path which the LCMS is on. Not that the members within the church want it this way, but rather the leadership.
It seems the LCMS is undergoing a subtle transformation to change its current identity. I think the "movers" and "shakers" want to change the sacramental nature of Lutheranism - which in effect - will no longer be Lutheranism. - Heavendweller


The liberalism that entered is in the ELCA, not the LCMS. I don't think the sacramental nature can be changed, only because we will not be who we are. If there has been any change, it is in the ELCA. The LCMS is a confessional denomination, which means we are faithful to the Scriptures and to the Confessions (Book of Concord).

Plus, remember the Battle of the Bible in the 1970's. Most of the seminary faculty were starting to use the historical-critical method of interpreting scriptures, but they did not win. The conservative minority called to task the liberals, and the liberals walked out. Maybe this is a new battle, and sure enough, I do not believe that God will forsake us.
I believe, if a new attack were to arise, I believe the LCMS will win because we hold sound doctrine, literally.

Matthew 28
And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica



lw9 -> RE: Are there any LCMS Lutherans around here? (5/16/2008 1:23:33 PM)

Hello Mattumanu:

I attend the LCMS church as well. I think we are pretty scarce around here.

quote:

Doc65: There are a few of us on this site but it seems that we generally don't jump up and down and bring much attention to ourselves...kind of like sitting in the back of the church


lol... I tend to jump up and down in the church folder warning about false teachers and such, so I can't say I'm the quiet type. [8D]

quote:

The liberalism that entered is in the ELCA, not the LCMS. I don't think the sacramental nature can be changed, only because we will not be who we are. If there has been any change, it is in the ELCA.


Unfortunately, I see liberalisms creeping into the LCMS, and I have seen this in several different churches in my area so I don't see the LCMS as being immune to what other churches are struggling with. There are many, many things I appreciate about the LCMS, but I can't shut my eyes to the fact that it, just like any other church, can fall victim to the apostasy and fall away someday. I'm not saying it will... but it can. All I can suggest anyone do is keep their eyes open no matter what denomination they attend.



PeterD -> RE: Are there any LCMS Lutherans around here? (5/16/2008 5:27:00 PM)

Hello

I was thinking about how Lutherans got this name so I googled a question and came up with this....

There are not a few honest Lutherans who become quite embarrassed when this is said to them by our opponents. But this accusation is so fictitious, that it will be shown to be without basis as soon as we consider the matter more closely. First, it is a mistake if it is believed that Lutherans took this name for themselves. History reports to us instead that they were first given this name by their opponents in order to insult them. Dr. Eck, who held that well known disputation with Luther in Leipzig, was the first to call those who held to Luther's teaching by that name. We see clearly what Luther thought of this in a writing which he completed in 1522: "Admonition Against Insurrection," in which he says among other things:

I ask that my name be left silent and people not call themselves Lutheran, but rather Christians. Who is Luther? The doctrine is not mine. I have been crucified for no one. St. Paul in 1 Cor. 3:4-5 would not suffer that the Christians should call themselves of Paul or of Peter, but Christian. How should I, a poor stinking bag of worms, become so that the children of Christ are named with my unholy name? It should not be dear friends. Let us extinguish all factious names and be called Christians whose doctrine we have. The pope's men rightly have a factious name because they are not satisfied with the doctrine and name of Christ and want to be with the pope, who is their master. I have not been and will not be a master. Along with the church I have the one general teaching of Christ who alone is our master. Matt. 23:8.

http://www.reclaimingwalther.org/articles/nameLuth.htm

PeterD



HighPlainsDrifter -> RE: Are there any LCMS Lutherans around here? (5/16/2008 7:02:28 PM)

I'm a lapsed ELCA Lutheran that has most recently been visiting a Free Lutheran church. I attended an LCMS church for a year or so though in between.



HighPlainsDrifter -> RE: Are there any LCMS Lutherans around here? (5/16/2008 7:06:46 PM)

quote:


There are a few of us on this site but it seems that we generally don't jump up and down and bring much attention to ourselves...kind of like sitting in the back of the church


Ha! That would be our way.



lw9 -> RE: Are there any LCMS Lutherans around here? (5/18/2008 10:38:27 PM)

quote:

PeterD: I was thinking about how Lutherans got this name so I googled a question and came up with this....


Just to clarify since Peter mentioned the name thing, I don't call myself Lutheran. I simply call myself Christian. Although I've attended an LCMS regularly, I'm not a member.



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