RE: Unintentional Sins - How Are They Forgiven? (Full Version)

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Heavendweller -> RE: Unintentional Sins - How Are They Forgiven? (5/16/2008 3:41:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DougHorton
In other words, to be justified does not only mean that it is "just as if I'd never sinned" (that is only forgiveness), but it is also "just as if I'd always lived in prefect obedience to the Law".

Doug,
What ever you may mean by this comment, I hope you realize that believers in Christ are not exempt from actually living holy lives. We must make it our aim to be Christ-like, to follow in His footsteps. This is not something that occurs naturally nor instantaneously. We should desire to be changed into His likeness, and to be molded and shaped into a vessal fit for God's use.
Our Christian life begins with Christ's imputed righteousness, but that is just the beginning of the journey. We are then imparted with a righteousness that enables us to live godly, holy lives which give glory to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. This is a blessed partnership, one in which we are partakers of His divine nature. Christ became man, that we in turn, may actually become Christ-like.

I know, I'm on a kick with this word ACTUALLY. [:D]

Heavendweller



drmark -> RE: Unintentional Sins - How Are They Forgiven? (5/16/2008 4:07:55 PM)

quote:

Save your haughtiness friend...Your jab is a bit unloving pertaining to my unbelief in God's word. Your actions don't coincide with your position.
Who's jabbing whom, Mannamuncher. I asked you a simple question, which you have completely ignored, but in a spirit of reconciliation, I will phrase it differently.

Most of the translations I have read of Numbers 15 use the following words: unintentional, inadvertent, mistaken, ignorant, etc. to describe these kinds of sin. Since you claim this is a man-made term, how would you translate the concept since I know you believe the Bible is divinely-inspired.

quote:

As for Numbers 15, it pertains to the laws of grain & drink offerings !
This describes the first half of the chapter, not verses 22-29 which are clearly prefaced by the following: "'Now if you unintentionally fail to keep any of these commands the Lord gave Moses-- any of the Lord's commands to you through him, from the day the Lord gave them and continuing through the generations to come". So are you denying the scriptural basis of unintentional sins based on your personal exegesis or do you wish to reconsider your statement that all sins are known by everyone with a sensitive heart?

quote:

This no one can do, therefore we fall short, and that would be a sin, at least for those who can beat their breast in humility.
No one can do it by their own ability. Everyone can do it in, with, and through the perfect Love of Christ!



Bluethread -> RE: Unintentional Sins - How Are They Forgiven? (5/16/2008 4:25:47 PM)

drmark and heaven dweller:

I'm getting confused here, are the two of you saying that Adonai requires us to keep Ha Torah?



figmentPez -> RE: Unintentional Sins - How Are They Forgiven? (5/16/2008 4:30:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:

we're not talking about the avoidance of unintentional sin, but what is done about those sins.
Just a quick question here: how is it possible to avoid unintentional sin if it is unintended?


By the leadings of the LORD. If a man were truly to be 100% submitted to the leadings of the LORD, he would walk perfectly, even if it were in ignorance of why that was the right way to act. If each and every one of our actions were perfectly led by the LORD, then we would not do anything against Him and His perfect Law. Furthermore, if we are seeking God with all that we have, He will bring us to ever greater knowledge of Him and His perfect standards.

quote:

Then you did not sin, brother fig, because sin, properly so called, is a willful disobedience of a known law of God.


See this, right here, is the reason why I find it all but impossible to discuss this matter with you. Right here, you say that the only way to sin is through willfull and knowing disobedience, a definition I know you've used before, but in this very thread you've denied that you've ever put forth such a definition of sin. You're speaking out of both sides of your mouth. Why should I continue in this discussion when you're engaging in such doublethink?

quote:

quote:

The sacrifices of the OT were about faith and obedience.
Ahh, but several NT passages specifically state that OT persons had their faith/obedience credited to them as righteousness. Thus, wouldn't sacrificing in faith and obedience lead to salvation?


Faith and obedience only leads to salvation because of the sacrifice of the Son of God. That is the way by which salvation comes to all of humanity, throughout all of history. There is no other sacrifice for sin. Now that the sacrifice has been made, there is no need to sacrifice animals because we are no longer looking forward to the Messiah, He has already come.



figmentPez -> RE: Unintentional Sins - How Are They Forgiven? (5/16/2008 4:34:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread

1Co 4:6
Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another.

Paul also tells us that if you have something against somebody, there is a proper way of handling that. Had your criticism been on topic, I might have just overlooked this, but what does ones view of trinitarianism have to do with or any of my other "false beliefs" have to do with the forgiveness of unintensional sin? Are sins forgiven by bluethread or figmentPez? By no means! If you wish to discuss the positions I take, then discuss the positions. They are not my positions. I did not invent them, nor do I own them. I merely hold them because they appear to me to be the most reasonable given my understanding of the Scriptures. Therefore, let's focus in the Scriptures and reasonable argumentation not the denegrating of others to support our positions.


My comment is completely on topic, and you've been kind enough in your post to bring up the exact reason. You asked who forgives sin. The answer is that the LORD God forgives sin. The "god" you proclaim, a "god" that is contrary to the teachings of scripture, is just an idol. Idols cannot forgive sin. Because you are preaching anti-Christ, all your claims to truth are suspect and should be treated with skepticism.

In addition, I assure you that proper Christian doctrine, trinitarian doctrine, does not go beyond scripture in any way.



Bluethread -> RE: Unintentional Sins - How Are They Forgiven? (5/16/2008 4:46:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: figmentPez

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread

1Co 4:6
Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another.

Paul also tells us that if you have something against somebody, there is a proper way of handling that. Had your criticism been on topic, I might have just overlooked this, but what does ones view of trinitarianism have to do with or any of my other "false beliefs" have to do with the forgiveness of unintensional sin? Are sins forgiven by bluethread or figmentPez? By no means! If you wish to discuss the positions I take, then discuss the positions. They are not my positions. I did not invent them, nor do I own them. I merely hold them because they appear to me to be the most reasonable given my understanding of the Scriptures. Therefore, let's focus in the Scriptures and reasonable argumentation not the denegrating of others to support our positions.


My comment is completely on topic, and you've been kind enough in your post to bring up the exact reason. You asked who forgives sin. The answer is that the LORD God forgives sin. The "god" you proclaim, a "god" that is contrary to the teachings of scripture, is just an idol. Idols cannot forgive sin. Because you are preaching anti-Christ, all your claims to truth are suspect and should be treated with skepticism.

In addition, I assure you that proper Christian doctrine, trinitarian doctrine, does not go beyond scripture in any way.


So, in your opinion, I have no right to express an opinion or rationally discuss any scripture and therefore, should be banned from this website at least until I see the error of my ways and confess? Who appionted you grand inquisitor?



drmark -> RE: Unintentional Sins - How Are They Forgiven? (5/16/2008 4:57:03 PM)

quote:

I'm getting confused here, are the two of you saying that Adonai requires us to keep Ha Torah?
Luke 10:25-28 leaves no room for confusion, Bluethread! Yeshua clearly affirms that we must obey the two greatest commands in order to inherit eternal life. Since He also clearly stated that all of Ha Torah depends on these two commands, I'm convinced that Christ's Love in us is required for salvation.



drmark -> RE: Unintentional Sins - How Are They Forgiven? (5/16/2008 5:10:25 PM)

quote:

See this, right here, is the reason why I find it all but impossible to discuss this matter with you. Right here, you say that the only way to sin is through willfull and knowing disobedience, a definition I know you've used before, but in this very thread you've denied that you've ever put forth such a definition of sin. You're speaking out of both sides of your mouth. Why should I continue in this discussion when you're engaging in such doublethink?
figmentPez, I have carefully reviewed all my posts in this thread and I can now see why you would think I was using "doublethink" on this topic. However, the truth is that my intention was to show neutrality in the OP and early responses in order not to derail discussion. Thus I used "we" loosely (yet incorrectly) when I actually do not consider unintentional sins to be sins properly so-called as willful disobedience of God's known will.

In truth, this would likely qualify as an unintentional sin since I performed an action that resulted in frustration and disappointment in a fellow Believer, which was not my intent. Since you have brought it to my attention, God and I have taken care of the matter as outlined in post #14 by FreeGrace. I would now ask your forgiveness for my error as well. You have contributed important spiritual truth on this thread, figPez, for which I am quite grateful.



figmentPez -> RE: Unintentional Sins - How Are They Forgiven? (5/16/2008 5:13:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread

So, in your opinion, I have no right to express an opinion or rationally discuss any scripture and therefore, should be banned from this website at least until I see the error of my ways and confess? Who appionted you grand inquisitor?


I'm fine with you posting here. I just think that it's only fair to warn everyone that you don't believe in Christian doctrine, and don't follow the same Jesus Christ that the Apostles taught.



Bluethread -> RE: Unintentional Sins - How Are They Forgiven? (5/16/2008 5:21:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: figmentPez

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread

So, in your opinion, I have no right to express an opinion or rationally discuss any scripture and therefore, should be banned from this website at least until I see the error of my ways and confess? Who appionted you grand inquisitor?


I'm fine with you posting here. I just think that it's only fair to warn everyone that you don't believe in Christian doctrine, and don't follow the same Jesus Christ that the Apostles taught.


Consider the scarlet letter or should I say the yellow star od David properly attached.



Ezra -> RE: Unintentional Sins - How Are They Forgiven? (5/18/2008 1:05:17 AM)

quote:

So, my opening questions for consideration are the following: How do we acknowledge, confess, and repent of sins we do not even realize we've committed? Is there a different application or mechanism of grace for forgiveness of sins done in ignorance between the OT Levitical system and the NT Atonement?


1. The KJV rightly uses the term "ignorance" in Numbers 15. The Hebrew word is shegagah, means a mistake or inadvertent transgression, error, ignorance, at unawares, unwittingly (Strong's). Therefore it is not so much a question of intentional vs unintentional sins as wilful vs unawares. Unintentional has a slightly different connotation.

2. In the OT sins of ignorance or error required a sacrifice just as much as any other sins. Therefore Christ took upon Himself ALL our sins, and paid the full penalty for them. And His one sacrifice for sin was for all time.

3. Since we know that Christians have not had their old natures eradicated and "the flesh" troubles us daily, it follows that we will sin both knowingly and ignorantly.

4. There is only one way to deal with all sins -- confession and repentance. Therefore we must daily confess to God that we have sinned (especially because we may be unaware of this, yet God fully knows). Just as the Lord's Prayer speaks of "daily bread" it also speaks of "daily forgiveness".

5. God has promised to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness when we truly confess and repent. To pretend that we have no sin is to deceive ourselves (1 Jn. 1:8-2:2).



Ezra -> RE: Unintentional Sins - How Are They Forgiven? (5/18/2008 1:14:16 AM)

quote:

What about the Hebrew patriarchs, prophets, great men and women of faith all of whom lived before the crucifixion. Are they in heaven now?


Absolutely. We read of "the spirits of just men made perfect" being with God and Christ in the heavenly Jerusalem (Heb. 12:22-24).

They were justified by faith and perfected by Christ when He ascended back to Heaven (Eph. 4:8).



drmark -> RE: Unintentional Sins - How Are They Forgiven? (5/19/2008 8:37:39 AM)

quote:

1. The KJV rightly uses the term "ignorance" in Numbers 15. The Hebrew word is shegagah, means a mistake or inadvertent transgression, error, ignorance, at unawares, unwittingly (Strong's). Therefore it is not so much a question of intentional vs unintentional sins as wilful vs unawares. Unintentional has a slightly different connotation.
Could you expound on this a little more, Ezra. If we intend to do something (either an action or an inaction), then how could we be "unaware" of our will in this matter? Is stubbing one's toe a sin? That is obviously unintentional, but we are quite aware of the pain in just a few moments.

quote:

3. Since we know that Christians have not had their old natures eradicated and "the flesh" troubles us daily, it follows that we will sin both knowingly and ignorantly.
There are millions of Christians who haved experienced the second work of grace called entire sanctification. We do not have to be plagued by the flesh on a daily basis. We do live in clay jars in a fallen world. So, I ask again - is stubbing one's toe a sin?

quote:

4. There is only one way to deal with all sins -- confession and repentance. Therefore we must daily confess to God that we have sinned (especially because we may be unaware of this, yet God fully knows). Just as the Lord's Prayer speaks of "daily bread" it also speaks of "daily forgiveness".
Sorry Ezra, but neither Matthew 4 nor Luke 11 speak of "daily confession and forgiveness". This qualifier appears only with bread in the preceeding verse. But I do not wish to derail this thread on exegetical semantics. My question remains - how can we confess and repent for something we are unaware of (to use your terminology)?



DougHorton -> RE: Unintentional Sins - How Are They Forgiven? (5/19/2008 10:43:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

Let's stay on the topic, Doug, which is UNintentional sins of ignorance. Thanks.



I was on topic. Double imputation covers ALL sin, intentional and unintentional. Your welcome.



DougHorton -> RE: Unintentional Sins - How Are They Forgiven? (5/19/2008 10:46:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Heavendweller

Doug,
What ever you may mean by this comment, I hope you realize that believers in Christ are not exempt from actually living holy lives.


Absolutely, but that is the process of sanctification, not justification. We are sanctified as we learn to live holy lives, but we cannot do that until we are justified and forgiven.



DougHorton -> RE: Unintentional Sins - How Are They Forgiven? (5/19/2008 11:03:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread

I must disagree. Neither of those idioms gives glory to Adonai. They just say, to quote Gilda Ratner, "Never mind." It is significant that we were in rebellion. That is why the Accuser will use us as His defense at The Judgement and then Adonai can say to the Accuser, "That sin was paid for by death and you too will recieve the same punishment."


I was restating the teaching of double imputation.

quote:

Easton's Bible Dictionary

Imputation
is used to designate any action or word or thing as reckoned to a person. Thus in doctrinal language (1) the sin of Adam is imputed to all his descendants, i.e., it is reckoned as theirs, and they are dealt with therefore as guilty; (2) the righteousness of Christ is imputed to them that believe in him, or so attributed to them as to be considered their own; and (3) our sins are imputed to Christ, i.e., he assumed our "law-place," undertook to answer the demands of justice for our sins. In all these cases the nature of imputation is the same (Romans 5:12-19; Compare Philemon 1:18,19).



Bluethread -> RE: Unintentional Sins - How Are They Forgiven? (5/19/2008 4:39:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DougHorton

quote:

Easton's Bible Dictionary

Imputation
is used to designate any action or word or thing as reckoned to a person. Thus in doctrinal language (1) the sin of Adam is imputed to all his descendants, i.e., it is reckoned as theirs, and they are dealt with therefore as guilty; (2) the righteousness of Christ is imputed to them that believe in him, or so attributed to them as to be considered their own; and (3) our sins are imputed to Christ, i.e., he assumed our "law-place," undertook to answer the demands of justice for our sins. In all these cases the nature of imputation is the same (Romans 5:12-19; Compare Philemon 1:18,19).



This definition does not say the it is as if it never happened. I would agree with it in regard to inherent nature and acceptance of punishment. However, He became sin on our behalf, not sin on His own account. In the same way, we become the righteousness of Adonai in or through Him. We are still the ones that commited the sins. Though the tears will be wiped away, that fact will not change.



drmark -> RE: Unintentional Sins - How Are They Forgiven? (5/19/2008 5:10:48 PM)

quote:

We are still the ones that commited the sins.
Well stated, Bluethread! This is the great fallacy of "double imputation". There is no Biblical support for the righteousness of Christ being credited (imputed) to us. Rather, it is our faith in His righteousness that is credited (imputed) to us as righteousness.



Heavendweller -> RE: Unintentional Sins - How Are They Forgiven? (5/19/2008 9:59:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark
This is the great fallacy of "double imputation". There is no Biblical support for the righteousness of Christ being credited (imputed) to us. Rather, it is our faith in His righteousness that is credited (imputed) to us as righteousness.

Exactly drmark. And conversely, we don't have guilt over the particular sins that Adam and Eve personally commit, but rather we inherit the state of original sin. Again, we cannot in any way excuse ourselves from living righteous, holy lives by claiming Christ took care of it all for me. This wrong understanding of the imputed righteousness of Christ excuses the believer from any sin committed after regeneration and has the tendency to lean toward an apathetic attitude regarding sin.

Here are some verses that may help to clarify why there are believers in Christ who don't hold to this view of the imputed righteousness of Christ after one has been regenerated.

"You are witnesses, and God also, how holy and righteous and blameless was our behavior to you believers; for you know how, like a father with his children, we exhorted each one of you and encouraged you and charged you to lead a life worthy of God, who calls you into his own kingdom and glory." I Thess. 2:10-12

"He who does right is righteous, as he is righteous. By this it may be seen who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil; whoever does not do right is not of God, nor he who does not love his brother." I John 3:8,10.

"Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to be clothed with fine linen, bright and pure - for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints." Revelation 19:7-8

"Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy. Blessed are those who wash their robes that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates." Revelation 22:10-11, 14.

I wish I could impress upon every Christian that God requires us to actually live upright lives. We have been equipped with all that is necessary in order to be overcomers and to resist the wiles of the evil one. We can have victory over sin because of the grace imparted to us upon regeneration, so that we are being changed into His likeness from one degree of glory to another. We can actually become more and more like our Master Jesus Christ, as we submit ourselves to Him daily.

This is good news!

Heavendweller



Ezra -> RE: Unintentional Sins - How Are They Forgiven? (5/19/2008 10:22:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark
Could you expound on this a little more, Ezra. If we intend to do something (either an action or an inaction), then how could we be "unaware" of our will in this matter? Is stubbing one's toe a sin? That is obviously unintentional, but we are quite aware of the pain in just a few moments.


Note what James says in James 3:2: "For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body".

Have you ever unwittingly offended someone by your remarks? That is the same as being unaware of your offence. You thought you had said the right thing, but you managed to offend someone. This becomes a sin according to James. Therefore it must be confessed and repented of, even though you were not aware of how or why you offended.

quote:

There are millions of Christians who haved experienced the second work of grace called entire sanctification. We do not have to be plagued by the flesh on a daily basis. We do live in clay jars in a fallen world. So, I ask again - is stubbing one's toe a sin?


Since sanctification is progressive, and God's only standard is His own perfection, you have to honestly ask yourself if you have been as perfect and holy as God and the Lord Jesus Christ. If you have missed that mark by a hairsbreadth, then it is time to confess and repent.

quote:

Sorry Ezra, but neither Matthew 4 nor Luke 11 speak of "daily confession and forgiveness". This qualifier appears only with bread in the preceeding verse.


Perhaps you have unwittingly forgotten John 13:6-15. Perhaps you would care to expound on the words of Christ in that passage, and their application to the question of daily confession?



drmark -> RE: Unintentional Sins - How Are They Forgiven? (5/20/2008 10:59:58 AM)

quote:

Have you ever unwittingly offended someone by your remarks? That is the same as being unaware of your offence. You thought you had said the right thing, but you managed to offend someone. This becomes a sin according to James. Therefore it must be confessed and repented of, even though you were not aware of how or why you offended.
I apologize, Ezra, for not making myself any clearer. This example of "unwitting offense" fails to answer the basic question. How do we confess and repent for an action done in unwitting ignorance? Is it sin before we discover that someone felt offended? Did that someone sin by misinterpreting our intention, even though we "said the right thing"? Does it become sin only when we realize the consequence? This soteriology is nonsensical, Ezra, and I personally believe it would lead many Christians into a paralysis of fear about constant "sinning".

quote:

Since sanctification is progressive, and God's only standard is His own perfection, you have to honestly ask yourself if you have been as perfect and holy as God and the Lord Jesus Christ. If you have missed that mark by a hairsbreadth, then it is time to confess and repent.
Once again, this is your understanding of sanctification - mine is different. Christian perfection centers on intent, not performance. As we grow in grace, we should all become more Christ-like in His love and obedience. This is certainly not sin! You have confused stature with state, Ezra.

quote:

Perhaps you have unwittingly forgotten John 13:6-15. Perhaps you would care to expound on the words of Christ in that passage, and their application to the question of daily confession?
So that would be a sin of ignorance, right? Seriously, I do not see what Christ's example of servanthood by foot washing has to do with daily sinning. Would you please expound since you've brought it up.

Actually in John 13:10, Jesus states ""A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean." So why should we be constantly confessing and repenting if our whole body is indeed clean? 1 John tells us that Christ can purify us from all sin and unrighteousness - I take Him at His Word!



rcjames -> RE: Unintentional Sins - How Are They Forgiven? (5/20/2008 11:05:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark
So, my opening questions for consideration are the following: How do we acknowledge, confess, and repent of sins we do not even realize we've committed? Is there a different application or mechanism of grace for forgiveness of sins done in ignorance between the OT Levitical system and the NT Atonement?


I am not so sure one can commit a sin and not be made aware of it by the Holy Ghost.

I do realize that we can sin without realizing it is sin (a too quick response that is hateful or hurtful, etc.); but I also believe the Holy Spirit will bring that to our rememberance.

But that is just me.

Thanks
RC



drmark -> RE: Unintentional Sins - How Are They Forgiven? (5/20/2008 11:29:23 AM)

I tend to agree with you, RC, but when do we become accountable for an unrealized sin? Do you think it's Biblical to confess and repent for sins we are not immediately aware of committing? What would that look like in practical application? The OT Israelites were commanded to perform yearly sacrifices. Will annual confession and repentance for our sins of ignorance suffice?



rcjames -> RE: Unintentional Sins - How Are They Forgiven? (5/20/2008 11:54:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

I tend to agree with you, RC, but when do we become accountable for an unrealized sin? Do you think it's Biblical to confess and repent for sins we are not immediately aware of committing? What would that look like in practical application? The OT Israelites were commanded to perform yearly sacrifices. Will annual confession and repentance for our sins of ignorance suffice?


Well in my mind we definately are accountable for them when we are made aware by the Holy Spirit, either directly or through someone.

Now as to the time laspe between the sin and the awarness, I suppose that will just have to come under God's Grace and the BEMA.

I do not believe that an unconfessed sin in a death sentence, but will bring about judgment in the same way that a wilful sin does. And I am confident that we will be judged by a fair and gracious Judge.

Thanks
RC



drmark -> RE: Unintentional Sins - How Are They Forgiven? (5/20/2008 12:12:51 PM)

Thak you, RC, that makes sense to me!



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