Keeping salvation? (Full Version)

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whatislove -> Keeping salvation? (5/15/2008 4:03:57 AM)

Is there such a thing as working to keep your salvation? I feel like i'm in a battle to keep my salvation. I just see myself as this dirty, unworthy, sinful piece of garbage. I can't find joy in the Lord anymore, I can't find peace, love, or anything. All I find is conviction, despair, and confusion.

Anyone have advice? [&o]



makarizo -> RE: Keeping salvation? (5/15/2008 6:34:51 AM)

I think as the battle of the flesh/spirit wage war, this is not an uncommon experience. I went thru the same thing when I was younger, ... and Paul expresses a similar struggle in Romans 7
Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
.......**and the best verse in chapt 7 is found in 8:1
Rom 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
***


Put your life in Christ hands... surrender to Him and pursue walking in the Spirit. (Gal 5:22)

Php 2:12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;



broken2live4him -> RE: Keeping salvation? (5/15/2008 7:16:01 AM)

hiya whatislove:

I believe you may have forgotten that you are not defined by what you think and how you feel. You are defined by God's definition of you.

The bible states in Romans 8:37 that we are made more than conquerors through Him who loved us.

In Jeremiah 31:3 says "Long ago the Lord said to Israel: I have loved you, my people, with an everlasting love. With unfailing love I have drawn you to myself." The Lord has drawn you to His side as His Child, drawn to Him by His Spirit.

God cares for you so much that Jesus said "Look at the birds. They don't plant or harvest or store food in barns, for your Heavenly Father feeds them. And aren't you far more valuable to him than they are?" (Matthew 6:26)...

Then there is 1 John 1:9 that we take assurance in as children of God which states, "If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." When we sin, we confess our sins to the Lord and move on. Because when we confess our shortcomings/sins to the Lord, He cleanses us.

In Romans 8:1-2, "So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. And because you belong to Him, the power of the Life-Giving Spirit has freed you from the power of sin that leads to death."

You are not bound to the life you lived before Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:17, "Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old is gone and the new has come."

Look at who you are as defined by the Lord. Those are just some Scriptures to meditate on. Read all of Romans chapters 6-8. And remember that He will keep you in perfect peace when your mind is stayed on Him. Don't let satan tear you down making you feel worthless. Jesus Christ paid a high price for you-His life. You are valuable.

Stay in the Word. Meditate and Soak in what the Word says. You are defined as God defines you not by how you see and define yourself. Let God show you who you are and what you are in light of His Word.

Love In Christ



DustyLady -> RE: Keeping salvation? (5/15/2008 7:18:04 AM)

I like the way old Martin Luther put it, in his explanation of the third article of the Apostle's Creed:

"I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith; even as He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian Church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true faith; in which Christian Church He forgives daily and richly all sins to me and all believers, and at the last day will raise up me and all the dead, and will give to me and to all believers in Christ everlasting life. This is most certainly true."

Look closely at the first part of that -- "I CANNOT, by my own reason or strength, believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him." We can't do it by ourselves. We have to rely on the Holy Spirit to lead us and show us the way to go. There's nothing WE can do, in the way of works, that guarantees us a place in heaven.

I look at good works as something I do out of gratitude to God for His many gifts to me. It's not something He requires, but it sure does make Him happy.

And, remember, that He forgives sin -- as long as we come to Him in repentence, and try to mend our ways.

Dusty



iamjc-s -> RE: Keeping salvation? (5/15/2008 9:43:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: whatislove

Is there such a thing as working to keep your salvation? I feel like i'm in a battle to keep my salvation. I just see myself as this dirty, unworthy, sinful piece of garbage. I can't find joy in the Lord anymore, I can't find peace, love, or anything. All I find is conviction, despair, and confusion.

Anyone have advice? [&o]

Work to stay on God's track & He will not only be sure to get you to heaven, but also to portray you as clean to our Heavenly Father.

You may want to pray to God to:
"restore unto me the joy of Thy salvation & renew a right spirit within me"

Hope this helps, God bless.
-



mvic -> RE: Keeping salvation? (5/15/2008 9:48:16 AM)

Hi whatislove

You've put yourself down by using words like dirty, unworthy and garbage. Let me teel you something ... you are unworthy of His love.

In fact we all are. None of us is worthy of His love, and there is nothing we can do to make ourselves worthy or deserving of His love. But He loves us all the same. You, me and everyone else ... yes, even those who don't believe in Him.

So my advice is to accept His love and thank Him for it. Don't try to analyse it or find the reason for it. Accept it as a gift from your Creator. Don't give way to despair and confusion.

And another thought .... if you want to try to repay His love; why not love other people as He has asked you to ... yes, even your enemies.

God bless.



SavedByGraceMD -> RE: Keeping salvation? (5/15/2008 11:59:50 AM)

Hello whatislove,

I don't know how long you have been a believer, but let me tell you something about me which may help.

I actually have known of the Lord for almost all my life. When I was 21 I began questioning why I was here, and I found my way to Jesus. At that time I was engaged, wanted to start a family, and needed something more on my life. So I prayed the prayer, went to church a few times, but that was it. I was living in sin and I think, or I know, I was not ready to change my life, even though I knew I needed to. So I don't think I truly was serious about my belief.

Fast forward 10 years, having been in and out of relationships after my fiance broke up with me, and in and out of jobs I hated. I was dating someone, and she was a great girl, but she broke up with me. I wound up quitting thew job I was at about a week later. The month prior my doctor had told me that I should be dead. But this really didn't hit home til after these other things happened.

At that point I realized that anything I ever do apart from God will fail. Relationships, jobs, and whatever else I may involve myself in. The whole should be dead thing began to take its toll on me, and then it clicked. All of this brought me back to the Lord, and at this point in my life, I was ready to try to be who He wants me to be.

Anyway, this all happened last August, September and October. Since I have been studying my bible, though not as much as I should. Reading as much as I can on topics of faith, going to church(not a much as I should be), and just thanking God everyday for giving me all of those years to come back to Him. I probably should have been dead over 10 years ago. I have a severe case of sleep apnea, I stop breathing in my sleep once every minute, and my body does not take in enough oxygen to sustain my life. Who knows how many accidents I could have caused, since I always was tired behind the wheel. Sorry, getting off track. But even though all this has happened, and I am unshakable in my faith in Jesus, I still struggle. I have many days where I feel so unworthy, but I am not worthy, like mvic said, none of us are.

My point to all this is, don't beat up on yourself, because that is what satan wants you to do. To doubt, to think you are so unworthy that God can't possibly love you. But He does, and He proved it 2000 years ago, when God became flesh and died on the cross. Stay strong, it is a hard and narrow road that we walk, and satan is right there trying to make us fall off, but the good news is, that The Lamb of God is right there to pick you up, and He will never let you go.

Sorry to ramble on, and I hope all this helps you. Take care.

May God bless you and keep you and shine His face upon you.



mindmatters -> RE: Keeping salvation? (5/21/2008 12:51:51 PM)

i would just like to say here that once we become Christians that satan will use our faults to get us distracted so that we cannot express our joy of just being saved by grace, and nothing else. John tells us as Christ told Nicodemus, that he did not come into the world to condemn, but he came so that the world might be saved thru Him.

in john 4, Christ made notice of the woman at the wells lifestyle not to condemn her, but to let her know that he was the messiah she had been looking for, he did not condemn her for her lifestyle, but she went and told the whole town that He was here.

and in John 8, the woman caught in adultery was brought before Christ, guilty. He showed her mercy and told everyone there that the sin in their lives made them no different.

my point is God loves you, and he made it possible to be with Him in eternity. i don't think that your struggle is any different than any Christian at some point in their walk. i think that a lot of times we as Christians begin to see the sin in our lives and know that there is no justification. what i mean by that is once we are saved we start to notice the things in our life that are sin that we may or may not have considered to be wrong before, and we see just how deep our sin goes, and satan exploits it to bring us down and make us feel unworthy, which we are, but it leads us to a point that we see just exactly what Christ did, he took your deepest, darkest thoughts to the cross, and mine as well. God allows this so we can grow.

so the Holy Spirit points out our sin to lead us to confess that sin in our prayer closets, so that we talk with God daily, and as we do that we begin to follow Gods lead, and then our works and thoughts begin to improve, but will never totally go away because we are flesh, but certainly can improve.

don't know how long you have been a Christian, but this is something i went through as well. so hope my experience with this helps you.



terryjohn -> RE: Keeping salvation? (5/24/2008 4:53:39 PM)

The thing is, that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. So, how much more will He love us if He lives? Will anything seperate us from the love of God apart from our own feelings of unworthiness?

As a father I understand how our Father in heaven can love a son who is not always at his best. You see fathers do love their sons and they love them not because they are the best or greatest sons in the world but simply becasue they are his and his alone. As a loving father I too freely forgive my son many things he never even sees as being wrong but as my son grows up in my care and love he begins to see my love and concern and I rejoice in his love for me. He still isn't perfect but he is mine and that makes all the difference when it comes to love, forgiveness, acceptance, fellowship and rejoicing.

Rejoice in your Fathers love for your despite your imperfections for you were not chosen for your perfection's sake but by by His unmeritted love.

We all try to be so good when all that is required of us is to love and when we learn how to love we begin to see how hard it is to sin. For love covers a multitude of sins.



GraceBro -> RE: Keeping salvation? (5/24/2008 6:18:49 PM)

Hi whatislove,

First, you must realize that your salvation wasn't something you earned to begin with, much less something you have to keep. Your salvation was purchased, and is now secured, by Jesus Christ, who keeps it in heaven for you.

"Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade—kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time." 1 Peter 1:3-5

Secondly, you must begin to see yourself as God sees you. When He looks at you He doesn't see a dirty, unworthy, sinful piece of garbage. That is what you were, if you will, before you accepted Christ and became a child of God.

"And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." 1 Corinthians 6:11

Finally, your inability to find any joy is the result of you working for your salvation and not seeing yourself as God sees you. Because of your faith in Christ, you have peace with God...

"Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ..." Romans 5:1

and you are totally loved by Him.

"And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God." Ephesians 3:17-19

Therefore, because of what Christ has done, you are totally accepted by God.

"Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God." Romans 15:7

It is these truths that will set you free from the bondage of self-effort as you try to obtain what can only be received through faith.

"Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?" Galatians 3:5

I believe you can answer this question better after your experience.

Grace and Peace



loveineffable -> RE: Keeping salvation? (5/26/2008 2:18:49 PM)

try this, first realise, beacause of what he has done, for you, through your belief in him you are saved. and forgiven. he has throught e cross supplied you with mercy complete. receive it from him ask oyu will be given.

then go out in response and love others because you are loved, forgive others because you are forgiven, show others God, for he has shown himself to you.
In the old testament, we had to forgive to get forgiven, under the old covenant, we had to love in order to be loved
Now read Hebrews 9:15, 16, we are no longer under the old we are under the new
than k God first and formost in all things, seeking to be taught by him, thus reacting in love, for he does love you unconditionally, people do not but he does.
Also remember the new and old covenant change took place at Christ's deaqth on the cross.
So all his works, sayings, all was under the old covenant, even though they are recorded in the new testament. All you read prior to his cross was in and under the old covenant.
ineffable love



rileykins -> RE: Keeping salvation? (5/27/2008 4:30:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: whatislove

Is there such a thing as working to keep your salvation? I feel like i'm in a battle to keep my salvation. I just see myself as this dirty, unworthy, sinful piece of garbage. I can't find joy in the Lord anymore, I can't find peace, love, or anything. All I find is conviction, despair, and confusion.

Anyone have advice? [&o]


There is such a thing as working to keep your salvation, but only in the minds of those who don't know better because they have been taught wrongly that it's up to them to keep themselves saved. The battle for your salvation has already been fought and won for you in and through Christ Jesus. It's He alone who has saved you, and it's He alone who keeps you saved. My advice is get off the treadmill of trying to keep yourself saved. If you are in a church that teaches that you can lose your salvation, leave it, and find one that teaches the sound doctrine of eternal security. God doesn't see you as a dirty, filthy piece of garbage. You need to find out the truth of just how God does see you. In Christ you are washed, you are justified, you are sanctified, you are called a saint, you are clothed in His righteousness, sealed in Him for all of eternity, a member of His body, complete in Christ, accepted in the Beloved. Let the truth of who God has made you in His Son become your reality, and begin to see yourself as God does and you'll find the joy of your salvation returning to you once again. Renew your mind in all that God says you are in His Son and believe what He says about you as one who is redeemed, forgiven, complete and accepted in the Beloved.
rileykins



cognitivemagic -> RE: Keeping salvation? (5/27/2008 7:12:31 PM)

No, you are not alone in this. I spent 16 years in this state of thinking and almost didn't make it through. Fortunately, God is merciful.

Perhaps one way to help is to see other saints, especially in the scripture, as people who also had similar experiences:

David in the Psalms, especially in Psalm 22 and 51. Perhaps making the Psalm 51 prayer a daily prayer for yourself, might help.

Or Job, especially chapters 29-31. Read Chapter 30, especially.

Talking to others, and maybe seeing a doctor, could also help your situation.

Remember: your thoughts and feelings are not the center of truth. God did not send His Son so that some people--healthy people--would get well. He sent His Son to help all people, especially people who aren't well. That's just what the Great Physician did and does.

"Blessed are the poor in spirit..."



rcjames -> RE: Keeping salvation? (5/29/2008 3:00:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: iamjc-s
Work to stay on God's track & He will not only be sure to get you to heaven, but also to portray you as clean to our Heavenly Father.

You may want to pray to God to:
"restore unto me the joy of Thy salvation & renew a right spirit within me"

Hope this helps, God bless.
-


Or you might try salvation.

There is a possibility that you are like the wannabes in Matthew 7.

Thanks
RC



JesKlu -> RE: Keeping salvation? (6/4/2008 10:48:51 PM)

Hello DustyLady!

I entirely agree with what you have quoted from Martin Luther. You chose well. In choosing the words you have chosen I also believe that "we, cannot by our own reason and strength believe in Jesus Christ, our Lord, and come to Him."

Rileykins,

I will have to disagree witrh you about eternal security. We definately can lose our salvation if we leave the faith and go to another gospel that is truly not a gospel at all, because the Apostle Paul talks about that in the book of Galatians, that they have left grace, to go to another gospel. So yes, we can, lose our salvation. But, if we keep in repentence, and a God pleasing life, and remain faithful to Him, we will finish the race and God will take us home. Remeber the formula; we have been saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved. Past, present, and future.

Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica



MrFribbles -> RE: Keeping salvation? (6/4/2008 11:11:53 PM)

quote:

We definately can lose our salvation if we leave the faith and go to another gospel that is truly not a gospel at all


How do we measure that, though? In my mind, any time we sin, we are telling God by our actions, "I know your way, but I want my way instead!" So where is the line drawn between following our way instead of God's ("normal" sin; lying, stealing, impure thoughts, etc.), and following another Gospel?



SovereignIsHe -> RE: Keeping salvation? (6/5/2008 12:14:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JesKlu

Hello DustyLady!

I entirely agree with what you have quoted from Martin Luther. You chose well. In choosing the words you have chosen I also believe that "we, cannot by our own reason and strength believe in Jesus Christ, our Lord, and come to Him."

Rileykins,

I will have to disagree witrh you about eternal security. We definately can lose our salvation if we leave the faith and go to another gospel that is truly not a gospel at all, because the Apostle Paul talks about that in the book of Galatians, that they have left grace, to go to another gospel. So yes, we can, lose our salvation. But, if we keep in repentence, and a God pleasing life, and remain faithful to Him, we will finish the race and God will take us home. Remeber the formula; we have been saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved. Past, present, and future.

Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica


The formula you speak of sounds like salvation via works...

John
Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:



rileykins -> RE: Keeping salvation? (6/5/2008 11:22:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JesKlu

Rileykins,

I will have to disagree witrh you about eternal security. We definately can lose our salvation if we leave the faith and go to another gospel that is truly not a gospel at all, because the Apostle Paul talks about that in the book of Galatians, that they have left grace, to go to another gospel. So yes, we can, lose our salvation. But, if we keep in repentence, and a God pleasing life, and remain faithful to Him, we will finish the race and God will take us home. Remeber the formula; we have been saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved. Past, present, and future.

Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica


Hi Jesku
I think when Paul talks about falling from grace he isn't speaking of believers losing their salvation. He's talking about believers who place themselves back under law as their means of living the Christian life after having begun in the Spirit. The Lord through Paul calls this foolishness.

O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Before the Galatians decided to place themselves under the law they were experiencing the joy that came with their salvation. They loved Paul so much that they would have given him their oun eyes. But after they went back under the law, they came to see Paul as their enemy. Paul asks them what happened to the blessedness ye spake of? Where had their joy gone? This is what happens when believers place themselves under the law. They get very grumpy. They soon lose the joy of their salvation, they like to judge other believers appointing themselves as fruit inspectors, they come to see the gospel of grace as something foreign if not downright heresy accusing those who preach grace through faith and faith alone as teaching a liscense to sin, among other things. They come to see themselves as trangressors, or as whatislove has come to experience, "dirty, unworthy, sinful piece of garbage."

Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if [it had been] possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.
Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

The Galatians did indeed trade in the gospel of the grace of God which Paul taught and under which they had been joyously saved for another gospel. A "gospel" that placed believers back under the law and which rendered their effectiveness and ability to produce real fruit to God's glory practically null and void. They had become estranged from Christ as their means of living a life pleasing to God. This doesn't mean they lost their salvation, but only that their walk as believers would be rendered ineffective. It's no wonder that believers today who have fallen for the error of Galatianism feel frustrated, ineffective, like pieces of dirty sinful garbage. This is the result of what happens when believers place themselves under a law keeping perfomance based system, instead of simply trusting Christ in them their hope of glory to live His life through them. The life we now live in the flesh, we live by the faith of the Son of God who loved us and gave himself for us. God didn't give us a formula to live by. God didn't give us rules and regulations. God didn't give us a religion. God gave us one thing and one thing only, His Son. And in Christ Jesus and in Him alone has God freely given us everything we will ever need for life and godliness.

In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. 1John 4:9

Until you get the issue of eternal security, justification through faith and faith alone once and for all settled in your mind and come to the truth of the knowledge that we can never lose our salvation, you will be left feeling like it's up to you to keep yourself saved, you will always be falling short of the mark and thinking that you are nothing but a sinful piece of garbage, never sure that you are completely forgiven. That's not the way God wants His children to be living.

rileykins



Heavendweller -> RE: Keeping salvation? (6/8/2008 3:50:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JesKlu
we have been saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved. Past, present, and future.

Jessica,

Yes, Yes, and Yes!

Heavendweller



Heavendweller -> RE: Keeping salvation? (6/8/2008 4:04:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
The formula you speak of sounds like salvation via works...

Dear John,

Yes, there are things we must do, things which God requires of us as Christians in order to continue in His grace. We can indeed grieve the Holy Spirit to such an extent that we fall away. We can also become arrogant and think God will never cut us off no matter what sin we commit. The Apostle Paul warned us in Romans ch. 11 that we can suffer the fate of the Israelites who were cut off if we do not remain faithful and steadfast.

We can indeed turn away from Christ and become as the sow who wallowed in the mud or the pig who returned to its vomit. I have met people like this, who once professed faith in Christ and turned away. They now live as enemies of the cross. Truly sad. And yet while they live, there is still hope that they may repent and return to their Heavenly Father as the Prodigal son did. This is what I pray for regarding my son, who now lives in opposition to the gospel of Christ.

Heavendweller



SovereignIsHe -> RE: Keeping salvation? (6/8/2008 5:06:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Heavendweller


Yes, there are things we must do, things which God requires of us as Christians in order to continue in His grace.



His grace is the means in which man continues in His grace... Anything else is nothing but man beating his chest and proclaiming himself like God... Pure vanity...

John



eschatologist -> RE: Keeping salvation? (6/8/2008 7:10:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: whatislove

Is there such a thing as working to keep your salvation? I feel like i'm in a battle to keep my salvation. I just see myself as this dirty, unworthy, sinful piece of garbage. I can't find joy in the Lord anymore, I can't find peace, love, or anything. All I find is conviction, despair, and confusion.

Anyone have advice? [&o]


No. There's no such a thing as working to keep your salvation. Jesus bought and paid for your Salvation. It's a free gift of God and you can't lose it once you have it, as the following verses indicate:

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and he that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out".

I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.

For He hath said, I will never leave thee nor forsake thee.



Heavendweller -> RE: Keeping salvation? (6/8/2008 7:28:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe"]His grace is the means in which man continues in His grace... Anything else is nothing but man beating his chest and proclaiming himself like God... Pure vanity...



Dear John,
Since I know that you have regard for Holy Scripture, I will encourage you to meditate upon the following passages.

"If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it." St. Matthew 16:24-25
(St. Mark 8:34)

"And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me." St. Luke9:23

"Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple." St. Luke 14:27

"Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in His love." St. John 15: 4-6, & 10

"For he will render to every man according to his works; to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek." Romans 2:6-11

"And we are his house if we hold fast our confidence and pride in our hope" Hebrews 3:6

"Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, that no one fall by the same sort of disobedience." Hebrews 4:11

"Put off your old nature which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful lusts, and be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and put on the new nature, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness." Ephesians 4:22-24

"Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. Stand therefore, having girded your loins with truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, and having shod your feet with the equipment of the gospel of peace; besides all these, taking the shield of faith, with which you can quench the flaming darts of the evil one. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. Pray at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance," Ephesians ch. 6

"Finally brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is gracious, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. What you have seen in me, do; and the God of peace will be with you." Philippians 4:8 & 9

"But be doers of the word and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves." St. James 1:22

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." St. James 2:24

"So as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead." St. James 2:26

"For this reason make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, ans steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. For if these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For whoever lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins." II Peter 1:5-9

"He who says "I know him" but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him; he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked." I John 2:4-6

"Little children, let us not love in word and speech but in deed and in truth." I John 3:18

"Be faithful unto death and I will give you the crown of life." Revelation 2:11

"He who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, I will give him power over the nations," Revelation 2:26

"Awake, and strengthen what remains and is on the point of death, for I have not found your works perfect in the sight of my God. Remember then what you received and heard; keep that, and repent. If you will not awake, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come upon you." Revelation 3:2-3

"He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." Revelation 3:5-6

"I know your works. Behold, I have set before you an open door, which no one is able to shut; I know that you have but little power, and yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name." Revelation 3:8

"I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and nether cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth. Those whom I love, I reprove and chasten; so be zealous and repent." Revelation 3:15 -16, 19.

"Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to be clothed in with fine linen, bright and pure - for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints." Revelation 19:7-8

Seems that the Christian life and the believer who would live as a genuine Christian is not stagnant nor inactive whatsoever.

Heavendweller



SovereignIsHe -> RE: Keeping salvation? (6/9/2008 12:33:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Heavendweller

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe"]His grace is the means in which man continues in His grace... Anything else is nothing but man beating his chest and proclaiming himself like God... Pure vanity...



Dear John,
Since I know that you have regard for Holy Scripture, I will encourage you to meditate upon the following passages.

"If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it." St. Matthew 16:24-25
(St. Mark 8:34)

"And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me." St. Luke9:23

"Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple." St. Luke 14:27

"Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in His love." St. John 15: 4-6, & 10

"For he will render to every man according to his works; to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek." Romans 2:6-11

"And we are his house if we hold fast our confidence and pride in our hope" Hebrews 3:6

"Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, that no one fall by the same sort of disobedience." Hebrews 4:11

"Put off your old nature which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful lusts, and be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and put on the new nature, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness." Ephesians 4:22-24

"Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. Stand therefore, having girded your loins with truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, and having shod your feet with the equipment of the gospel of peace; besides all these, taking the shield of faith, with which you can quench the flaming darts of the evil one. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. Pray at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance," Ephesians ch. 6

"Finally brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is gracious, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. What you have seen in me, do; and the God of peace will be with you." Philippians 4:8 & 9

"But be doers of the word and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves." St. James 1:22

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." St. James 2:24

"So as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead." St. James 2:26

"For this reason make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, ans steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. For if these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For whoever lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins." II Peter 1:5-9

"He who says "I know him" but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him; he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked." I John 2:4-6

"Little children, let us not love in word and speech but in deed and in truth." I John 3:18

"Be faithful unto death and I will give you the crown of life." Revelation 2:11

"He who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, I will give him power over the nations," Revelation 2:26

"Awake, and strengthen what remains and is on the point of death, for I have not found your works perfect in the sight of my God. Remember then what you received and heard; keep that, and repent. If you will not awake, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come upon you." Revelation 3:2-3

"He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." Revelation 3:5-6

"I know your works. Behold, I have set before you an open door, which no one is able to shut; I know that you have but little power, and yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name." Revelation 3:8

"I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and nether cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth. Those whom I love, I reprove and chasten; so be zealous and repent." Revelation 3:15 -16, 19.

"Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to be clothed in with fine linen, bright and pure - for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints." Revelation 19:7-8

Seems that the Christian life and the believer who would live as a genuine Christian is not stagnant nor inactive whatsoever.

Heavendweller



Christians can only do because God does...

1 Corinthians 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

John



Heavendweller -> RE: Keeping salvation? (6/9/2008 11:56:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Christians can only do because God does...

1 Corinthians 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

John,
Yes, most definitely grace is necessary for us to accomplish our "spiritual worship." But as seen in this passage, the Apostle Paul was not static or inactive. It is a both/and situation. We must cooperate with grace in order to serve God. We are not puppets waiting for the puppetier to forcebly move us. Rather, we have been given actual grace as His children to become partakers of His divine nature.

Since being regenerated, we have the ability to live responsibly because we have been enlightened. Yes, God opened our eyes but now we must continue to live according to that sight. "To whom much is given, is much required," Jesus said. In being told to do certain things as Christians, it is already understood that we have been equipped with the empowering of the Holy Spirit by the grace of God.

Nonetheless, we must pick up our own cross daily and fight the good fight of the faith. We must recognize who we are as Christians and not wait idly by to be overpowered by the Spirit. We already have the Spirit of God. Now we need to live like Christians. The warnings to the churches in Revelation is a warning to all Christians down through the ages. The warnings in the letters and gospels is a warning to us. We can become lazy and ineffective for the Kingdom of God. We can even bring scandal upon the people of God. And we can fall away and risk being cut off as St. Paul so clearly states in Romans 11:22.

We are ably equipped to pick up our cross daily. Jesus did not say I will pick it up, but rather commanded us to pick it up. We must love our neighbor and our brothers and sisters in Christ. We do not do this naturally. It is something we must choose to do, for love is an act of the will. I can say I love someone all I want, but I must proove it by my actions. Again, whereas our love was incomplete and faulty prior to being His children, now we have a relationship with the lover of our souls who can indeed help us to love. All the things we must do in Ephesians 6 are necessary in order to fight the good fight of the faith. And they are things we must discipline ourselves to do. Yes, discipline is required of us and responsibility as well. We are not to act like brats or indolent children who think they deserve all the blessings of God without lifting a finger.

In saying all this, I most assuredly recognize that we cannot do anything apart from Him, as can be seen in the parable of the vine and branches in St. John 15. But there are some things God will not do for us. We must pick up the Holy Scriptures and read them. He will not do that for us. And thus it is, how surprised I am that many Christians do not know what the Word of God says. They got saved and well, that's it. We must pray, and might I add, beginning the day with prayer is most essential. We must love our spouse, even when he/she is not acting lovable. We must put to death the deeds of the flesh. When I am being tempted to envy another, I must run to God and cast myself at His feet to help me in this struggle. We must turn away from evil. When we are tempted to walk into a place of ill-repute, or watch an X rated film, or get drunk with alcohol, or take drugs we are faced with a decision. It is during these times that we must cast ourselves upon Him, and seek Him each day to help us overcome sin and have the victory.

In this struggle, we can be tempted to give up. But if we call to mind that God has supplied us with the Holy Spirit, the sword of the Spirit, the fellowship and communion of saints, we can be reassured that we are able to be victors in Christ.

To be lazy, idle, stagnant, and somehow think we can still pass as Christians cannot fool God. If we claim we are saved, but continually commit sinful acts which He called us out of, then claiming the imputed righteousness of Christ is deceitful. And God will not be mocked. For to whatever a man sows, to that he must also reap. (I do not speak here os someone who has faltered, but gets up again. Rather I speak of someone who calls himself/herself a Christian and practices sin regularly.

So we plead the mercy of our Lord Jesus, and we give ourselves to Him everyday. This is a personal relationship with Christ. Living in Him, loving Him, seeking His strength and guidance, and refraining from sinful deeds from which we were saved. We are not the world and we must live as children who are in the light.

Heavendweller



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