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How do you define "objectifying"?

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ORIGINAL: Ah-pappapishu

When you hear the phrase "objectifying women", what do you think? What do you feel?

How do you define "objectifying"?

What is "objectifying"? Is it good, bad, amoral?

Are there parallel phenomena among women?

Is "objectifying" natural? Unnatural? Is it pervasive, does it exist among all men in all cultures settings and situations?

Just throwing this topic out there. I read an article on catcalls on CNN recently and it made me think.

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ORIGINAL: Ah-pappapishu

Well, I believe all men objectify women, simply because it is wired into masculine thinking. We are conceptual thinkers and view things in a predominantly spatial sphere.

So what you're saying is that men are incapable of seeing woman as people, and are "wired" to see and treat us as inhuman "things"? Sorry, dude... thats a cop-out.....And frankly, if I was a man, I'd be pretty insulted that you consider your own gender incapable of fair consideration.

It surprised me that the article, just like a lot of women who discuss this topic with me- totally ignored or were unaware of this fundamental truth.


Truth? What truth? Men are spacially wired.... ok... no big secret there... and this is supposed to be a legitimate reason to view another human being as a thing?

Objectification is by no means a bad thing. But perhaps emotional neglect combined with tyrannous objectification is the true problem that women face.

So, you're saying that its ok for a man to view his wife or daughter or love interest as an object as long as he doesn't emotionally neglect her? You do realize, of course, that when you objectify someone, it becomes much easier to become tyrannical towards them because, in its most basic sense, objectification is essentially seeing another human being, not as a person, but an object. And objects are disposible.... they don't have feelings... they are owned.... you see where I'm going with this?

Add to that the "objective" power that not just dominates masculine thinking, reasoning and actions, but also drives male libido and brings about sexual satisfaction.

All I can say is thank God my husband doesn't think this way. And to be honest - if I were a single woman and saw this, I'd take a vow of celibacy. This would scare me to death.

In fact, all things considered, I think women should understand and appreciate objectification, being a wholly natural and instinctive masculine tendency, and consciously steer the discussion towards the proper role, guidelines and management of this tendency.

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ORIGINAL: CheshireMuse

No person, male or female, should be treated or looked upon as an object. A person is NOT an object, and should not be treated as such.

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ORIGINAL: CheshireMuse

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ORIGINAL: Ah-pappapishu

Well, I believe all men objectify women, simply because it is wired into masculine thinking. We are conceptual thinkers and view things in a predominantly spatial sphere.

So what you're saying is that men are incapable of seeing woman as people, and are "wired" to see and treat us as inhuman "things"? Sorry, dude... thats a cop-out.....And frankly, if I was a man, I'd be pretty insulted that you consider your own gender incapable of fair consideration.

Absolutely not. I didn't mention anywhere that spatial thinking is the exclusive and only way a man processes things. I did say however, that it is predominant, ie it usually comes first, and it's usually stronger than the other senses, at least initially. [And I'm gonna stick to that story. :D]


I mentioned previously about how I defined objectification, at least for the purpose of this topic. It's more to do with how men process things mentally.

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It surprised me that the article, just like a lot of women who discuss this topic with me- totally ignored or were unaware of this fundamental truth.


Truth? What truth? Men are spacially wired.... ok... no big secret there... and this is supposed to be a legitimate reason to view another human being as a thing?

Umm, yes. Of course, denying other aspects of another human being is inexcusable. However if one were aware of the fact that "Men are spatially wired", I think they would be less likely to condemn it outright, all but calling for its extinction. Not just in the article, but in society and the media in general.

But maybe my perception is wrong. You tell me.

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Objectification is by no means a bad thing. But perhaps emotional neglect combined with tyrannous objectification is the true problem that women face.

So, you're saying that its ok for a man to view his wife or daughter or love interest as an object as long as he doesn't emotionally neglect her? You do realize, of course, that when you objectify someone, it becomes much easier to become tyrannical towards them because, in its most basic sense, objectification is essentially seeing another human being, not as a person, but an object. And objects are disposible.... they don't have feelings... they are owned.... you see where I'm going with this?

That's not what I said. I said that the true problem women faced was possibly emotional neglect combined with tyrannous objectification. If one cares for another individual, they would not resort to do something which hurts or offends them. Even if a construction worker felt like cat-calling [is that the right grammar? My english is poor], he would not do it if he cared for a womans feelings. I'm assuming that would cover women getting offended.

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Add to that the "objective" power that not just dominates masculine thinking, reasoning and actions, but also drives male libido and brings about sexual satisfaction.

All I can say is thank God my husband doesn't think this way. And to be honest - if I were a single woman and saw this, I'd take a vow of celibacy. This would scare me to death.

Could it be, perhaps that you don't know what he really thinks?

Honestly, I think this issue for guys lies in a very instinctive, almost unconscious realm. There is no logical choice, decision or reasoning behind it. It's just natural programming. Or unnatural programming.

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In fact, all things considered, I think women should understand and appreciate objectification, being a wholly natural and instinctive masculine tendency, and consciously steer the discussion towards the proper role, guidelines and management of this tendency.



We should APPRECIATE being turned into an object??? Are you serious? The fact that you really don't see how degrading this is to women (or anyone) kinda scares me.

I hope I clarified things a little bit so that you understand what I'm saying a bit better. If your still scared, I will pray for you. :D

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ORIGINAL: miasma

...the objectification of women involves disregarding personal abilities and capabilities, and focusing instead on attributes relevant to women's role as sexual partners, such as physical attractiveness, sex appeal, and submissiveness.

~~~

Killing Us Softly pt. 1

part 2

part 3

part 4

~~~~

The findings from the two studies suggest that even exposure to seemingly innocuous sexually suggestive ads can lead to disturbing antifemale sentiments such as objectification.

~~~

Extensive research has demonstrated the negative results of female objectification in the media. Depression, appearance anxiety, body shame, sexual dysfunction, and eating disorders are only a few among the growing list of repercussions (Fredrickson & Noll, 1997).

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ORIGINAL: Ah-pappapishu

Prepare for a quotefest

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ORIGINAL: CheshireMuse

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ORIGINAL: Ah-pappapishu

Well, I believe all men objectify women, simply because it is wired into masculine thinking. We are conceptual thinkers and view things in a predominantly spatial sphere.

So what you're saying is that men are incapable of seeing woman as people, and are "wired" to see and treat us as inhuman "things"? Sorry, dude... thats a cop-out.....And frankly, if I was a man, I'd be pretty insulted that you consider your own gender incapable of fair consideration.

Absolutely not. I didn't mention anywhere that spatial thinking is the exclusive and only way a man processes things. I did say however, that it is predominant, ie it usually comes first, and it's usually stronger than the other senses, at least initially. [And I'm gonna stick to that story. :D]


I mentioned previously about how I defined objectification, at least for the purpose of this topic. It's more to do with how men process things mentally.

quote:


It surprised me that the article, just like a lot of women who discuss this topic with me- totally ignored or were unaware of this fundamental truth.


Truth? What truth? Men are spacially wired.... ok... no big secret there... and this is supposed to be a legitimate reason to view another human being as a thing?

Umm, yes. Of course, denying other aspects of another human being is inexcusable. However if one were aware of the fact that "Men are spatially wired", I think they would be less likely to condemn it outright, all but calling for its extinction. Not just in the article, but in society and the media in general.

But maybe my perception is wrong. You tell me.

quote:


Objectification is by no means a bad thing. But perhaps emotional neglect combined with tyrannous objectification is the true problem that women face.

So, you're saying that its ok for a man to view his wife or daughter or love interest as an object as long as he doesn't emotionally neglect her? You do realize, of course, that when you objectify someone, it becomes much easier to become tyrannical towards them because, in its most basic sense, objectification is essentially seeing another human being, not as a person, but an object. And objects are disposible.... they don't have feelings... they are owned.... you see where I'm going with this?

That's not what I said. I said that the true problem women faced was possibly emotional neglect combined with tyrannous objectification. If one cares for another individual, they would not resort to do something which hurts or offends them. Even if a construction worker felt like cat-calling [is that the right grammar? My english is poor], he would not do it if he cared for a womans feelings. I'm assuming that would cover women getting offended.

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Add to that the "objective" power that not just dominates masculine thinking, reasoning and actions, but also drives male libido and brings about sexual satisfaction.

All I can say is thank God my husband doesn't think this way. And to be honest - if I were a single woman and saw this, I'd take a vow of celibacy. This would scare me to death.

Could it be, perhaps that you don't know what he really thinks?

Honestly, I think this issue for guys lies in a very instinctive, almost unconscious realm. There is no logical choice, decision or reasoning behind it. It's just natural programming. Or unnatural programming.

quote:


In fact, all things considered, I think women should understand and appreciate objectification, being a wholly natural and instinctive masculine tendency, and consciously steer the discussion towards the proper role, guidelines and management of this tendency.



We should APPRECIATE being turned into an object??? Are you serious? The fact that you really don't see how degrading this is to women (or anyone) kinda scares me.

I hope I clarified things a little bit so that you understand what I'm saying a bit better. If your still scared, I will pray for you. :D

I've read over your response several times, because I wanted to be sure I understood what you were trying to say.

My opinion is that you're playing with words. The definition of "objectify" is to "turn into or view as an object".... you concurred.

The view you've presented comes off as a rationalization for poor behavior. You can believe what you want to believe, and "objectify" women to your heart's content (and if you can get them to tolerate it, more power to you)..... but, for the record - women are people, not objects (that ham-handed comment about everyone being objects is just silly - people are NOT objects).

As for my husband and his "secret" objectification of me? Are you Miss Cleo or something? You don't know me, much less my husband. I am my husband's equal, and his partner.... not his possession. He does not view me as a thing, he views me as his wife and fellow human being.

And, yes, men who think like you DO scare me....personal experience has taught me to be VERY wary of men with your particular views. I always feel like, in your eyes, women aren't quite human. I appreciate the offer to pray for me, but if its all the same to you, I'd rather you didn't. I have no need of it.

_____________________________

Peace,
Muse

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ORIGINAL: Ah-pappapishu

Well, I believe all men objectify women, simply because it is wired into masculine thinking. We are conceptual thinkers and view things in a predominantly spatial sphere.

It surprised me that the article, just like a lot of women who discuss this topic with me- totally ignored or were unaware of this fundamental truth.

Objectification is by no means a bad thing. But perhaps emotional neglect combined with tyrannous objectification is the true problem that women face.

Add to that the "objective" power that not just dominates masculine thinking, reasoning and actions, but also drives male libido and brings about sexual satisfaction.

In fact, all things considered, I think women should understand and appreciate objectification, being a wholly natural and instinctive masculine tendency, and consciously steer the discussion towards the proper role, guidelines and management of this tendency.

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I am referring to its true definition, by which I mean "to view as an object", ie to value the physical nature of something, especially erotically, but also otherwise.

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I could start by saying that I believe male sexual arousal in itself is spatial, and is derived fundamentally through objectifying what is before them. Without "objectification" in the proper sense of the word, male sexuality would cease to exist, at least in it's current state. I'm no scientist, but I believe this is the case for most men all over the world, and the prevalence of visual pornography among other things makes a case for that.

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Now when I say objectifying, I don't mean the pop-culture definition, with all the presuppositions attached to it. I am referring to its true definition, by which I mean "to view as an object", ie to value the physical nature of something, especially erotically, but also otherwise.------

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ORIGINAL: ebony101

"The Holy Spirit fills us with power, love & self-control."2 Timothy 1:7

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ORIGINAL: car2ner

Ah-p, thank you for giving me the link. I know that some guys are just clueless and don't really mean harm. Personally, if I know I look good and I get eyeballed (yes I notice) I don't mind. I understand that guys do that even if they mean no harm. Catcalling is unwanted, though. When I know I am looking dumpy with no attempt to look alluring, catcalls are down right insulting. Some have even sounded like a quick drive-by verbal rape!

As far as men looking at women as objects, that is the first response. It happens. Men are wired this way, true. It is what happens after the the first few thoughts that counts.

Or as I told my husband, looking once if fine. Stopping to drool is another thing.

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ORIGINAL: CheshireMuse

I've read over your response several times, because I wanted to be sure I understood what you were trying to say.

My opinion is that you're playing with words. The definition of "objectify" is to "turn into or view as an object".... you concurred.

The view you've presented comes off as a rationalization for poor behavior. You can believe what you want to believe, and "objectify" women to your heart's content (and if you can get them to tolerate it, more power to you)..... but, for the record - women are people, not objects (that ham-handed comment about everyone being objects is just silly - people are NOT objects).

As for my husband and his "secret" objectification of me? Are you Miss Cleo or something? You don't know me, much less my husband. I am my husband's equal, and his partner.... not his possession. He does not view me as a thing, he views me as his wife and fellow human being.

And, yes, men who think like you DO scare me....personal experience has taught me to be VERY wary of men with your particular views. I always feel like, in your eyes, women aren't quite human. I appreciate the offer to pray for me, but if its all the same to you, I'd rather you didn't. I have no need of it.

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ORIGINAL: WhiteRoseBlessings

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ORIGINAL: Ah-pappapishu

Well, I believe all men objectify women, simply because it is wired into masculine thinking. We are conceptual thinkers and view things in a predominantly spatial sphere.

It surprised me that the article, just like a lot of women who discuss this topic with me- totally ignored or were unaware of this fundamental truth.

Objectification is by no means a bad thing. But perhaps emotional neglect combined with tyrannous objectification is the true problem that women face.

Add to that the "objective" power that not just dominates masculine thinking, reasoning and actions, but also drives male libido and brings about sexual satisfaction.

In fact, all things considered, I think women should understand and appreciate objectification, being a wholly natural and instinctive masculine tendency, and consciously steer the discussion towards the proper role, guidelines and management of this tendency.

I truly, truly hope I never meet you in person.

So only men's perceptions, concepts and thoughts are fundamental truths? What about women's perceptions, concepts and thoughts?

There are not enough words to adequately describe how truly repulsive I find the, uhm, theories, of this OP.

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ORIGINAL: Ah-pappapishu

I believe that one needs a little bit of both to find the right balance in the walk of life. I think this is at least part of the reason why men need women, and women need men, and God has allowed the unique attributes of men and women to come together in love and unity to forge families, communities, societies and nations.

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ORIGINAL: Auben

I don't like objectification, nor do I think that it's a natural state specific to the male gender.

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I am referring to its true definition, by which I mean "to view as an object", ie to value the physical nature of something, especially erotically, but also otherwise.

Be careful about claiming the 'true definition' of something without pulling out the OED.

Objectify does mean "to view as an object" (or as my unabridged dictionary says "to cause something to assume the character of an object"). It does not mean 'to value the physical nature.' Viewing something as an object does not imply that you either approve or disapprove it.

Let's examine that for a moment. Objectification is not the approval of someone's physical nature. It is the seeing something or someone as you would view an object (an object being "a visible and tangible material product or substance." ie objects are not animate beings). Objects are passive. Objects are not equal to the person viewing them. Objects do not feel pain or embarrassment or joy or tenderness. Objects simply exist.

All human beings react first to physical characteristics. This is scientifically proven. Initially we have little data other than what our eyes can see. This is true for both men and women.

The difference between objectification and this initial reaction is that objectification does not move past that initial response into understanding and empathy for the other person.

Very few women like cat calls. Very few like suggestive comments or sexual banter or touching in a public place, ESPECIALLY by strangers. Objectification here is the inability for a man (or men) to move past his initial physical reaction and fantasy. The woman is not a person who might be embarrassed or angry or frightened. The action centers on what the man wants/thinks. The woman's wants are not imagined unless they coincide or otherwise bolster the male fantasy.

So yes, women have a problem with being objectified. The bedrock of the female psyche is empathy. To merely be decoration in your fantasies is not only frustrating but disgusting. No matter how much you dress it up as a compliment it will never be one to us. Perhaps other men will appreciate it better than we do.

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Main Entry:
1ob·ject
Pronunciation:
\ˈäb-jikt, -(ˌ)jekt\
Function:
noun
1 a: something material that may be perceived by the senses <I see an object in the distance> b: something that when viewed stirs a particular emotion (as pity) <look to the tragic loading of this bed…the object poisons sight; let it be hid — Shakespeare>