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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/24/2008 10:09:28 PM
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Ephesians4_32
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
In fact the heart of irresistible grace is the transforming power of the Holy Spirit whereby He takes a man dead in his trespasses and sins and gives him spiritual life so that he can recognize the unsurpassing value of God’s offer of salvation. Then having been set free from the bondage of sin, that man willingly comes to Christ." So why did you start this thread, Eph4_32? You already take it as fact that God picks and chooses whom to save and whom to damn based on His unknowable decrees. You've already answered your title question and should be praising God that your unsaved family is deserving of His attention regardless of where the Holy Spirit takes them. Personally, this is the most fatalistic doctrine I've ever seen and I plan to pray God's prevenient grace over your loved ones every time He brings them to my mind!
So Ephesians, is it fair to say that you are already confident in the doctrine of which you adhere to and believe, and you really just wanted to debate those who oppose 5 Point Calvinism?
Not that there's anything wrong with wanting to debate whatsoever. I just thought at first that you were looking for answers and not sure of what you believed, and were searching.
How many times do I have to tell you that I want biblical answers? Convince me that God gives everyone equal opportunity to come to Him. Show me from scripture that God convicts each individual enough for that person to be converted. Just because I don't see it, does not mean I never will. I personally don't believe my mother has ever been convicted enough to believe that she needs a Savior. I can't see it.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
However, I think from your comments on this thread and elsewhere that you are very convinced in your beliefs which are very much aligned with 5 point Calvinism. With that said, I think you already have arrived at an understanding as to why your mother has not come to faith in Christ. According to 5 point Calvinism, all the answers to this question are already there.
1. Your mother is in a depraved, dead state in which she is separated from God. She cannot believe in Christ death on the cross for her sins because she has not one ounce of ability to do so.
2. Apparently thus far, it seems as though your mother has not been elected by God to be saved from before the foundations of the world. Unless per chance that God changes her heart before she dies and she is saved, thus proving that she is one of the elect.
3. Christ didn't die for your mother's sins because she was not chosen from the foundations of the world to be one of the elect. No matter what you say to her, how many Bible verses you quote, how compassionate you are toward her, none of that will matter if Christ did not die for her.
4. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ has had no effect on her heart nor will it ever have an effect on her heart because she is destined for wrath. Only if she is one of the elect will she be saved since God's grace is irresistible. But this grace will not even come near her if it is not God's will for her to be saved in the first place.
5. If she is actually an elect child of God, then she will bear the fruits of one who is regenerated and the quarantee is that she will continue in faith to the end, since salvation from its beginning to the end is only of God.
Having very seldom stepped inside a Calvinist church, their beliefs make sense to me. You can call me a Calvinist if you like. But I was hoping to see what others would tell me and perhaps convince me that Arminius had some insight that Calvin did not have. I do not attend a Calvinist church.
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/24/2008 10:25:38 PM
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Ephesians4_32
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How does an Arminian pray for the lost? Does it go something like tdd1975 suggested?
"God I am so thankful I am not like other men who think they have to depend on You for everything. I am so thankful I have freewill and the goodness within me to make the right decisions."
Do you ask God to supply certain individuals with more Prevenient Grace than John Doe down the street? Do you ask God to soften some hearts more than others? Would that be fair? I'm not debating. I'm asking for answers.
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/25/2008 1:29:20 AM
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atruefaith
Posts: 320
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quote:
And exactly how would such a prayer go? "Lord, I know that Christ did not die for all sinners, and I know that you do not really want all men to be saved. However, I am hoping that on the off chance that Jimmy and Nancy might be among the elect, I trust you will elect them, even though they are already predetermined to be elect. Thank you, Lord."
I wouldn't pray that prayer.
I'd rather pray:
Lord, you have put it on my heart to pray for Nancy and Jimmy and since I believe that all things are according to your purposes laid before the world's foundation and that you answer every prayer according to your will, reveal your election through Jimmy and Nancy as you bring them to repentance for the sake of glorious Name and for the Name of your Son under whose Name is the only name by which men may be saved. In Christ's Precious and Glorious Name I pray. Amen.
The prayers of a righteous man are powerful and effective indeed (James 5) and those prayers are stirred by desires of the Spirit of God himself, in order to reveal his will working through vessles of clay in order to glorify the Lord Jesus.
_____________________________
A series of short stories depicting the Christian faith....
www.atruefaith.com
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/25/2008 1:55:49 AM
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atruefaith
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quote:
So it's perfectly all right if you want to distort and ignore Scripture because, after all, we are all brothers and sisters here regardless of what we believe or why we believe it. So let's just have one big group hug and forget about the baby Believers that are reading these nasty posts. It's far more important that they see fellow Christians agreeing on any old doctrine. Who cares if doctrine is right or wrong, as long as it's not divisive.
Well, I think the point is that if you want to teach sound doctrine then that would include teaching all of it, including:
24And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth - 2 Timothy 2:24-25
15But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. - 1 Peter 3:15-16
_____________________________
A series of short stories depicting the Christian faith....
www.atruefaith.com
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/25/2008 2:00:00 AM
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atruefaith
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quote:
Yes, God created Hell. It is for Satan and his minions. It is for all those who have chosen independence from God. Hell is where those who choose independence from God get what they desire, eternal independence from God.
Too true. But the question is not the choice, but the capacity that was present when the choice was made. Thus:
And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. - 2 Corinthians 4:3-4
Unbelievers ultimately get what they desire because that is all they can desire.
_____________________________
A series of short stories depicting the Christian faith....
www.atruefaith.com
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/25/2008 2:48:50 AM
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atruefaith
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quote:
I am in no way trying to convince you this is true. You asked how it is that God can forgive a persons sins, and that person still end up in hell. The answer is still the same now as it was then, because getting our sins forgiven is not salvation, it is the "clearing of the deck", that makes it then possible to receive Christ's resurrected life. Salvation is receiving life, and that life is in Jesus Christ.
quote:
We are not saved by coming to Christ for what He did...we are saved by accepting Christ Himself...in Christ you HAVE forgiveness of sins and eternal life.
The old problems still remain with this view. Salvation does not originate with you. This salvation is by your choice, your coming, what you did that allows to participate in Christ's work. There is no verse in Scripture that says salvation originates from your choice.
The other issue here is that this argument is self-defeating. If all men have been forgiven their sins, then even their choice rooted in unbelief to reject God would be forgiven as well. If their is nothing to blame a sinner for because Christ died for the sins of all, then there are no sinners. If there are no sinners there is no need for wrath, a second death or hell.
Saying that the forgiveness of our sins "is not salvation" is a little ridiculous. I agree with you that salvation means that one receives eternal life in Jesus, but that is result of salvation. Salvation means to be protected from harm, deliverance from the power and penalty of sin. So what are we being saved from? Death and hell. What causes/brings death and hell? The wrath of God. What brings God's wrath. Sin. What do we then need to avoid the wrath of God, so that we can be saved from death and hell in order to have eternal life? Forgivness of sins.
You can't logically divorce Christ's forgiveness from salvation in the biblical sense because salvation hinges on the removal of sin.
_____________________________
A series of short stories depicting the Christian faith....
www.atruefaith.com
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/25/2008 8:45:25 AM
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Ephesians4_32
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Conquered
quote:
I am in no way trying to convince you this is true. You asked how it is that God can forgive a persons sins, and that person still end up in hell. The answer is still the same now as it was then, because getting our sins forgiven is not salvation, it is the "clearing of the deck", that makes it then possible to receive Christ's resurrected life. Salvation is receiving life, and that life is in Jesus Christ.
quote:
We are not saved by coming to Christ for what He did...we are saved by accepting Christ Himself...in Christ you HAVE forgiveness of sins and eternal life.
The old problems still remain with this view. Salvation does not originate with you. This salvation is by your choice, your coming, what you did that allows to participate in Christ's work. There is no verse in Scripture that says salvation originates from your choice.
The other issue here is that this argument is self-defeating. If all men have been forgiven their sins, then even their choice rooted in unbelief to reject God would be forgiven as well. If their is nothing to blame a sinner for because Christ died for the sins of all, then there are no sinners. If there are no sinners there is no need for wrath, a second death or hell.
Saying that the forgiveness of our sins "is not salvation" is a little ridiculous. I agree with you that salvation means that one receives eternal life in Jesus, but that is result of salvation. Salvation means to be protected from harm, deliverance from the power and penalty of sin. So what are we being saved from? Death and hell. What causes/brings death and hell? The wrath of God. What brings God's wrath. Sin. What do we then need to avoid the wrath of God, so that we can be saved from death and hell in order to have eternal life? Forgivness of sins.
You can't logically divorce Christ's forgiveness from salvation in the biblical sense because salvation hinges on the removal of sin.
I see what you are saying. Thank you for showing me this.
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/25/2008 9:04:09 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1212
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Conquered
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
I am in no way trying to convince you this is true. You asked how it is that God can forgive a persons sins, and that person still end up in hell. The answer is still the same now as it was then, because getting our sins forgiven is not salvation, it is the "clearing of the deck", that makes it then possible to receive Christ's resurrected life. Salvation is receiving life, and that life is in Jesus Christ.
We are not saved by coming to Christ for what He did...we are saved by accepting Christ Himself...in Christ you HAVE forgiveness of sins and eternal life.
quote:
The old problems still remain with this view. Salvation does not originate with you. This salvation is by your choice, your coming, what you did that allows to participate in Christ's work. There is no verse in Scripture that says salvation originates from your choice.
No one I have seen is saying that salvation originates with man. That is your own interpretation of what some are saying, based on your doctrinal belief. Salvation is a free gift of God. You have made the accepting of a gift into a work, which is to go beyond even the Pharisees
quote:
The other issue here is that this argument is self-defeating. If all men have been forgiven their sins, then even their choice rooted in unbelief to reject God would be forgiven as well. If their is nothing to blame a sinner for because Christ died for the sins of all, then there are no sinners. If there are no sinners there is no need for wrath, a second death or hell.
Except for one very important thing you have missed...that forgiveness is IN Christ. As is salvation. You have missed the person of Christ.
I see something else hidden in your response. The assumption that unbelief can be made into belief by being forgiven. It cannot. Unbelief does not need to be forgiven...it needs to be corrected.
The only solution to unbelief is belief.
quote:
Saying that the forgiveness of our sins "is not salvation" is a little ridiculous. I agree with you that salvation means that one receives eternal life in Jesus, but that is result of salvation. Salvation means to be protected from harm, deliverance from the power and penalty of sin. So what are we being saved from? Death and hell. What causes/brings death and hell? The wrath of God. What brings God's wrath. Sin. What do we then need to avoid the wrath of God, so that we can be saved from death and hell in order to have eternal life? Forgivness of sins.
This is circular reasoning again. Not recognizing that salvation is the receiving of life is what is ridiculous. You say yourself that what we are being saved from is death, is there any other solution to death than the receiving of life? Forgiveness of sins is what makes it possible to then receive life. That life is IN Christ. It is He we receive, not just some concept or doctrine.
The wrath of God is not what causes/brings death and hell. It is mans rebellion against God.
quote:
You can't logically divorce Christ's forgiveness from salvation in the biblical sense because salvation hinges on the removal of sin.
This post you are responding to was for another individual. That individual was and is under the impression that getting your sins forgiven is salvation. They have divorced eternal life from forgiveness, missing salvation entirely. That is what is illogical.
When you are canning tomatoes, do you sterilize the jars just to have really, really clean jars? Or do you sterilize the jars because you want to put something into them that is precious to you, and that you do not want to spoil?
Peace
< Message edited by URForgiven -- 5/25/2008 9:10:37 AM >
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/25/2008 1:56:39 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 1617
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From: The Crossroads of America
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
This post you are responding to was for another individual.
Am I that individual?
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
That individual was and is under the impression that getting your sins forgiven is salvation.
Our sins separate us from God. Those who have been, are being, and will be saved are no longer separated from God. We have been reconciled to Him in that our sins have been forgiven and God does not impute sin to us. We also have Christ dwelling in our hearts by faith. We are also regenerated by the Holy Spirit.
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
They have divorced eternal life from forgiveness, missing salvation entirely. That is what is illogical.
Again, if you are referring to me, I haven't divorced eternal life from forgiveness, missing salvation entirely.
1 John 5
11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Romans 5
10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
I wanted to know if certain members believe that all are forgiven but only some saved.
The saved are the individuals whose sins are forgiven. The unsaved are still under the power of Satan. Capice?
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/25/2008 5:14:12 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
Unlike God we don't know who He picked, so we pray... 
And exactly how would such a prayer go? "Lord, I know that Christ did not die for all sinners, and I know that you do not really want all men to be saved. However, I am hoping that on the off chance that Jimmy and Nancy might be among the elect, I trust you will elect them, even though they are already predetermined to be elect. Thank you, Lord."
That sounds better than the following... I saved myself, not need to pray for anything... God doesn't really do anything but leave a standing offer on the table and the onus is man to make the right choice... Payer will not change the standing offer or move anyone closer to taking it... Everyone must make a choice... Of course most make exception for babies and infants but we don't talk about that because it ends up being nothing short of predestination.
By my choice and I am what I am, and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain because I laboured more abundantly than they all and it was I, not the grace of God, since everyone is given the grace of God, so it must be I... Amen...
John
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/25/2008 5:17:33 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Heh... Whenever I see the doctrine of prevenient grace I picture poor Mr. Wesley trying to balance the doctrines of original sin,salvation by grace, God's sovereignty and holy character with <cough> man's freedom... Of course man isn't free, but that's why it never does balance...
Sovereign,
Poor Mr. Wesley? Not at all. You are aware of how highly George Whitefield thought of him even though he disagreed with some of his beliefs? He considered John Wesley to be a very committed Christian and had great love and respect for him.
Heavendweller
I really don't care what George Whitefield thought, Mr Wesley was wrong...
John
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/25/2008 5:21:54 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
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From: Northern Califonria
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
Philippians 4
6Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
1 John 5
14And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
God may hear your prayers for your loved ones or others to be saved. But, He will not answer your prayers for them to be saved nor will He heed your prayers for them to repent, no matter how much you plead on their behalf, if He has already chosen them to be damned before the foundation of the world. So whether you pray for their salvation, or never pray for their salvation, it matters not one way or the other since God will do what He intends to do irregardless of your prayers.
This is Calvinist doctrine.
Heavendweller
God knew who would be saved and who wouldn't prior to creation... Any doctrine that believes in hell can't escape that whomever is going to hell prayer isn't going to change that...
John
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/25/2008 5:34:31 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
DrMark has already said that God has chosen to limit Himself. I often pray that God would soften the hearts of these undeserving sinners which could be interpreted as asking God to change his mind. Seems to me Abraham did a similar thing in Genesis 18:22-33 when he pleaded for the lives of the condemned. I'm in good company, doncha think!
I think you need to read it again... Abraham was concerned for the righteous among the wicked not those condemned.
Genesis 18:23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
Genesis 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
There isn't a verse that speaks of pleading for the wicked and the we know that God destroyed them...
Btw... Why are you praying for? God has already done what needs to be done regarding salvation... What makes you think another man needs God to softed up his heart any more than He has already done for those who have saved themselves? That would seem to an assualt on man's free will...
John
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/25/2008 8:07:31 PM
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Sammy_S
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From: Brampton,Ontario
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UrForgiven
quote:
The wrath of God is not what causes/brings death and hell. It is mans rebellion against God
That makes me sick,your theology seriously disturbs me.
Read Psalms 7:11-13...
God was pleased to crush Christ when he became sin,He will be very pleased in crushing all sinners who do not repent.
_____________________________
Christ saved you from the wrath of an almighty God. Hell is just a revelation of that. I always tell people this. God saved you from Himself, God saved you for Himself and God saved you by Himself."
Paul Washer
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/25/2008 11:13:16 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
Convince me that God gives everyone equal opportunity to come to Him.
"And He said unto them, Go ye into ALL THE WORLD, and preach the Gospel TO EVERY CREATURE. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" (Mk. 16:15,16). Do you believe this?
quote:
Show me from scripture that God convicts each individual enough for that person to be converted.
"But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: and thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so, falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth" (1 Cor. 14:24,25). Do you believe this?
quote:
How does an Arminian pray for the lost?
"I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, that I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, for my kinsmen after the flesh" (Rom. 9:1-3). Do you believe this?
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/25/2008 11:23:08 PM
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Odeliya
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quote:
And here I thought you were one of the brightest lightbulbs on this forum. Now you tell me that's not the case.
Appreciate your sisterly kindness and compliment , but well… if I had your determination and depth and was as systematic in theological studies I could qualify as a bulb, but not yet..Like all modern chirstianity I am wide but shallow. ( by my standards and in comparison to you)
I agree with your assessment of the thread points 
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/26/2008 9:38:51 AM
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drmark
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quote:
I think you need to read it again... Abraham was concerned for the righteous among the wicked not those condemned. Well I think you misread, John, God had already told Abraham that He would go down and check it out (so much for predestination of particular individuals). Then God changed His mind five times at Abraham's persistent intervention. Oh, I forget, you will simply claim that God already knew He would change His mind five times and then save Lot's family when they hesitated. Do you actually expect me to believe these illogical arguments of yours?
quote:
quote:
The wrath of God is not what causes/brings death and hell. It is mans rebellion against God God was pleased to crush Christ when he became sin,He will be very pleased in crushing all sinners who do not repent. Sammy, is not "all sinners who do not repent" the same as "man's rebellion against God"?
BTW, I do not believe God is "very pleased in crushing" any human being made in His Image! Personally, your theology seriously disturbs me!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/26/2008 1:58:38 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Well I think you misread, John, God had already told Abraham that He would go down and check it out (so much for predestination of particular individuals). Then God changed His mind five times at Abraham's persistent intervention. Oh, I forget, you will simply claim that God already knew He would change His mind five times and then save Lot's family when they hesitated. Do you actually expect me to believe these illogical arguments of yours?
Again...
You said: Seems to me Abraham did a similar thing in Genesis 18:22-33 when he pleaded for the lives of the condemned. I'm in good company, doncha think!
Where is he pleading for the condemned? It's not to be found in the verses you spoke of, yet we can see Abraham speaking of God not destroying the righteous with the wicked.
Genesis 18:23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
Genesis 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
You really think God was being moved by Abraham's persistent? Too funny...lol
Isaiah 65:24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
John
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/26/2008 2:16:24 PM
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Jim731
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After reading all these comments by "Christians" I now understand Mahatma Gandhi when he said, "I would have been a Christian, except for the Christians."
1John 4:8 Whoever is not loving does not know God, because God is love.
And I leave you with a corollary to that scriptural truth, though few of you see it: If you believe that someone could know God and reject Him, then YOU do not know God - yet. But He has promised that you will - ALL of you.
Peace to you. Jim
< Message edited by Jim731 -- 5/26/2008 2:28:34 PM >
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/26/2008 2:47:52 PM
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drmark
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quote:
But He has promised that you will - ALL of you. Will all of us be saved, Jim731? Or will some merely "know God" from their abode in hell?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/26/2008 4:51:17 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jim731
After reading all these comments by "Christians" I now understand Mahatma Gandhi when he said, "I would have been a Christian, except for the Christians."
1John 4:8 Whoever is not loving does not know God, because God is love.
And I leave you with a corollary to that scriptural truth, though few of you see it: If you believe that someone could know God and reject Him, then YOU do not know God - yet. But He has promised that you will - ALL of you.
Peace to you. Jim
Gandhi by his own profession didn't know God so it would following he was not loving...
John
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/26/2008 11:30:30 PM
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atruefaith
Posts: 320
Joined: 6/18/2005
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No one I have seen is saying that salvation originates with man. That is your own interpretation of what some are saying, based on your doctrinal belief. Salvation is a free gift of God. You have made the accepting of a gift into a work, which is to go beyond even the Pharisees
You have nowhere to go but a by-works salvation if you assert free will and the necessity of an individual, independent choice in order to grasp salvation. How can you say that your choice means that salvation originates from God when you claim to have the power to preside over the fate of your own soul? Salvation is a free gift (Eph 2:4-8) no question, but the recepit of the free gift from God is the implantation of the Spirit of Christ into the heart of those whom God has chosen, not on account of any choice you made.
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Except for one very important thing you have missed...that forgiveness is IN Christ. As is salvation. You have missed the person of Christ.
You can't unring the bell once you make the claim that the sins of everyone is forgiven and then say that it's all about forgiveness that is "IN Chirst" (as if that is some sort of distinction from being forgiven for everything). If I am forgiven by God for every sin, then there is nothing that I can be charged with, even unbelief. Your logic is flawed and contradictory.
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I see something else hidden in your response. The assumption that unbelief can be made into belief by being forgiven. It cannot. Unbelief does not need to be forgiven...it needs to be corrected.
I never said this, UR. I said that you can't say that all sins are forgiven of everyone and then say that unbelief is not also forgiven because it to is a sin. That's a contradiction I was pointing out regarding your view., not mine
UR, why do you blame others for the logical fallacies that are inherent in YOUR view. You could at least extend the courtesy of explaining your accusations rather than just carelessly tossing them about hoping that some will stick.
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This is circular reasoning again. Not recognizing that salvation is the receiving of life is what is ridiculous. You say yourself that what we are being saved from is death, is there any other solution to death than the receiving of life? Forgiveness of sins is what makes it possible to then receive life. That life is IN Christ. It is He we receive, not just some concept or doctrine.
There was nothing circular in my reasoning and your making unsubstantiated charges again. The Scriptures says that anyone who is forgiven of all their sins receives eternal life and is in Christ just as Christ is in them. Again, you can't remove the forgiveness of all sins from the gift of eternal life or being in Christ. The Scriptures say that if I am forgiven of all past, present, and future sins then Christ is in me, I am in Christ, I am of the elect and will enjoy eternal life with the Lord Jesus Christ forever.
Again, asserting a salvation by choice while degrading what Christ did on the cross only asserts a salvation by works and encourages pride, not humility.
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The wrath of God is not what causes/brings death and hell. It is mans rebellion against God.
So you just ignore all the passages about the wrath of God and judgment? What do you think God's wrath ultimately brings to the unrepentant?
< Message edited by Conquered -- 5/26/2008 11:44:23 PM >
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A series of short stories depicting the Christian faith....
www.atruefaith.com
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/26/2008 11:51:50 PM
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atruefaith
Posts: 320
Joined: 6/18/2005
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Hmm, while I believe the truth in all Scripture, including those you've quoted.....
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Convince me that God gives everyone equal opportunity to come to Him.
"And He said unto them, Go ye into ALL THE WORLD, and preach the Gospel TO EVERY CREATURE. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" (Mk. 16:15,16). Do you believe this?
So when exactly was Paul's missionary journey to the Inca in Middle America? I think that was the point that was trying to be made here.
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Show me from scripture that God convicts each individual enough for that person to be converted.
"But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: and thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so, falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth" (1 Cor. 14:24,25). Do you believe this?
This verse doesn't apply to the question as the context of "all" is the Corinthian church, not all persons without exception.
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How does an Arminian pray for the lost?
"I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, that I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, for my kinsmen after the flesh" (Rom. 9:1-3). Do you believe this?
Good answer.
< Message edited by Conquered -- 5/26/2008 11:58:19 PM >
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A series of short stories depicting the Christian faith....
www.atruefaith.com
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/27/2008 12:05:44 AM
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atruefaith
Posts: 320
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline
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God had already told Abraham that He would go down and check it out (so much for predestination of particular individuals). Then God changed His mind five times at Abraham's persistent intervention. Oh, I forget, you will simply claim that God already knew He would change His mind five times and then save Lot's family when they hesitated. Do you actually expect me to believe these illogical arguments of yours?
Actually, so much for perfect foreknowledge which is what I thought Arminians still held to, Arminus at least held to it. Open Theism anyone?
But your arguments would be perfectly rational if we were merely talking about human experience and capabilities, but you make a category mistake when you equate humans with God.
_____________________________
A series of short stories depicting the Christian faith....
www.atruefaith.com
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/27/2008 8:02:32 AM
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