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Ezra -> RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? (5/19/2008 1:33:47 PM)
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ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
Not only are many of your posts rude, but now you pretend to know my mind. You accuse me of being indoctrinated with certain beliefs.
Eph 4_32:
You can rest assured that my posts are not intended to be "rude" but they are intended to be blunt. I don't "pretend" to know your mind, since your doctrinal position is already evident in your posts, and all who read them will perceive what you believe (as is true for myself and everyone else). We all present our doctrinal positions in what we post. And I do believe that "indoctrination" is accurate when people fail to take Scripture for what it says, comparing Scripture with Scripture, and prefer to lean on some man-made theology.
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I believe SovereignIsHe was saying that in order for a person to become a believer, he needs to be regenerated by the Holy Spirit. So if all all believers have been regenerated, why would they need it again?
Well, Scripture does not support this at all. Regeneration is a result of faith and repentance, not the cause, and I have provided you with Scriptural evidence. Unless you can prove from Scripture that the opposite is the case, you should simply accept what the Bible says.
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ORIGINAL: Ezra
The order in Scripture is
faith---->repentance----> regeneration, NOT
regeneration----> faith----> repentance,
as you wrongly believe.
You ought to have left out the phrase "as you wrongly believe." That is a rude way to approach a sister in Christ. Instead of snide remarks, show me the truth from the Bible and then leave it at that. Let the Holy Spirit do His work.
This was not a "snide" remark but a factual observation. False teaching is "wrong belief" and when you have addressed Mormons, for example, you have not hesitated to call their teaching false.
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ORIGINAL: Ezra
How do we know? I already presented John 1:12, 13,
John 1
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
I see nothing Arminian about those verses. Calvinists agree that that Christians receive Christ and believe on His name.
Let's take these verses as an example. John, wiriting by Divine inspiration, chose every word with great care and precision, so that we would know the truth. Now notice the order of events. The ones who receive Christ and believe on His name are the ones who subsequently and consequently receive the New Birth (thus receiving the authority to be sons of God), which is supernatural, and which we know is a work of the Holy Spirit.
These verses do not say "As many as were born of God received Christ and believed on His name", which would correspond to the false notion that regeneration precedes believing and receiving Christ, and that the gift of the Holy Spirit is given even before sinners believe and repent.
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ORIGINAL: Ezra
Titus 3:4-7
4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Again, I see nothing Arminian in those verses.
These verses make it clear that the Holy Spirit is given to those justified by God's grace, and it is the Holy Spirit who then regenerates. We do not put the cart before the horse. Without the indwelling Holy Spirit there can be no regeneration, and without faith and repentance there can be no gift of the Holy Spirit. That is what Scripture reveals.
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ORIGINAL: Ezra
& Acts 2:38, and had you taken the time to carefully see what is stated, you would have discovered that the first requirement is faith, then repentance, then the gift of the Holy Spirit, then the washing of regeneration and the renewal of the Holy Ghost.
So any person who doesn't interpret that your way, has not taken the time to carefully see what is stated?
This is not a matter of "mine" vs "yours". If you want to know the truth, then shed your preconceptions, and take Scripture for what it says, not what some theologian might have postulated. So unless you can prove from Scripture that regeneration precedes faith, you should believe what I have pointed out.
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ORIGINAL: Ezra
As to 1 Corinthians 2:14, that is a misapplication of Scripture to the matter of response to the Gospel by sinners. The context (vv. 1-16) is "the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom" (v. 7) and what "eye hath not seen, nor ear hear, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things whihc God has prepared for them that love him" (v.9).
I disagree with you that I misapplied scripture.
Your disagreement does not change the fact that you have been misapplying this Scripture. Show us from Scripture that before sinners are saved, they have already received the Holy Spirit. If you cannot do that, then you have indeed misapplied Scripture.
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You may sound very dogmatic in your posts, but I don't sense the love of Christ and the meek instruction that should be there. I don't like it when people who are supposed to be siblings in Christ become haughty towards one another. Is the purpose of these discussions to see how rude we can be?
I'm sorry you feel this way, but you have been shown numerous Scriptures in answer to your questions, but you have not acknowledged the truth presented. Rudeness is in the eye of the beholder.
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God has to open our ears and eyes to truth. Some people are presented the Gospel, but they never really hear it. They can't acknowledge the truth.
It is not that people can't acknowledge the truth. People won't acknowledge the truth, even after Christ Himself presents it. Study the Gospels and note how Christ presented the truth, yet those who rejected Him refused to acknowledge the truth.
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God must give us repentance to the acknowledging of the truth.
God gives repentance to those are are willing to repent. Those who resist the truth and the Holy Spirit are not given repentance. They receive retribution. Once again, Scripture will bear this out.
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