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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/19/2008 12:48:00 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3265
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
Your post makes no sense to me. "God cannot make anyone believe in Him, but He sure can soften their heart, lead them to knowledge, and help them come to their senses," in particular, makes no sense. God can make people believe. My Bible says that He does. But your Bible does not say that God believes for us! God does not make people believe in Him for salvation. Are you suggesting that Simon Peter was saved by his intellectual assent to the Messiahship of Jesus? Why did he then deny Him three times?
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What reason do you Arminians give that all my siblings and my parents had equal opportunity to believe as I did? Are you questioning the universality of God's grace, Eph4_32? Grace is always "equal opportunity", but what one does with that grace is uniquely individual.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/19/2008 1:33:47 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1784
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
Not only are many of your posts rude, but now you pretend to know my mind. You accuse me of being indoctrinated with certain beliefs.
Eph 4_32:
You can rest assured that my posts are not intended to be "rude" but they are intended to be blunt. I don't "pretend" to know your mind, since your doctrinal position is already evident in your posts, and all who read them will perceive what you believe (as is true for myself and everyone else). We all present our doctrinal positions in what we post. And I do believe that "indoctrination" is accurate when people fail to take Scripture for what it says, comparing Scripture with Scripture, and prefer to lean on some man-made theology.
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I believe SovereignIsHe was saying that in order for a person to become a believer, he needs to be regenerated by the Holy Spirit. So if all all believers have been regenerated, why would they need it again?
Well, Scripture does not support this at all. Regeneration is a result of faith and repentance, not the cause, and I have provided you with Scriptural evidence. Unless you can prove from Scripture that the opposite is the case, you should simply accept what the Bible says.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
The order in Scripture is
faith---->repentance----> regeneration, NOT
regeneration----> faith----> repentance,
as you wrongly believe.
You ought to have left out the phrase "as you wrongly believe." That is a rude way to approach a sister in Christ. Instead of snide remarks, show me the truth from the Bible and then leave it at that. Let the Holy Spirit do His work.
This was not a "snide" remark but a factual observation. False teaching is "wrong belief" and when you have addressed Mormons, for example, you have not hesitated to call their teaching false.
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ORIGINAL: Ezra
How do we know? I already presented John 1:12, 13,
John 1
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
I see nothing Arminian about those verses. Calvinists agree that that Christians receive Christ and believe on His name.
Let's take these verses as an example. John, wiriting by Divine inspiration, chose every word with great care and precision, so that we would know the truth. Now notice the order of events. The ones who receive Christ and believe on His name are the ones who subsequently and consequently receive the New Birth (thus receiving the authority to be sons of God), which is supernatural, and which we know is a work of the Holy Spirit.
These verses do not say "As many as were born of God received Christ and believed on His name", which would correspond to the false notion that regeneration precedes believing and receiving Christ, and that the gift of the Holy Spirit is given even before sinners believe and repent.
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ORIGINAL: Ezra
Titus 3:4-7
4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Again, I see nothing Arminian in those verses.
These verses make it clear that the Holy Spirit is given to those justified by God's grace, and it is the Holy Spirit who then regenerates. We do not put the cart before the horse. Without the indwelling Holy Spirit there can be no regeneration, and without faith and repentance there can be no gift of the Holy Spirit. That is what Scripture reveals.
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ORIGINAL: Ezra
& Acts 2:38, and had you taken the time to carefully see what is stated, you would have discovered that the first requirement is faith, then repentance, then the gift of the Holy Spirit, then the washing of regeneration and the renewal of the Holy Ghost.
So any person who doesn't interpret that your way, has not taken the time to carefully see what is stated?
This is not a matter of "mine" vs "yours". If you want to know the truth, then shed your preconceptions, and take Scripture for what it says, not what some theologian might have postulated. So unless you can prove from Scripture that regeneration precedes faith, you should believe what I have pointed out.
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ORIGINAL: Ezra
As to 1 Corinthians 2:14, that is a misapplication of Scripture to the matter of response to the Gospel by sinners. The context (vv. 1-16) is "the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom" (v. 7) and what "eye hath not seen, nor ear hear, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things whihc God has prepared for them that love him" (v.9).
I disagree with you that I misapplied scripture.
Your disagreement does not change the fact that you have been misapplying this Scripture. Show us from Scripture that before sinners are saved, they have already received the Holy Spirit. If you cannot do that, then you have indeed misapplied Scripture.
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You may sound very dogmatic in your posts, but I don't sense the love of Christ and the meek instruction that should be there. I don't like it when people who are supposed to be siblings in Christ become haughty towards one another. Is the purpose of these discussions to see how rude we can be?
I'm sorry you feel this way, but you have been shown numerous Scriptures in answer to your questions, but you have not acknowledged the truth presented. Rudeness is in the eye of the beholder.
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God has to open our ears and eyes to truth. Some people are presented the Gospel, but they never really hear it. They can't acknowledge the truth.
It is not that people can't acknowledge the truth. People won't acknowledge the truth, even after Christ Himself presents it. Study the Gospels and note how Christ presented the truth, yet those who rejected Him refused to acknowledge the truth.
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God must give us repentance to the acknowledging of the truth.
God gives repentance to those are are willing to repent. Those who resist the truth and the Holy Spirit are not given repentance. They receive retribution. Once again, Scripture will bear this out.
< Message edited by Ezra -- 5/19/2008 4:17:17 PM >
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/20/2008 10:11:11 AM
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Sammy_S
Posts: 512
Joined: 10/6/2007
From: Brampton,Ontario
Status: offline
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If God was trying to save all then all would be saved.Unless God is limited...
_____________________________
Christ saved you from the wrath of an almighty God. Hell is just a revelation of that. I always tell people this. God saved you from Himself, God saved you for Himself and God saved you by Himself."
Paul Washer
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/20/2008 10:20:39 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6501
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
2 Corinthians 5:15 has nothing to do with your assertion. You said He chooses all, scripture says differently. I side with scripture.
I do not wish to argue with you Jimbo, but it is with Scripture that you disagree. ..
Sorry, I showed you scripture, yet you stick with your opinion. So be it.
If you wish to change your point, do so and admit your slip: You said He chooses all, but Jesus says few are chosen.
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/20/2008 11:08:12 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 929
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
2 Corinthians 5:15 has nothing to do with your assertion. You said He chooses all, scripture says differently. I side with scripture.
I do not wish to argue with you Jimbo, but it is with Scripture that you disagree. ..
Sorry, I showed you scripture, yet you stick with your opinion. So be it.
If you wish to change your point, do so and admit your slip: You said He chooses all, but Jesus says few are chosen.
Jimbo, please tell me you were not trying to deceive others by only quoting half of what I wrote in response to you.
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
2 Corinthians 5:15 has nothing to do with your assertion. You said He chooses all, scripture says differently. I side with scripture.
I do not wish to argue with you Jimbo, but it is with Scripture that you disagree. Christ died for all and He died "once and for all". If He died for all, then obviously all have the opportunity to accept His death, burial, and resurrection.
"This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.." 1 Timothy 2:3-5
Peace
It would appear I was not, in fact, expressing an opinion, but was basing my response on the clear and revealed truth of God, evidenced by the Scripture quoted that disagrees with you.
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/20/2008 11:20:51 AM
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drmark
Posts: 3265
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
If God was trying to save all then all would be saved.Unless God is limited... You got it, Sammy_S! God chose to limit Himself in His creation of human will. Truly amazing, isn't it? But truly understandable if He wants real love from His children, not merely to show off predestined decrees which control the elect few!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/20/2008 12:41:09 PM
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Sammy_S
Posts: 512
Joined: 10/6/2007
From: Brampton,Ontario
Status: offline
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drmark
quote:
You got it, Sammy_S! God chose to limit Himself in His creation of human will. Truly amazing, isn't it? But truly understandable if He wants real love from His children, not merely to show off predestined decrees which control the elect few!
Oh really.God chose to limit himself huh?Where is that in the bible?
Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.
Do you know wha that verse is saying?If God desired that every single person be saved then he would so so.He does whatever his soul desires.That is what the bible says.
Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps
Proverbs 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.
Proverbs 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?
Proverbs 19:21 There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand
Jeremiah 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.
Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
Psalms 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
Do you still believe the Heresy/unbiblical teachingthat God has chosen to limit himself?God is King and he shares his Glory and throne with NO ONE
Psalms 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
_____________________________
Christ saved you from the wrath of an almighty God. Hell is just a revelation of that. I always tell people this. God saved you from Himself, God saved you for Himself and God saved you by Himself."
Paul Washer
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/20/2008 12:49:56 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6501
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
Jimbo, please tell me you were not trying to deceive others by only quoting half of what I wrote in response to you.
Amazing... I addressed a very specific comment you made with scripture that precisely invalidated your comment and now I'm trying to deceive others. To what purpose? I don't have a cult following and I haven't promoted any group of folks, only quoted Jesus. But I'm trying to mislead others... Amazing.
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/20/2008 12:51:28 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6501
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
It would appear I was not, in fact, expressing an opinion, but was basing my response on the clear and revealed truth of God, evidenced by the Scripture quoted that disagrees with you.
Again, not so.
Refusal to admit you are imperfect only makes you look worse than doing so.
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/20/2008 12:53:44 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3265
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
Do you still believe the Heresy/unbiblical teachingthat God has chosen to limit himself?God is King and he shares his Glory and throne with NO ONE For every verse you have, Sammy_S, I have one to support freedom of human choice. So it always comes back to our basic doctrinal system of understanding God's Word. Tell me, Sammy_S, why do you bother to post anything on these theology forums since we are all predestined to Heaven or Hell at God's unfathomable whim without the slightest input of our own. Your discussion is totally irrelevant to His predetermined Sovereignty, isn't it? Why do you waste your time here? Aren't you interfering with God's Glory?
< Message edited by drmark -- 5/20/2008 1:00:50 PM >
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/20/2008 1:25:15 PM
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justajerk
Posts: 123
Joined: 4/30/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Do you still believe the Heresy/unbiblical teachingthat God has chosen to limit himself?God is King and he shares his Glory and throne with NO ONE For every verse you have, Sammy_S, I have one to support freedom of human choice. So it always comes back to our basic doctrinal system of understanding God's Word. Tell me, Sammy_S, why do you bother to post anything on these theology forums since we are all predestined to Heaven or Hell at God's unfathomable whim without the slightest input of our own. Your discussion is totally irrelevant to His predetermined Sovereignty, isn't it? Why do you waste your time here? Aren't you interfering with God's Glory?
Looks like Sammy's scriptures have struck a nerve with you in that you would lash out so forcefully.
There are no contradictions in scripture so your statement that there are just as many that back up your view is: 1) Correct = we have no confidence in the Bible. 2) Incorrect = We need to search and find the correct interpretation that brings out the correct relationship between these seemingly contradictory scriptures.
< Message edited by justajerk -- 5/20/2008 1:35:43 PM >
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/20/2008 1:36:10 PM
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Sammy_S
Posts: 512
Joined: 10/6/2007
From: Brampton,Ontario
Status: offline
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drmark
quote:
For every verse you have, Sammy_S, I have one to support freedom of human choice. So it always comes back to our basic doctrinal system of understanding God's Word.
Great Job avoiding the obvious truth I posted..and as for these passages that support human choice care to post them?And unlike you I will actually respond to your points..
quote:
Tell me, Sammy_S, why do you bother to post anything on these theology forums since we are all predestined to Heaven or Hell at God's unfathomable whim without the slightest input of our own.
Why?I like to talk about Christ and things of him.I like to learn as much as I can to to grow more in love with him.I don't know who the Elect are and who is not and that is not my job,my job is to present myslf as a oly sacrifice in all things for his glory.I wouldnt say that men are predestined to Hell but that they are left to there.
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Your discussion is totally irrelevant to His predetermined Sovereignty, isn't it? Why do you waste your time here? Aren't you interfering with God's Glory?
You really hate the idea that you are not in control of your soul are'nt you?I do not intefere with God's Glory)not that its even possible) when I speak of him.I talkabout him and preach about him to as many as I can because God has chosen to save man through the teaching of what he has done.It is great to know that,my preaching does not save anyone,if that were so I would send all to hell with my teaching since i am still so far away from understanding God and his gospel but thank God it's all about him.
_____________________________
Christ saved you from the wrath of an almighty God. Hell is just a revelation of that. I always tell people this. God saved you from Himself, God saved you for Himself and God saved you by Himself."
Paul Washer
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/20/2008 1:37:04 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 929
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
It would appear I was not, in fact, expressing an opinion, but was basing my response on the clear and revealed truth of God, evidenced by the Scripture quoted that disagrees with you.
Again, not so.
Refusal to admit you are imperfect only makes you look worse than doing so.
I will be the first to admit I am imperfect, but what does that have to do with you only quoting half of my post, and then responding to that half as if the other half did not exist?
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/20/2008 2:23:32 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3265
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
Looks like Sammy's scriptures have struck a nerve with you in that you would lash out so forcefully. No, they're not Sammy's scriptures - they're God's Word. Yes, I do have strong feelings about false doctrine resulting from misunderstanding Truth. If you perceive that as "struck a nerve" and "lash out so forcefully", that is your free will to decide! God foreknows the intent of my heart but He does not predetermine it.
quote:
and as for these passages that support human choice care to post them? Sammy, I counted six alone on the very first page of this thread! I don't "care to post them" - I care that you read them with proper hermeneutical exegesis. Until you do, no Scripture will impact your human-derived belief system.
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I wouldnt say that men are predestined to Hell but that they are left to there. You may not be willing to say this publicly, but it is the only logical conclusion if particular men are predestined to Heaven.
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You really hate the idea that you are not in control of your soul are'nt you? Actually, what I really hate is for people that do not know me from Adam's housecat to think they can read my mind!
I praise the Lord that His grace is in control of my soul. I'm also humbled that He allows me have a say in my eternal destiny. This actually leads to a sense of privelege and responsibility in living my life daily for Christ's sake. I cannot understand how a theology of predeterminism will lead to anything but apathy and fatalism. My relationship with God is partnership, not puppetry!
quote:
but thank God it's all about him. Indeed Sammy, thank God it's all about His Love for us!!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/20/2008 2:42:06 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4478
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Are you suggesting that Simon Peter was saved by his intellectual assent to the Messiahship of Jesus?
That is exactly what you and others here claim... If man believes and repents prior to being changed by God the only thing man has prior to salvation is his “intellectual reasoning”
quote:
Are you questioning the universality of God's grace, Eph4_32? Grace is always "equal opportunity",
Really...
Do you believe babies/infants are automatically saved? What about people who do not have the mental ability to reason? They are all saved as well?
quote:
but what one does with that grace is uniquely individual.
Are you suggesting that anyone is saved by his intellectual assent to the Messiahship of Jesus?
John
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/20/2008 2:52:09 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4478
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
You can rest assured that my posts are not intended to be "rude" but they are intended to be blunt. I don't "pretend" to know your mind, since your doctrinal position is already evident in your posts, and all who read them will perceive what you believe (as is true for myself and everyone else). We all present our doctrinal positions in what we post. And I do believe that "indoctrination" is accurate when people fail to take Scripture for what it says, comparing Scripture with Scripture, and prefer to lean on some man-made theology.
So the only difference is that you have judged your take on Scripture to be the correct one... Which proves nothing...
quote:
Well, Scripture does not support this at all. Regeneration is a result of faith and repentance, not the cause, and I have provided you with Scriptural evidence. Unless you can prove from Scripture that the opposite is the case, you should simply accept what the Bible says.
Ok... Romans 8... The flesh cannot please God... Man prior to salvation is in the flesh... Since man is either in the flesh or in the Spirit... There is no other state man exists in but those two...
quote:
This is not a matter of "mine" vs "yours". If you want to know the truth, then shed your preconceptions, and take Scripture for what it says, not what some theologian might have postulated. So unless you can prove from Scripture that regeneration precedes faith, you should believe what I have pointed out.
Discount the theologian, but not you... And are you saying that you have no preconceptions?
quote:
Your disagreement does not change the fact that you have been misapplying this Scripture. Show us from Scripture that before sinners are saved, they have already received the Holy Spirit. If you cannot do that, then you have indeed misapplied Scripture.
Simple.... The flesh cannot please God... That leaves only the Spirit...
quote:
God gives repentance to those are are willing to repent. Those who resist the truth and the Holy Spirit are not given repentance. They receive retribution. Once again, Scripture will bear this out.
Those who are dead in sin cannot repent... The concept of repenting is a thing of the Spirit, and to repent would be to call out to God, which as well takes the Holy Spirit...
John
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/20/2008 2:58:19 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4478
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
If God was trying to save all then all would be saved.Unless God is limited... You got it, Sammy_S! God chose to limit Himself in His creation of human will. Truly amazing, isn't it? But truly understandable if He wants real love from His children, not merely to show off predestined decrees which control the elect few!
The only love His children have for Him is the love that stems from the new heart and Spirit that is placed into man by God... As for showing off, God does it all the time... He placed an evil ruler into power to show off, chose the younger over the elder child to "show off" and shows off His incredible mercy daily by lifting filthy sinners from the pit and giving them eternal life in spite of themselves...
Mercy is unmerited favor, not a Scooby Snack for the self made righteous.
We do because He's in us, not beause we desired to please Him from our dead in sin state that He raised us from and made alive in Him, for Him and His glory...
John
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/20/2008 3:01:01 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4478
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sammy_S
drmark
quote:
You got it, Sammy_S! God chose to limit Himself in His creation of human will. Truly amazing, isn't it? But truly understandable if He wants real love from His children, not merely to show off predestined decrees which control the elect few!
Oh really.God chose to limit himself huh?Where is that in the bible?
Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.
Do you know wha that verse is saying?If God desired that every single person be saved then he would so so.He does whatever his soul desires.That is what the bible says.
Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps
Proverbs 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.
Proverbs 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?
Proverbs 19:21 There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand
Jeremiah 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.
Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
Psalms 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
Do you still believe the Heresy/unbiblical teachingthat God has chosen to limit himself?God is King and he shares his Glory and throne with NO ONE
Psalms 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
Wonderful verses, Sammy... All glory to God...
John
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/20/2008 3:05:55 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4478
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Do you still believe the Heresy/unbiblical teachingthat God has chosen to limit himself?God is King and he shares his Glory and throne with NO ONE For every verse you have, Sammy_S, I have one to support freedom of human choice.
The "freedom of human choice" Sounds more like the US Constitution...
Man prior to salvation... Free to do what? Other than sin... Can He believe? Nope... Christ said, You cannot believe beause you are not a sheep... Hence one must be a sheep to believe...
quote:
So it always comes back to our basic doctrinal system of understanding God's Word. Tell me, Sammy_S, why do you bother to post anything on these theology forums since we are all predestined to Heaven or Hell at God's unfathomable whim without the slightest input of our own. Your discussion is totally irrelevant to His predetermined Sovereignty, isn't it? Why do you waste your time here? Aren't you interfering with God's Glory?
Simple... God uses His word to draw out His people... As Paul said... The word of God is foolishness and stumbling block to some, BUT to those CALLED the power and wisdom of God...
John
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/20/2008 3:06:33 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6501
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: URForgiven
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ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
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It would appear I was not, in fact, expressing an opinion, but was basing my response on the clear and revealed truth of God, evidenced by the Scripture quoted that disagrees with you.
Again, not so.
Refusal to admit you are imperfect only makes you look worse than doing so.
I will be the first to admit I am imperfect, but what does that have to do with you only quoting half of my post, and then responding to that half as if the other half did not exist?
One thing at a time. When I ran into that contradiction to Jesus' own statement, I found no point in going further. And your extreme hesitation in admiting that mistake makes me wary of any further discussion.
IOW, If I were to notice that the tires were missing and my car was sitting on blocks, I wouldn't be spending time making sure the radio was still set to my favorite station. I'm just funny that way.
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/20/2008 3:21:51 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4478
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: drmark
God foreknows the intent of my heart but He does not predetermine it.
Pharaoh cannot say that... God changed his heart so they he wouldn't let God's people go... Go figure...Wasn't that what it was all about? Oh wait... Why did He raise Pharaoh into power... To show His power and glory to the world... To show that even the most powerful human is no match for Him...
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You may not be willing to say this publicly, but it is the only logical conclusion if particular men are predestined to Heaven.
That is the logical conclusion of any belief system that believes in hell in the sense that prior to creation God knew who would believe and who wouldn't yet created them anyways...
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I praise the Lord that His grace is in control of my soul. I'm also humbled that He allows me have a say in my eternal destiny.
Paradox...
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This actually leads to a sense of privelege and responsibility in living my life daily for Christ's sake.I cannot understand how a theology of predeterminism will lead to anything but apathy and fatalism.
I cannot understand how the theology of I saved myself will not lead to pride beyond that of even Peter...
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My relationship with God is partnership, not puppetry!
What did you offer God that He didn't have to give you in the first place?
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Indeed Sammy, thank God it's all about His Love for us!!
How can it be all about His love for us if man has as much say in salvation as the Creator of all things? It's just as much about man's ability as it is God's accoring to your doctrine of partnership.
Can't give God all the glory and claim man is just as responsible of his own salvation… Paul said he worked more than anyone else, but said it was the grace of God, not his work, not I...
John
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/20/2008 3:25:11 PM
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justajerk
Posts: 123
Joined: 4/30/2008
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No, they're not Sammy's scriptures - they're God's Word. Yes, I do have strong feelings about false doctrine resulting from misunderstanding Truth. If you perceive that as "struck a nerve" and "lash out so forcefully", that is your free will to decide! God foreknows the intent of my heart but He does not predetermine it.
I'm alway's amazed at the vitriol that is thrown about... and although it sometimes comes from the reformed, I find the most angry responses come from the individual who's pride will not allow God to be sovereign. Much in the same way in which the pharisees reacted when confronted with their own self-righteousness.
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I cannot understand how a theology of predeterminism will lead to anything but apathy and fatalism. My relationship with God is partnership, not puppetry! So God does share His throne? I believe that your choice to choose God was just as real as you do, the same as my choice was a real decision to follow Christ. We made the choice, but in order to make the choice something had to be done within us first. That is the difference. Why did you choose Christ and the guy who grew up just like you didn't? Are you smarter? Maybe more humble?
Study Pauls journey to Rome, in which the ship he was on was wrecked. He was told (by an angel) that all would live, yet he also took measures to make sure that all did certain things; like keeping the sailors on the boat when they were going to abandon it (somebody had to handle the ship), or eating to gain strength. Why would he say this if the angel had told him they were all going to live? And why did the Centurian stop his men from killing the prisoners? Maybe he had grown to like Paul... we don't know. But he made a choice not to kill the prisoners, which fit directly with what the Angel had told Paul. These were all individual choices, but they were also completing exactly what God had predestined to happen. - (Acts 27)
God uses means, and we have responsibilities. His Sovereign will and our will go hand in hand. We make our decisions but somehow they line up directly with His predestined plan.
Look at the Assyrian King who God used to chastise the Israelites. God used the King as His disciplining whip, yet the King attacked Israel out of his own wicked heart, and even boasted about it. Then God punished the king for his arrogance.
15Shall the axe boast over him who hews with it,
or the saw magnify itself against him who wields it?
As if a rod should wield him who lifts it,
or as if a staff should lift him who is not wood!-(Isaiah 10:5-19)
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/20/2008 4:03:38 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3265
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
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So God does share His throne? quote:
His Sovereign will and our will go hand in hand. Exactly, jaj, you've answered your own question! We often forget that Ephesians 2:10 goes right along with 2:8-9.
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We make our decisions but somehow they line up directly with His predestined plan. Right again, jaj! It is the plan that is predestined, NOT the individual person.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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