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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/21/2008 4:31:30 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3150
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quote:
They only love Him with the heart He gave them Yes, a heart that can choose to obey or disobey, just like Adam and Eve could choose. It all makes sense, John, from Genesis to Revelation we are moral agents free to accept God's Love or reject It. I'm glad you and I chose wisely, by His grace through our faith!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/21/2008 4:46:47 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
They only love Him with the heart He gave them Yes, a heart that can choose to obey or disobey, just like Adam and Eve could choose. It all makes sense, John, from Genesis to Revelation we are moral agents free to accept God's Love or reject It. I'm glad you and I chose wisely, by His grace through our faith!
We must be changed to love God... We cannot love God with what we are born with, we must be changed. I only chose Him BECAUSE He chose me in spite of the fact I was dead in my sin and rebellious...
John
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/21/2008 4:57:01 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3150
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quote:
We cannot love God with what we are born with, we must be changed. Agreed. I call that (prevenient) grace. What do you call it - predestination? So if God predestines some to change then He must predestine others not to change? So God is sending lost souls to Hell according to your belief system.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/21/2008 8:16:54 PM
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tdd1975
Posts: 418
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quote:
Arminians, John. How can Calvinists be judged on anything - their every breath is predestined, remember?
You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
_____________________________
(Isaiah 33:17) Your eyes will behold the king in his beauty;
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/21/2008 10:04:06 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
We cannot love God with what we are born with, we must be changed. Agreed. I call that (prevenient) grace. What do you call it - predestination? So if God predestines some to change then He must predestine others not to change? So God is sending lost souls to Hell according to your belief system.
I call it unmerited favor... God removes whomever He choose from the pit of filth that is hellbound and why and who is completely in His hand... No sinner has anything to offer God, nor can they make themselves worthy of anything other than His wrath...
John
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/21/2008 10:16:34 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 1686
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
So God is sending lost souls to Hell according to your belief system.
God is sending sinners/lost souls to hell in both Arminianist and Calvinist belief systems. If you don't want to acknowledge that, you're a Universalist.
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/21/2008 10:47:55 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1138
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
I was taught in Arminian churches that God is omniscient. Arminians teach that an omniscient God, Who knows who will be saved and who won't, paid for the sins of those who finally have eternal life as well as the sins of those who finally are sent to hell. I don't understand this.
Getting your sins forgiven is not salvation.
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/21/2008 10:58:34 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 1686
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
I was taught in Arminian churches that God is omniscient. Arminians teach that an omniscient God, Who knows who will be saved and who won't, paid for the sins of those who finally have eternal life as well as the sins of those who finally are sent to hell. I don't understand this.
Getting your sins forgiven is not salvation.
My understanding is that having our sins remitted reconciles us to God. It is our sins that have separated us from God.
Isaiah 59
2But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
Colossians 1
21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled.
It is also my understanding that the only way to have our sins forgiven is by our coming to faith in Christ.
Acts 26
18To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/21/2008 11:01:06 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1138
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
I was taught in Arminian churches that God is omniscient. Arminians teach that an omniscient God, Who knows who will be saved and who won't, paid for the sins of those who finally have eternal life as well as the sins of those who finally are sent to hell. I don't understand this.
Getting your sins forgiven is not salvation.
My understanding is that having our sins remitted reconciles us to God. It is our sins that have separated us from God.
Isaiah 59
2But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
Colossians 1
21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled.
It is also my understanding that the only way to have our sins forgiven is by our coming to faith in Christ.
Acts 26
18To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Getting your sins forgiven is not salvation.
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/21/2008 11:10:24 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 1686
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
quote:
Ezra -So unless you can prove from Scripture that regeneration precedes faith, you should believe what I have pointed out.
(Acts 16:14) One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.
Ephesians, I pray that God opens the heart of your family to the gospel just as He did Lydia.
Thank you! And that verse is an encouragement. The Lord opened her heart and that is what is needed with each of my family members.
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/21/2008 11:13:33 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 1686
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
I was taught in Arminian churches that God is omniscient. Arminians teach that an omniscient God, Who knows who will be saved and who won't, paid for the sins of those who finally have eternal life as well as the sins of those who finally are sent to hell. I don't understand this.
Getting your sins forgiven is not salvation.
My understanding is that having our sins remitted reconciles us to God. It is our sins that have separated us from God.
Isaiah 59
2But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
Colossians 1
21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled.
It is also my understanding that the only way to have our sins forgiven is by our coming to faith in Christ.
Acts 26
18To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Getting your sins forgiven is not salvation.
Do you actually believe God forgives the sins of all people and still sends them to hell? Are you, by chance, a Universalist?  Instead of repeating that getting your sins forgiven is not salvation, could you explain what you believe salvation is?
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/21/2008 11:21:00 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1138
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
I was taught in Arminian churches that God is omniscient. Arminians teach that an omniscient God, Who knows who will be saved and who won't, paid for the sins of those who finally have eternal life as well as the sins of those who finally are sent to hell. I don't understand this.
Getting your sins forgiven is not salvation.
My understanding is that having our sins remitted reconciles us to God. It is our sins that have separated us from God.
Isaiah 59
2But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
Colossians 1
21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled.
It is also my understanding that the only way to have our sins forgiven is by our coming to faith in Christ.
Acts 26
18To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Getting your sins forgiven is not salvation.
Do you actually believe God forgives the sins of all people and still sends them to hell? Are you, by chance, a Universalist? Instead of repeating that getting your sins forgiven is not salvation, could you explain what you believe salvation is?
Salvation is the receiving of life, Christ's resurrected life. The wages of sin is death. The only thing a dead person needs is life.
"For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through His life! " Rom 5:10
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/21/2008 11:25:22 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 1686
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
Status: offline
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Okay, are you saying that everyone is reconciled by His death or only some? Do you actually believe God forgives the sins of all people and still sends them to hell? Are you, by chance, a Universalist?
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/21/2008 11:30:37 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1138
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
Okay, are you saying that everyone is reconciled by His death or only some? Do you actually believe God forgives the sins of all people and still sends them to hell? Are you, by chance, a Universalist?
quote:
I was taught in Arminian churches that God is omniscient. Arminians teach that an omniscient God, Who knows who will be saved and who won't, paid for the sins of those who finally have eternal life as well as the sins of those who finally are sent to hell. I don't understand this.
The only way you could think me a universalist is if you believe salvation is getting your sins forgiven. It is not. Salvation is the receiving of life, eternal life. Whether you believe this or not it is still the answer to you question you asked.
quote:
I was taught in Arminian churches that God is omniscient. Arminians teach that an omniscient God, Who knows who will be saved and who won't, paid for the sins of those who finally have eternal life as well as the sins of those who finally are sent to hell. I don't understand this.
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/21/2008 11:49:37 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 1686
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
Okay, are you saying that everyone is reconciled by His death or only some? Do you actually believe God forgives the sins of all people and still sends them to hell? Are you, by chance, a Universalist?
quote:
I was taught in Arminian churches that God is omniscient. Arminians teach that an omniscient God, Who knows who will be saved and who won't, paid for the sins of those who finally have eternal life as well as the sins of those who finally are sent to hell. I don't understand this.
The only way you could think me a universalist is if you believe salvation is getting your sins forgiven. It is not. Salvation is the receiving of life, eternal life. Whether you believe this or not it is still the answer to you question you asked.
Why aren't you answering my questions? Do you believe that God forgives all sins and still sends people to hell?
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/21/2008 11:58:50 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1138
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
Okay, are you saying that everyone is reconciled by His death or only some? Do you actually believe God forgives the sins of all people and still sends them to hell? Are you, by chance, a Universalist?
quote:
I was taught in Arminian churches that God is omniscient. Arminians teach that an omniscient God, Who knows who will be saved and who won't, paid for the sins of those who finally have eternal life as well as the sins of those who finally are sent to hell. I don't understand this.
The only way you could think me a universalist is if you believe salvation is getting your sins forgiven. It is not. Salvation is the receiving of life, eternal life. Whether you believe this or not it is still the answer to you question you asked.
Why aren't you answering my questions? Do you believe that God forgives all sins and still sends people to hell?
I have answered your questions, and no I do not believe God sends anyone to hell, He doesn't have to, they are headed there already. That is the point of salvation. Without receiving life the dead simply continue on to where they were already heading. The wages of sin is death, the gift of God is life.
Good night
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/22/2008 12:02:38 AM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 1686
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
They only love Him with the heart He gave them Yes, a heart that can choose to obey or disobey, just like Adam and Eve could choose. It all makes sense, John, from Genesis to Revelation we are moral agents free to accept God's Love or reject It. I'm glad you and I chose wisely, by His grace through our faith!
Adam and Eve weren't depraved, so they weren't enslaved to sin.
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/22/2008 12:18:41 AM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 1686
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
Status: offline
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URForgiven, are you saying that everyone is reconciled by His death or only some? Do you actually believe forgiven people will go to hell?
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
Why aren't you answering my questions? Do you believe that God forgives all sins and still sends people to hell?
I have answered your questions,
Really?
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
...and no I do not believe God sends anyone to hell, He doesn't have to, they are headed there already. That is the point of salvation. Without receiving life the dead simply continue on to where they were already heading. The wages of sin is death, the gift of God is life.
Good night
Did God create hell? Does He give the order that His angels should cast people into hell? Does He decide who goes there?
Matthew 3
10And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Matthew 13
41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Matthew 22
13Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Revelation 20
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/22/2008 12:51:00 AM
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apologist1948
Posts: 27
Joined: 11/19/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
I was taught in Arminian churches that God is omniscient. Arminians teach that an omniscient God, Who knows who will be saved and who won't, paid for the sins of those who finally have eternal life as well as the sins of those who finally are sent to hell. I don't understand this.
Getting your sins forgiven is not salvation.
My understanding is that having our sins remitted reconciles us to God. It is our sins that have separated us from God.
Isaiah 59
2But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
Colossians 1
21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled.
It is also my understanding that the only way to have our sins forgiven is by our coming to faith in Christ.
Acts 26
18To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Getting your sins forgiven is not salvation.
I'm sorry. Did I miss something? Did you stutter or re-post intentionally? I have know idea what you are trying to convey with this mantra. Can one get to heaven without having his/her sins forgiven?
Honestly, URF. I am not trying to be difficult, but I am find your responses a liilr more than confusing to follow. In the first few years of my Christian walk (I started that walk on 21 May 1982, - twesty-six years ago, praise God), I would have to describe myself as an Ariminian [if that is a requirement of been one Christian]. HOWEVER, I rarely did use that moniker. To me it was far more important to label myself has a born again Christian!
Does it really matter if one is a born again Calvinist or a born again Ariminian? Does anyone truely believe that God only want and cares for the Born Again Arminian only? Perhaps He would be pleased with some Born Again Calvinists?
I ASK, DOES IT REALLY MATTER HOW YOU GET TO GOD? Or DOES IT MATTER THAT YOU GOT TO GOD [PERIOD!
Again, my apologies if I steppted on someone's theological toes, but I have seen way too many mudslinging posts for me to remain silent and for anyone to call this a Christian Forum. You gals (and guys) are not in the Civil War. You can call it blunt - but I call it RUDE and un-Godly. Please, please repent before we loose we lose the none believing audience that we DO have.
Thanks for listening.
< Message edited by apologist1948 -- 5/22/2008 2:02:48 AM >
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/22/2008 12:55:23 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1785
Status: offline
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quote:
Okay, are you saying that everyone is reconciled by His death or only some? Do you actually believe God forgives the sins of all people and still sends them to hell? Are you, by chance, a Universalist?
quote:
Why aren't you answering my questions? Do you believe that God forgives all sins and still sends people to hell?
Introducing the "Universalist" bogeyman into this discussion is merely counterproductive. However, the questions above assume that Christ's one great atoning sarcifice for the sins of all humanity automatically equates to the forgiveness of sins for all humanity. It does not and Scripture makes this very clear.
The Gospel truths which all should remember and remind themselves of are these:
1. Christ came into the world to save sinners, and He also came to seek and to save that which was lost.
2. All human beings are lost, sinners, enemies and aliens, without hope and without Christ until they believe the Gospel and repent.
3. When Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, He paid the full penalty for absolutely every sin of every human being -- as Scripture says, He is the Propitiation for the sins of the whole world.
4. The penalty for sins has been paid, but in order for that reality to become the individual sinner's reality, he or she must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and repent.
5. Remission (or forgiveness) of sins follows repentance, therefore it is misleading and false to state that Christ's death automatically provided forgiveness fo all sinners. Notice carefully what the Holy Spirit says through the apostle Peter in Acts 3:19:
"Repent, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out". This is Gospel truth, since Christ said "And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem" (Luke 24:47).
Why is there so much confusion about Gospel truth? Because the enemy is at work while the Gospel is preached.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/22/2008 12:59:29 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1785
Status: offline
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quote:
This is where the train always jumps the track.... You won't get straight answers
The issue is, now that you've got the straight answer from Scripture, do you believe it?
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/22/2008 1:35:16 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
This is where the train always jumps the track.... You won't get straight answers
The issue is, now that you've got the straight answer from Scripture, do you believe it?
Unless you can show your "Holy man moved by the Holy Spirit" card I haved to say no to your personal view of Scripture... Your issues are still your issues... Like the one where you have the flesh pleasing God...
John
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