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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/22/2008 1:56:23 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1827
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quote:
Your issues are still your issues... Like the one where you have the flesh pleasing God...
John:
First of all, I don't believe I have discussed that Scripture in the context of salvation.
Secondly, you keep referring to it without showing us why it should be applied in this discussion. In fact, Romans 8:8 is a misapplication of Scripture in this context. It is speaking of those who walk after the flesh even though they have been saved and possess the Holy Spirit.
The issue is not whether those who are in the flesh can please God (which they cannot) but whether sinners can believe the Gospel and be saved (which is what Scripture reveals).
Obviously, you don't believe what Scripture reveals, which of course is your prerogative.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/22/2008 8:40:03 AM
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drmark
Posts: 3075
Joined: 7/10/2006
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So what you you have us post, apologist1948? Something like this:
My goodness, I certainly can understand why you Calvinists feel the way you do about God's Sovereignty. And I certainly can understand why you Arminians feel the way you do about God's Love. So it's perfectly all right if you want to distort and ignore Scripture because, after all, we are all brothers and sisters here regardless of what we believe or why we believe it. So let's just have one big group hug and forget about the baby Believers that are reading these nasty posts. It's far more important that they see fellow Christians agreeing on any old doctrine. Who cares if doctrine is right or wrong, as long as it's not divisive.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/22/2008 8:54:55 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1212
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: apologist1948
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
I was taught in Arminian churches that God is omniscient. Arminians teach that an omniscient God, Who knows who will be saved and who won't, paid for the sins of those who finally have eternal life as well as the sins of those who finally are sent to hell. I don't understand this.
I'm sorry. Did I miss something? Did you stutter or re-post intentionally? I have know idea what you are trying to convey with this mantra. Can one get to heaven without having his/her sins forgiven?
I repeated the answer because the answer was still the same, and the person asking was not seeing the answer. She still does not see. Instead she and others here simply chose to place me into one of their neat pre-programmed categories, so they could then cease to deal with me as an individual, to their own detriment. I believe they have a word for that?
I will repeat it again for those who seem to think I am not giving straight answers. Salvation is not getting your sins forgiven, Salvation is the receiving of life, Christ's resurrected life, eternal life. The problem with mankind is not that they need their sins forgiven, though they do, the problem is they are dead and need life.
For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through His life! Romans 5:10
You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. … But God demonstrates His own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through Him! Romans 5: 6, 8-9
And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 1 John 5:11-13
We are not saved by the death of Christ...we are saved by His life.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/22/2008 9:09:22 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1212
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
Did God create hell? Does He give the order that His angels should cast people into hell? Does He decide who goes there?
Yes, God created Hell. It is for Satan and his minions. It is for all those who have chosen independence from God. Hell is where those who choose independence from God get what they desire, eternal independence from God.
< Message edited by URForgiven -- 5/22/2008 9:26:47 AM >
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/22/2008 10:35:13 AM
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apologist1948
Posts: 26
Joined: 11/19/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
So what you you have us post, apologist1948? Something like this:
My goodness, I certainly can understand why you Calvinists feel the way you do about God's Sovereignty. And I certainly can understand why you Arminians feel the way you do about God's Love. So it's perfectly all right if you want to distort and ignore Scripture because, after all, we are all brothers and sisters here regardless of what we believe or why we believe it. So let's just have one big group hug and forget about the baby Believers that are reading these nasty posts. It's far more important that they see fellow Christians agreeing on any old doctrine. Who cares if doctrine is right or wrong, as long as it's not divisive.
I can see that my message went way over your head. Where did I say that we all needed to have a group hug and have the kumbaya mind set? I didn't say that AT ALL. The only point I was trying to make is that there are ways of communicating without being nasty about. I believe that I used scripture to point out how we should talk with each other. No where did I say that you should have to compromise what you believe and no where did I say that it was just the Arminians who where doing it. I saw it from both sides and, I believe, that both sides will come out losers because of the verbage being thrown around. As far as the "baby Christians" are concerned, if I saw this thread tewnty-seven years ago, I would have turned around and walked out on both parties. If a person can not be civil discussing God, then what can they be civil about? Sorry if I stepped on your toes. BTW, if I have to fit into one of the two boxes being bantered about here (Calvinist vs. Arminianist) I fear that I will have to fall in the latter camp, admitting this at the risk of being confused with true follower of Jesus Christ ONLY.
Again, my apologies for addressing your style of communication. If you feel that the only way to convey your point of view is to rant and rave, then by all means, proceed.
< Message edited by apologist1948 -- 5/22/2008 10:52:02 AM >
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/22/2008 10:41:55 AM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 1617
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
I repeated the answer because the answer was still the same, and the person asking was not seeing the answer. She still does not see. Instead she and others here simply chose to place me into one of their neat pre-programmed categories, so they could then cease to deal with me as an individual, to their own detriment. I believe they have a word for that?
I will repeat it again for those who seem to think I am not giving straight answers. Salvation is not getting your sins forgiven, Salvation is the receiving of life, Christ's resurrected life, eternal life. The problem with mankind is not that they need their sins forgiven, though they do, the problem is they are dead and need life.
For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through His life! Romans 5:10
You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. … But God demonstrates His own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through Him! Romans 5: 6, 8-9
And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 1 John 5:11-13
We are not saved by the death of Christ...we are saved by His life.
Peace
Without His death on the cross, there would be no eternal life. The wages of sin is death and the only way to make restitution for our sins is for Jesus Christ to do it with His precious blood. Without the payment for our sins, we receive the wages of sin.
quote:
1 Corinthians 1
18For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
quote:
Hebrews 9
11But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
18Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
19For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
20Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
21Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
22And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
23It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
quote:
Galatians 3
13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
quote:
Ephesians 1
7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
We cannot be sanctified if we have not been justified.
quote:
Romans 5
1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Only those who have been justified have peace with God.
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/22/2008 1:05:59 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1212
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
I repeated the answer because the answer was still the same, and the person asking was not seeing the answer. She still does not see. Instead she and others here simply chose to place me into one of their neat pre-programmed categories, so they could then cease to deal with me as an individual, to their own detriment. I believe they have a word for that?
I will repeat it again for those who seem to think I am not giving straight answers. Salvation is not getting your sins forgiven, Salvation is the receiving of life, Christ's resurrected life, eternal life. The problem with mankind is not that they need their sins forgiven, though they do, the problem is they are dead and need life.
For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through His life! Romans 5:10
You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. … But God demonstrates His own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through Him! Romans 5: 6, 8-9
And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 1 John 5:11-13
We are not saved by the death of Christ...we are saved by His life.
Peace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
Without His death on the cross, there would be no eternal life. The wages of sin is death and the only way to make restitution for our sins is for Jesus Christ to do it with His precious blood. Without the payment for our sins, we receive the wages of sin.
Christ's shed blood on the cross is what has provided forgiveness of sins. Forgiveness of sins is what then makes it possible for us to receive divine life, eternal life, Christ's life. The only answer to death...is life. And the only One who has life is Christ.
I am in no way trying to convince you this is true. You asked how it is that God can forgive a persons sins, and that person still end up in hell. The answer is still the same now as it was then, because getting our sins forgiven is not salvation, it is the "clearing of the deck", that makes it then possible to receive Christ's resurrected life. Salvation is receiving life, and that life is in Jesus Christ.
Coming to Christ only to get your sins forgiven is to miss the Gospel entirely. We are not saved by coming to Christ for what He did...we are saved by accepting Christ Himself...in Christ you HAVE forgiveness of sins and eternal life.
Peace
< Message edited by URForgiven -- 5/22/2008 1:39:25 PM >
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/22/2008 1:59:24 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
John:
First of all, I don't believe I have discussed that Scripture in the context of salvation.
Secondly, you keep referring to it without showing us why it should be applied in this discussion. In fact, Romans 8:8 is a misapplication of Scripture in this context. It is speaking of those who walk after the flesh even though they have been saved and possess the Holy Spirit.
That's not the context...
quote:
The issue is not whether those who are in the flesh can please God (which they cannot) but whether sinners can believe the Gospel and be saved (which is what Scripture reveals).
That would have those in the flesh pleasing God...
quote:
Obviously, you don't believe what Scripture reveals, which of course is your prerogative.
I don't believe you...
John
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/22/2008 4:12:02 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3075
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
Again, my apologies for addressing your style of communication. If you feel that the only way to convey your point of view is to rant and rave, then by all means, proceed. No apology required, apologist1948. If you feel that upholding sound doctrine equates to ranting and raving, then I will proceed!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/22/2008 11:57:12 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1827
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Again, my apologies for addressing your style of communication. If you feel that the only way to convey your point of view is to rant and rave, then by all means, proceed. No apology required, apologist1948. If you feel that upholding sound doctrine equates to ranting and raving, then I will proceed!
apologist1948:
There is a very critical issue at stake, and that is the infinite and unmeasurable value of the perfect redemptive work of Christ as applied to all humanity. Either Christ is indeed the propitiation for the sins of the whole world, or He is not.
The Bible affirms -- God affirms -- in no uncertain terms:
1. That all human beings are sinners.
2. The wages of sin is death --- physical and eternal.
3. Christ Jesus is the Lamb of God who took away the sin of the world. That Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world.
4. Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures.
5. Christ rose again the third day for our justification, according to the Scriptures.
6. God so loved the world -- all humanity -- that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:16).
7. God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
8. God will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
9. In order to be saved, we must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, repent of our sins, and receive Him as Lord and Savior.
10. Salvation is by God's grace through faith in Christ -- the Son of God --and His perfect sacrifice on the Cross for our redemption, as well as His glorious resurrection for our justification.
11. It is not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to God's mercy that He saves us.
12. Those who are saved receive remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Spirit, the gift of eternal life, and the gift of God Himself and Christ Himself.
13. Those who believe the Gospel and receive Christ become children of God through the New Birth. In order to see and enter the Kingdom of God, we must be born again.
14. All those who believe must be baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
The issue really boils down to one question -- is John 3:16 true or false?
If it is true, all false teaching about the Gospel must be exposed for what it is -- a denial of Gospel truth.
If it is false, then there is no Gospel, and we are of all men most miserable.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/23/2008 12:14:32 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Again, my apologies for addressing your style of communication. If you feel that the only way to convey your point of view is to rant and rave, then by all means, proceed. No apology required, apologist1948. If you feel that upholding sound doctrine equates to ranting and raving, then I will proceed!
apologist1948:
There is a very critical issue at stake, and that is the infinite and unmeasurable value of the perfect redemptive work of Christ as applied to all humanity. Either Christ is indeed the propitiation for the sins of the whole world, or He is not.
The Bible affirms -- God affirms -- in no uncertain terms:
1. That all human beings are sinners.
2. The wages of sin is death --- physical and eternal.
3. Christ Jesus is the Lamb of God who took away the sin of the world. That Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world.
4. Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures.
5. Christ rose again the third day for our justification, according to the Scriptures.
6. God so loved the world -- all humanity -- that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:16).
7. God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
8. God will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
9. In order to be saved, we must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, repent of our sins, and receive Him as Lord and Savior.
10. Salvation is by God's grace through faith in Christ -- the Son of God --and His perfect sacrifice on the Cross for our redemption, as well as His glorious resurrection for our justification.
11. It is not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to God's mercy that He saves us.
12. Those who are saved receive remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Spirit, the gift of eternal life, and the gift of God Himself and Christ Himself.
13. Those who believe the Gospel and receive Christ become children of God through the New Birth. In order to see and enter the Kingdom of God, we must be born again.
14. All those who believe must be baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
The issue really boils down to one question -- is John 3:16 true or false?
If it is true, all false teaching about the Gospel must be exposed for what it is -- a denial of Gospel truth.
If it is false, then there is no Gospel, and we are of all men most miserable.
When was the thief on the cross baptized?
John
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/23/2008 7:03:39 AM
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tdd1975
Posts: 425
Joined: 2/12/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
The issue really boils down to one question -- is John 3:16 true or false?
John 3:16 is absolutely true. No one denies that. Whosoever believes and whosoever wills may come. The problem with fallen man is that they are not willing. There is none good no not one. There is none who seeks God. There is none who does righteous. God has concluded all in unbelief.
Yes it is open to whoever will come but the bible denies and God denies that any are willing. God said that it is not of him that willeth. Period. God makes men willing in the day of his power Psalm 110. That is what the OP wants for her relatives and I want for my unsaved friends and family. Yes we want them to come and drink of the water of life. But they are dead in trespasses and sin. They don't even know they are thirsty. They don't even know their need of a Savior. They need God to show up, break their hearts, and draw them to Himself.
So yes John 3:16 is absolutely true. John 3:19 is just as true
19And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil.
Men love darkness not light. We need God to give them new hearts with new desires. We need God to turn them from the power of darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God. Acts 26:18
If we want our loved ones and friends to be saved we have got to go to the one whose arm is not short to save. We have got to go to the one who can save and quit bowing down to the idol known as "freewill".
_____________________________
(Isaiah 33:17) Your eyes will behold the king in his beauty;
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/23/2008 7:45:21 AM
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drmark
Posts: 3075
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
We have got to go to the one who can save and quit bowing down to the idol known as "freewill". So does anyone "go to the One that saves" kicking and screaming while He drags them along? Is that how it works, tdd1975? I submit sinners go with a contrite heart enabled by the prevenient grace of an all-loving AND all-knowing God!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/23/2008 10:49:41 AM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 1617
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
We have got to go to the one who can save and quit bowing down to the idol known as "freewill". So does anyone "go to the One that saves" kicking and screaming while He drags them along? Is that how it works, tdd1975? I submit sinners go with a contrite heart enabled by the prevenient grace of an all-loving AND all-knowing God!
"A common misconception about the doctrine of irresistible grace is that it implies men are forced to accept Christ and men are dragged kicking and screaming into heaven. Of course neither of these are accurate descriptions of the doctrine of irresistible grace as revealed in the Bible. In fact the heart of irresistible grace is the transforming power of the Holy Spirit whereby He takes a man dead in his trespasses and sins and gives him spiritual life so that he can recognize the unsurpassing value of God’s offer of salvation. Then having been set free from the bondage of sin, that man willingly comes to Christ."
http://www.gotquestions.org/irresistible-grace.html
(My thanks to Conquered who showed us this.)
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/23/2008 10:54:59 AM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 1617
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
They don't even know they are thirsty. They don't even know their need of a Savior. They need God to show up, break their hearts, and draw them to Himself.
So yes John 3:16 is absolutely true. John 3:19 is just as true
19And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil.
Men love darkness not light. We need God to give them new hearts with new desires. We need God to turn them from the power of darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God. Acts 26:18
This is what I see. My family doesn't even know that they need a Savior.
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/23/2008 11:18:20 AM
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drmark
Posts: 3075
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
In fact the heart of irresistible grace is the transforming power of the Holy Spirit whereby He takes a man dead in his trespasses and sins and gives him spiritual life so that he can recognize the unsurpassing value of God’s offer of salvation. Then having been set free from the bondage of sin, that man willingly comes to Christ." So why did you start this thread, Eph4_32? You already take it as fact that God picks and chooses whom to save and whom to damn based on His unknowable decrees. You've already answered your title question and should be praising God that your unsaved family is deserving of His attention regardless of where the Holy Spirit takes them. Personally, this is the most fatalistic doctrine I've ever seen and I plan to pray God's prevenient grace over your loved ones every time He brings them to my mind!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/23/2008 8:33:34 PM
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dmp1954
Posts: 1
Joined: 3/7/2008
Status: offline
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There are many scriptures which refer to choice; however, not unless there has been a work of God in your life first. If I am correct and the Bible says that I am: Romans 10:13 "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
2Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
John 1:12-13 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
"This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.." 1 Timothy 2:3-5
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/23/2008 9:11:36 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
We have got to go to the one who can save and quit bowing down to the idol known as "freewill". So does anyone "go to the One that saves" kicking and screaming while He drags them along? Is that how it works, tdd1975? I submit sinners go with a contrite heart enabled by the prevenient grace of an all-loving AND all-knowing God!
The only contrite heart is the one that replaced the one of stone... It's only then to we walk the path, and why? Because he causes us too... Kicking and screaming... No... From death we are raised by Him, for Him, and for Him to show of His great mercy towards us to the whole world, in spite of the truth He could leave everyone on the path to hell and be just...
Ezekiel 36:26-27 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Colossians 2:13-14 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
John
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/23/2008 9:27:25 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: drmark
Personally, this is the most fatalistic doctrine I've ever seen and I plan to pray God's prevenient grace over your loved ones every time He brings them to my mind!
What is the point of a praying for prevenient grace? Isn't that like praying for the sky to be blue?
Heh... Whenever I see the doctrine of prevenient grace I picture poor Mr. Wesley trying to balance the doctrines of original sin,salvation by grace, God's sovereignty and holy character with <cough> man's freedom... Of course man isn't free, but that's why it never does balance...
The doctrine of universal enablement falls flat because it somehow brings man to some place where he either chooses or doesn't yet the bible only speaks of two states of being, not a third; some state of possible transition.
One is either in the flesh or in the Spirit, sealed by the Holy Spirit...
John
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/23/2008 11:32:39 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1827
Status: offline
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If we want our loved ones and friends to be saved we have got to go to the one whose arm is not short to save.
Assuming that you believe that election and predestination are for salvation to Heaven or damnation to Hell, would it not be utterly pointless to "go to the One whose arm is not short to save"?
Would God not respond by saying "Since you promote the notion that salvation is by decree and by predeterminism, why do you even pray for the salvation of your loved ones and friends? I have already elected some for Heaven and the majority for Hell, so take comfort in your notion of predestination".
This is the "logic" of your theology, so you might want to reconsider where it eventually leads: to a morass of despair.
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We have got to go to the one who can save and quit bowing down to the idol known as "freewill".
Those who believe that God ultimately allows human beings to make their choices after they have heard the Gospel and been convicted and convinced, do not idolize "freewill" in the least. It is simply a fact of life, and something which Scripture takes for granted.
Note carefully what God said to Cain, when fallen humanity had almost just appeared on earth, and it will be evident that freewill was a given. Cain was asked to make a choice and a decision (Gen. 4:7). Thus God said to Israel through Joshua "Choose you this day whom ye will serve" (Josh. 24:15). God's majesty and sovereignty are not in the least disturbed when He gives this choice to men. Indeed, it could be no other way in order for men to love God freely. We love Him because He first loved us, not "because He first coerced us".
Freewill however, becomes a serious problem -- "a thorn in the flesh" -- for those who erroneously promote the idea of "irresistible grace". As I have said before, if grace had been truly irresistible, all of Israel would have been saved all of the time. That is the irresistible logic of irresistible grace.
They were the "elect" nation, chosen by God in Abraham, and shown their special status through Moses, and until the coming of Christ, who first came for "the lost sheep of Israel". Yet, it is to the same Israel that Stephen said "Ye do always resist the Holy Ghost". Because Scripture says (on the assumption of freewill) "He came unto His own, AND HIS OWN RECEIVED HIM NOT". This would have been impossible under irresistible grace. So much for irrestible grace.
The errror began when men refused to believe that (1) Christ died for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD, (2) God's grace has appeared to ALL men, and (3) that Christ said that He would draw ALL men to Himself.
Those three facts automatically rule out the election of some to salvation and others to damnation. But they do show why -- because of freewill -- many reject the Gospel and are damned. And they also provide the impetus to pray for the lost, especially our loved ones and friends.
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