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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/24/2008 12:36:31 AM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
Those who believe that God ultimately allows human beings to make their choices after they have heard the Gospel and been convicted and convinced, do not idolize "freewill" in the least. It is simply a fact of life, and something which Scripture takes for granted.
It's fact of man's vanity that anyone believes they choose God...
John
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/24/2008 6:27:35 AM
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Ephesians4_32
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Philippians 4
6Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
1 John 5
14And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/24/2008 6:57:57 AM
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apologist1948
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Again, my apologies for addressing your style of communication. If you feel that the only way to convey your point of view is to rant and rave, then by all means, proceed. No apology required, apologist1948. If you feel that upholding sound doctrine equates to ranting and raving, then I will proceed!
apologist1948:
There is a very critical issue at stake, and that is the infinite and unmeasurable value of the perfect redemptive work of Christ as applied to all humanity. Either Christ is indeed the propitiation for the sins of the whole world, or He is not.
The Bible affirms -- God affirms -- in no uncertain terms:
1. That all human beings are sinners.
2. The wages of sin is death --- physical and eternal.
3. Christ Jesus is the Lamb of God who took away the sin of the world. That Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world.
4. Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures.
5. Christ rose again the third day for our justification, according to the Scriptures.
6. God so loved the world -- all humanity -- that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:16).
7. God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
8. God will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
9. In order to be saved, we must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, repent of our sins, and receive Him as Lord and Savior.
10. Salvation is by God's grace through faith in Christ -- the Son of God --and His perfect sacrifice on the Cross for our redemption, as well as His glorious resurrection for our justification.
11. It is not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to God's mercy that He saves us.
12. Those who are saved receive remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Spirit, the gift of eternal life, and the gift of God Himself and Christ Himself.
13. Those who believe the Gospel and receive Christ become children of God through the New Birth. In order to see and enter the Kingdom of God, we must be born again.
14. All those who believe must be baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
The issue really boils down to one question -- is John 3:16 true or false?
If it is true, all false teaching about the Gospel must be exposed for what it is -- a denial of Gospel truth.
If it is false, then there is no Gospel, and we are of all men most miserable.
Thank you for taking the time to type this all out, Ezra. I know that I am repeating myself, but at the risk of unnecessary redundancy, it is not the the message that you and your Arminian brothers are posting, it is the method that most people here feel is necessary. Many posters here want to kill the fly with a sledge hammer. If you feel that Arminianism is the only true interpretation of the Gospel, then by all means say so. That doesn't give license to insult, berate and belittle those might believe differently. If the purpose of all of these exchanges is to win souls, I might suggest a different approach.
Of course, this begs the question, "Are only the Arminian Christians saved?" Is it possible that some of the Calvinist Christians truly love God and have come to Jesus Christ for forgivness and accepted Him as the "author and finisher" of their faith?
Thank you for your time.
< Message edited by apologist1948 -- 5/24/2008 7:32:11 AM >
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/24/2008 7:38:56 AM
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apologist1948
Posts: 26
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Again, my apologies for addressing your style of communication. If you feel that the only way to convey your point of view is to rant and rave, then by all means, proceed. No apology required, apologist1948. If you feel that upholding sound doctrine equates to ranting and raving, then I will proceed!
I guess that my question is why are you so angry when you are presenting the Gospel? Do you hope to save souls using the vernacular that you currently deem necessary in your presentation(s)?
Have a nice Memorial Week-end. Remember the Veterans who died for you and me.
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/24/2008 9:16:56 AM
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drmark
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quote:
I guess that my question is why are you so angry when you are presenting the Gospel? And my question for you is how do you know my inner feelings from a few posts on an electronic discussion board? BTW, I am not "presenting the Gospel", I am upholding the truth of Scripture against the man-made doctrines of unconditional election, limited Atonement, and irresistible grace since these false teachings undermine the loving grace of God for ALL His created children. I am disappointed, not angry, that some would view God in such a way and then post their misguided beliefs on a thread designed to offer encouragement to those of us with lost loved ones.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/24/2008 1:18:36 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 1617
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
I guess that my question is why are you so angry when you are presenting the Gospel? And my question for you is how do you know my inner feelings from a few posts on an electronic discussion board? BTW, I am not "presenting the Gospel", I am upholding the truth of Scripture against the man-made doctrines of unconditional election, limited Atonement, and irresistible grace since these false teachings undermine the loving grace of God for ALL His created children. I am disappointed, not angry, that some would view God in such a way and then post their misguided beliefs on a thread designed to offer encouragement to those of us with lost loved ones.
This thread was not designed to offer encouragement to those of us with lost loved ones. I wanted to get biblical answers to the dilemma of those who never come to know God. Since childhood, my mother was under the teaching that good people don't go to hell. "Good" was not defined for her according to the Bible. She was never taught that Jesus was more than a good teacher. She never believed that Satan was any more than a fictional character.
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/24/2008 1:39:14 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
That doesn't give license to insult, berate and belittle those might believe differently.
You mind giving some specific examples? Or is this just your own pet peeve?
Sometimes light must be accompanied by heat. Read Acts chapter 13.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/24/2008 1:44:05 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
I wanted to get biblical answers to the dilemma of those who never come to know God. Since childhood, my mother was under the teaching that good people don't go to hell. "Good" was not defined for her according to the Bible. She was never taught that Jesus was more than a good teacher. She never believed that Satan was any more than a fictional character.
Did your mother ever hear the Gospel clearly proclaimed? There is no "dilemma" if there is no Gospel preached. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.
And even after the Gospel is preached with complete clarity in the power of the Holy Spirit, there are many who will not believe because they love darkness more than light. Again, I refer you to Acts 13.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/24/2008 1:48:51 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
Of course, this begs the question, "Are only the Arminian Christians saved?" Is it possible that some of the Calvinist Christians truly love God and have come to Jesus Christ for forgivness and accepted Him as the "author and finisher" of their faith?
The issue is never whether those of a different persuasion are saved. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
The issue is: What is the true Gospel, and is John 3:16 the true Gospel for all mankind? If it is true, then every deviation from its truth is a false gospel.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/24/2008 2:01:02 PM
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drmark
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quote:
This thread was not designed to offer encouragement to those of us with lost loved ones. I wanted to get biblical answers to the dilemma of those who never come to know God. Well Eph 4_32, you have them now. Sorry I misjudged the purpose of your OP, your sharing personal family details, and the gratitude you expressed earlier in the discussion for encouragement from fellow Believers.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/24/2008 2:04:53 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1827
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quote:
1 John 5
14And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
However, if you believe that God's salvation is limited, and those who will be saved shall be saved since they are the elect, you would not be praying accordind to His perceived will for those who could not possibly be saved! Do you see your dilemma?
According to those of your persuasion, there is no need to pray for those who are guaranteed salvation, and it is futile to pray for those who are guaranteed damnation.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/24/2008 6:00:43 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 1617
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
I wanted to get biblical answers to the dilemma of those who never come to know God. Since childhood, my mother was under the teaching that good people don't go to hell. "Good" was not defined for her according to the Bible. She was never taught that Jesus was more than a good teacher. She never believed that Satan was any more than a fictional character.
Did your mother ever hear the Gospel clearly proclaimed? There is no "dilemma" if there is no Gospel preached. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.
And even after the Gospel is preached with complete clarity in the power of the Holy Spirit, there are many who will not believe because they love darkness more than light. Again, I refer you to Acts 13.
I read all of Acts 13 and have no idea how that refers to my mother. Nor do I know that my mother ever understood the Gospel or even if she heard it. I only know that I have sent it to her in tracts. She doesn't respect my faith and she may never have read those tracts. Her parents weren't Christians, though they though they were since they weren't Jewish.
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/24/2008 6:15:43 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 1617
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
1 John 5
14And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
However, if you believe that God's salvation is limited, and those who will be saved shall be saved since they are the elect, you would not be praying accordind to His perceived will for those who could not possibly be saved! Do you see your dilemma?
No, I don't see it. "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
According to those of your persuasion, there is no need to pray for those who are guaranteed salvation, and it is futile to pray for those who are guaranteed damnation.
Then it is futile for an Arminian to pray for a person's salvation. God is omniscient. He already knows who will be saved and who won't. He knows the future and the future can't possibly depend on man.
When Apollos wanted to go to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples there to welcome him. On arriving, he was a great help to those who by grace had believed. (Acts 18:27)
If I pray for a loved one, will God bring that person to faith against her will? Or does God merely give that person the ability to obey Him? If He gives her the ability to obey Him, hasn't He already guaranteed that ability to every person on earth according to Arminius? 
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/24/2008 6:30:32 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3075
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quote:
Or does God merely give that person the ability to obey Him? If He gives her the ability to obey Him, hasn't He already guaranteed that ability to every person on earth according to Arminius? Yes, that's prevenient grace. No, Eph4_32, that is why we call it conditional election. If it were guaranteed, it would be unconditional! I'm sorry you're having so much difficulty grasping these concepts. Perhaps this article will clarify some of the misconceptions of Arminius that you and so many others seem to have!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/24/2008 7:24:38 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/22/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
We have got to go to the one who can save and quit bowing down to the idol known as "freewill". So does anyone "go to the One that saves" kicking and screaming while He drags them along? Is that how it works, tdd1975? I submit sinners go with a contrite heart enabled by the prevenient grace of an all-loving AND all-knowing God!
Drmark,
Your description just made me envision a person who is being dragged by the arms screaming, "I don't want to be saved. I want nothing to do with God." And then the lightening bolt strikes and Jesus rescues him while kicking and screaming. Afterward, he scratches his head wondering what in the world just happened.
Why wonder. This person was saved even against his wanting it or desiring it or understanding what happened. This is IRRESISTiBLE GRACE.
Heavendweller
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/24/2008 7:45:46 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/22/2007
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
In fact the heart of irresistible grace is the transforming power of the Holy Spirit whereby He takes a man dead in his trespasses and sins and gives him spiritual life so that he can recognize the unsurpassing value of God’s offer of salvation. Then having been set free from the bondage of sin, that man willingly comes to Christ." So why did you start this thread, Eph4_32? You already take it as fact that God picks and chooses whom to save and whom to damn based on His unknowable decrees. You've already answered your title question and should be praising God that your unsaved family is deserving of His attention regardless of where the Holy Spirit takes them. Personally, this is the most fatalistic doctrine I've ever seen and I plan to pray God's prevenient grace over your loved ones every time He brings them to my mind!
So Ephesians, is it fair to say that you are already confident in the doctrine of which you adhere to and believe, and you really just wanted to debate those who oppose 5 Point Calvinism?
Not that there's anything wrong with wanting to debate whatsoever. I just thought at first that you were looking for answers and not sure of what you believed, and were searching.
However, I think from your comments on this thread and elsewhere that you are very convinced in your beliefs which are very much aligned with 5 point Calvinism. With that said, I think you already have arrived at an understanding as to why your mother has not come to faith in Christ. According to 5 point Calvinism, all the answers to this question are already there.
1. Your mother is in a depraved, dead state in which she is separated from God. She cannot believe in Christ death on the cross for her sins because she has not one ounce of ability to do so.
2. Apparently thus far, it seems as though your mother has not been elected by God to be saved from before the foundations of the world. Unless per chance that God changes her heart before she dies and she is saved, thus proving that she is one of the elect.
3. Christ didn't die for your mother's sins because she was not chosen from the foundations of the world to be one of the elect. No matter what you say to her, how many Bible verses you quote, how compassionate you are toward her, none of that will matter if Christ did not die for her.
4. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ has had no effect on her heart nor will it ever have an effect on her heart because she is destined for wrath. Only if she is one of the elect will she be saved since God's grace is irresistible. But this grace will not even come near her if it is not God's will for her to be saved in the first place.
5. If she is actually an elect child of God, then she will bear the fruits of one who is regenerated and the quarantee is that she will continue in faith to the end, since salvation from its beginning to the end is only of God.
Maybe now we can let this thread rest in peace.
Heavendweller
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/24/2008 7:52:34 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/22/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Heh... Whenever I see the doctrine of prevenient grace I picture poor Mr. Wesley trying to balance the doctrines of original sin,salvation by grace, God's sovereignty and holy character with <cough> man's freedom... Of course man isn't free, but that's why it never does balance...
Sovereign,
Poor Mr. Wesley? Not at all. You are aware of how highly George Whitefield thought of him even though he disagreed with some of his beliefs? He considered John Wesley to be a very committed Christian and had great love and respect for him.
Heavendweller
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/24/2008 8:04:44 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/22/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
Philippians 4
6Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
1 John 5
14And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
God may hear your prayers for your loved ones or others to be saved. But, He will not answer your prayers for them to be saved nor will He heed your prayers for them to repent, no matter how much you plead on their behalf, if He has already chosen them to be damned before the foundation of the world. So whether you pray for their salvation, or never pray for their salvation, it matters not one way or the other since God will do what He intends to do irregardless of your prayers.
This is Calvinist doctrine.
Heavendweller
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/24/2008 9:25:28 PM
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tdd1975
Posts: 425
Joined: 2/12/2008
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quote:
Sovereign,
Poor Mr. Wesley? Not at all. You are aware of how highly George Whitefield thought of him even though he disagreed with some of his beliefs? He considered John Wesley to be a very committed Christian and had great love and respect for him.
Heavendweller
I read Mr. Wesley's notes often and have high respect for him, though I disagree with him on freewill. To bad the freewillers on this thread don't share that respect for Calvinists.
_____________________________
(Isaiah 33:17) Your eyes will behold the king in his beauty;
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/24/2008 9:33:10 PM
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tdd1975
Posts: 425
Joined: 2/12/2008
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quote:
Drmark,
Your description just made me envision a person who is being dragged by the arms screaming, "I don't want to be saved. I want nothing to do with God." And then the lightening bolt strikes and Jesus rescues him while kicking and screaming. Afterward, he scratches his head wondering what in the world just happened.
Why wonder. This person was saved even against his wanting it or desiring it or understanding what happened. This is IRRESISTiBLE GRACE.
Heavendweller
I don't recall saying that God saves against our wills but that He makes us willing. Huge difference. God gives us new hearts with new desires.
(Ezekiel 36:26) And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
_____________________________
(Isaiah 33:17) Your eyes will behold the king in his beauty;
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/24/2008 9:34:10 PM
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drmark
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Joined: 7/10/2006
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I have tremendous respect for John Calvin although I disagree with his followers on supralapsarian doctrine. Too bad the supralapsarians on this thread don't share that respect for Wesleyans.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/24/2008 9:50:34 PM
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tdd1975
Posts: 425
Joined: 2/12/2008
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Ezraquote:
However, if you believe that God's salvation is limited, and those who will be saved shall be saved since they are the elect, you would not be praying accordind to His perceived will for those who could not possibly be saved! Do you see your dilemma?
According to those of your persuasion, there is no need to pray for those who are guaranteed salvation, and it is futile to pray for those who are guaranteed damnation.
HD quote:
God may hear your prayers for your loved ones or others to be saved. But, He will not answer your prayers for them to be saved nor will He heed your prayers for them to repent, no matter how much you plead on their behalf, if He has already chosen them to be damned before the foundation of the world. So whether you pray for their salvation, or never pray for their salvation, it matters not one way or the other since God will do what He intends to do irregardless of your prayers.
So what is that Freewillers pray for? Since God is not willing for any to perish and desires all to be saved isn't He already doing everything in His power to make that come about? If He is then I ask you again, exactly what do free willers pray for?
DrMark has already said that God has chosen to limit Himself. So again I ask you exactly what do you pray for?
Does it go something like?
God I am so thankful I am not like other men who think they have to depend on You for everything. I am so thankful I have freewill and the goodness within me to make the right decisions.
< Message edited by tdd1975 -- 5/24/2008 10:06:09 PM >
_____________________________
(Isaiah 33:17) Your eyes will behold the king in his beauty;
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/24/2008 9:56:14 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3075
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
DrMark has already said that God has chosen to limit Himself. I often pray that God would soften the hearts of these undeserving sinners which could be interpreted as asking God to change his mind. Seems to me Abraham did a similar thing in Genesis 18:22-33 when he pleaded for the lives of the condemned. I'm in good company, doncha think!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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