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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/10/2008 3:19:30 PM
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crankius
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quote:
Is your argument that Jesus didn't liberate anyone?
Liberate from what?
He came to be the perfect atonement. I am liberated from God's wrath, and I stand before God with Christ's righteousness.
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Who is now Lord of heaven and earth? What, in Christ, has been swallowed up and defeated?
So you are stating that because mankind is marked with sin, Christ is defeated? Do you not know your Scriptures? I don't intend to be rude, but you are demonstrating a lack of Scriptural understanding.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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[Deleted] - 9/10/2008 3:20:27 PM
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[Deleted] - 9/10/2008 3:24:04 PM
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/10/2008 3:36:13 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4493
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quote:
You didn't answer my question before: Is liberation from domination and oppression part of God's concern or not?
Actually, I did answer your question.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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[Deleted] - 9/10/2008 3:37:40 PM
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/10/2008 3:41:17 PM
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crankius
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
quote:
oppose domination systems?
This is why He died on the cross? You can't seriously be saying this.
So please explain--is this why you think Christ died on the cross?
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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[Deleted] - 9/10/2008 3:45:50 PM
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[Deleted] - 9/10/2008 3:48:45 PM
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/10/2008 3:50:18 PM
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crankius
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I want to know what you think. Did Christ die on the cross to oppose domination systems?
edit--and I promise to come read your answer later...leaving for now.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/10/2008 3:57:48 PM
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jazzact13
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quote:
your lumping me and all "emergents" together (into a class)
Nice attempt at trying to make me say what I didn't say, but it's not going to work. By 'class' in my quote I quite obviously mean economic class, the same way a Marxist may use the word 'class' in regards to class warfare.
And emergent rhetoric is full of that kind of class warfare, emerging. Why else is McLaren out there drumming support for Obama? Because he thinks that Obama's economic ideas of overtaxing the successful and distributing the wealth are somehow good things.
And they hide behind the label of 'social justice'. But in the end, their ideas are not just at all.
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lol. What?? What in the world are you talking about? If you think I am using the poor as a political tool than what is Jesus doing in Luke 4 with his first sermon?
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14 Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about him spread through the whole countryside. 15 He taught in their synagogues, and everyone praised him. 16 He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. And he stood up to read. 17 The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written: 18 "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed, 19 to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor." 20 Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him, 21 and he began by saying to them, "Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing." 22 All spoke well of him and were amazed at the gracious words that came from his lips. "Isn't this Joseph's son?" they asked. 23 Jesus said to them, "Surely you will quote this proverb to me: 'Physician, heal yourself! Do here in your hometown what we have heard that you did in Capernaum.'" 24 "I tell you the truth," he continued, "no prophet is accepted in his hometown. 25 I assure you that there were many widows in Israel in Elijah's time, when the sky was shut for three and a half years and there was a severe famine throughout the land. 26 Yet Elijah was not sent to any of them, but to a widow in Zarephath in the region of Sidon. 27 And there were many in Israel with leprosy in the time of Elisha the prophet, yet not one of them was cleansed--only Naaman the Syrian." 28 All the people in the synagogue were furious when they heard this. 29 They got up, drove him out of the town, and took him to the brow of the hill on which the town was built, in order to throw him down the cliff. 30 But he walked right through the crowd and went on his way.
So, tell us, emerging, where is Jesus using the poor for political means in this sermon?
_____________________________
there is no justice in the rhetoric of class hatred
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[Deleted] - 9/10/2008 4:00:18 PM
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[Deleted] - 9/10/2008 4:01:25 PM
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/10/2008 4:23:25 PM
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mushhead
Posts: 531
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From: Kearns
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Emerging quote:
Emerging,
your belief that Jesus came to oppose domination systems reveals a fundamental flaw in the emergent understanding of the cross. Jesus' crucifixion was not the ultimate act of non-violent resistance against domination systems. Jesus was crucified to pay the penalty for the sins of the world. On the cross Jesus willingly endured the wrath of the Father. On the cross He suffered our punishment for our sins.
Any attempt to redefine the meaning of the Cross will ultimately lead to other doctrinal errors. If the cross isn't about paying the penalty for sins, then what is it about?
This isn't about "emergent understandings" of the cross. Not in the least. The dominant view of the cross up until Anselm was the Christos Victor view of atonement. Some people make the mistake of thinking that is ALL the cross was for and fail to see the mosaic of atonement theories in all of scripture. You are making the same mistake as they by insisting that your theory (and its the newest kid on the block, btw) is the right one.
Not true! The Bible gives the original and ultimate understanding of the Cross. God tells us throughout the Scripture - in both the Old and New Testaments - that Jesus was our substitute. Also, you are incorrect about that the dominant view of the cross was something different before Anselm. Read the writings of the early church fathers and you can find ample references to substitutionary atonement. I must at this point echo Jimbo who rightly calls you to task for relying on extra-Biblical sources to form you doctrine.
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quote:
How are words like redemption and saved reconciled with the reinvented purpose of Jesus' crucifixion. Emergents, with the help of extreme liberal theologians, attempt to answer these questions, but their answers require reinterpreting much of Jesus' teachings and actions. We can see this error in virtually every one your posts, emerging.
Only if one accepts your presupposition that penal sub theory of atonement is the only acceptable theory. ANd what are you using to define "extreme liberal theologians" that you suggest are helping emergents? That is a loaded statement that isn't supported by any facts. More importantly, it makes the mistake of trying to prove your point only by guilt by association. I can't speak for all emergents nor can I speak for "extreme" liberal theologians.
As Dr. Ed Stetzer once wrote, the cross might be more than substitutionary atonement, but it is not less. Emergents say it is less.
Extreme Liberal Theologians: Marcus Borg and John Dominic Crossan...just to name two. Franke and Grenz come to mind also.
It is guilt by association. You are the one both espousing and defending the doctrines of the most liberal personalities in the EC - Brian McLaren, Doug Pagitt, Tony Jones, etc.
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quote:
The sad truth is that this reinterpretation of the cross is a classic example of forcing the text to fit one's preconceived beliefs rather than allowing the Scriptures to inform those beliefs. It is a classic example of unbelief (I'm not judging here, as emergents openly say they don't believe).
Don't believe what?
Don't believe what the Bible says about many subjects, e.g. substitutionary atonement, pacifism, hell, etc.
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Another sad truth is that emergents are not particularly honest in their portrayals of history, evangelicalism, philosophy, or the Word of God. These portrayals sound scholarly and make sense to many people, but they are factually inaccurate, and anyone that falls for it is the victim of false teaching.
evidence?
I've already posted evidence. You're failure to provide even one name of an evangelical who believes what McLaren (and you) say we do is evidence enough.
quote:
Mushhead, that is unfair. I could say the same thing about anyone I disagree with and that does not make it true. To claim you or your position alone holds claim to objective reality is not only arrogant but flat out false.
Some things are testable. If they are tested and proven untrue then they are false teachings.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/10/2008 4:35:02 PM
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mushhead
Posts: 531
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Kearns
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
Do you really think that is why He died on the cross?
The answer is, no, I don't think that is His major concern, and Scripture doesn't make it out to be His major concern. There will always be people who dominate. It's called sin.
The Jews also had this same false understanding--they thought Jesus was supposed to liberate them from the current political oppressive forces. Didn't happen.
Crankius, great answer!
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/10/2008 4:38:01 PM
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mushhead
Posts: 531
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Kearns
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
quote:
If MLK or Gandhi had attempted their methods in a different time they most likely would have been slaughtered.
sorta like Jesus.
Jesus wasn't slaughtered. Jesus willingly gave Himself over to crucifixion. Remember what He said? No one takes His life, He willingly gives it up.
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/10/2008 4:44:46 PM
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mushhead
Posts: 531
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From: Kearns
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
quote:
I don't understand how you reconcile your position in this post with your pacifistic views. On the one hand violence is never the will of God - on the other hand you say that sometimes violence is warranted.
How is my response claiming that sometimes violence is OK? I never said that. You are making the mistake that many make: Pacifism and passivity are not the same thing. Resistance to evil does not have to be violent - Jesus demonstrates this exactly. I can save my wife's life without having to return evil with evil.
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On the one hand, Jesus teaches non-violent resistance - on the other you are not committed to non-violent resistance in every situation.
Well, in this sense you found me out: I am not Jesus. Yes, you are right - Jesus teaches non-violent resistance. However, I am a fallen human being who can only strive to be perfect, as our Father in heaven is perfect. Jesus shows us a new way. As an individual I will often fail at living up to this way. As a member of the Church universal, however, I can hope for the love and support and the prayer with those "called out" and who hold "all things in common" to uplift me as I them as we seek to be a prophetic voice in a fallen world calling people to live into the new reality Jesus has inaugurated.
peace.
So, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that you are falling short of Jesus' teachings; you are committing sin should you take action - short of killing if possible - to protect your wife and daughter from rape? IOW's it is God's will that you stand by and allow the rape even when it is in your power to do something that might prevent it?
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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[Deleted] - 9/10/2008 5:14:58 PM
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/10/2008 5:39:07 PM
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stephanos
Posts: 1041
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Church fathers supporting substitutionary atonement? How about Justin Martyr, Athenasius, Augustine of Hippo just to name a few. You will have to forgive me from giving you exact quotes, but my copies of the works of many of the church fathers are at home, not with me at Seminary right now as my dorm room does not have enough space for them. If you give me about 2 weeks when I go back I would be more than happy to inform more on the who what and where.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/10/2008 5:59:16 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6348
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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* shakes head *
This Emergent movement makes even some in the Jesus Seminar blush....
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/10/2008 6:14:36 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4493
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
I want to know what you think. Did Christ die on the cross to oppose domination systems?
edit--and I promise to come read your answer later...leaving for now.
I thought I did answer. But to say it again: Yes, he did die to oppose domination systems. But that is not the only reason.
Which domination systems did He come to oppose?
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/10/2008 6:32:30 PM
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mushhead
Posts: 531
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Kearns
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quote:
While I want to affirm that I will also qualify it to say that God's wrath is not to be confused with his anger towards us that could only be satiated with killing his own son.
Emerging,
So says you! But what does the Bible say?
quote:
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. (John 3:14,15)
Are you familiar of the account of Moses lifting up a bronze serpent found in Numbers 21:4-7?
quote:
They traveled from Mount Hor along the route to the Red Sea, to go around Edom. But the people grew impatient on the way; 5 they spoke against God and against Moses, and said, “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the desert? There is no bread! There is no water! And we detest this miserable food!”
6 Then the LORD sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. 7 The people came to Moses and said, “We sinned when we spoke against the LORD and against you. Pray that the LORD will take the snakes away from us.” So Moses prayed for the people.
8 The LORD said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, he lived.
Why do you think Jesus compared Himself to the serpent in this event? Why does Jesus compare His being lifted up (obviously referring to the Cross) with this event? The answer is not hard. The Jews in the wilderness had committed sin against God. They admitted as much. They were experiencing God's judgment - God's wrath. They pleaded with Moses to make intercession for them, which Moses did. God told Moses to make a serpent out of bronze and put it on a pole. Anyone that looked at the snake would live.
How does this compare to Jesus' and His crucifixion? Serpents represent sin. We also are dying from the venemous bite of the serpent, sin! Like the Jews in the story, there is nothing we can do to save ourselves, but just as He did in the Numbers account, God has provided us a cure - Jesus' crucifixion. Anyone that admits his or her sin, and looks to Jesus on the cross for the cure will be saved. It is our only hope. Read the story carefully. The only thing that could save the people from the snake bites was looking at the serpent on the pole. Nothing else they did would do any good. They could seek out a doctor; they could try herbal remedies; they could even try to suck the poison out of their systems, but the only thing that would work is the way provided by God. It is the same with the crucifixion. We can look for other solutions, but they will have no effect.
The next question is why did Jesus compare Himself to a serpent? The answer is simple: The serpent represents sin and Jesus became sin for us on the cross.
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God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (2Corinthians 5:21)
Now, pay close attention to the details of the story from Numbers and all that Jesus said to Nicodemus in John 3. The people were experiencing God's wrath for their sin. The only solution was God's provision. In John 3 Jesus compares Himself and us to that event. He says in John 3:16 that we are all under God's wrath, and the only solution is trusting in Him. Also notice that in Hebrews 9:22 that forgiveness is not possible without the shedding of blood. What does all this tell us? Jesus shed His blood on the cross to provide forgiveness for us in order to deliver us from the wrath of God. Only Jesus could provide this salvation...He is the Father's sacrificial lamb. These facts make your contention to the contrary, as well as your contention that substitutionary atonement is relatively new, completely false.
< Message edited by mushhead -- 9/10/2008 7:56:27 PM >
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/10/2008 6:55:16 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4493
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
I will also qualify it to say that God's wrath is not to be confused with his anger towards us that could only be satiated with killing his own son.
What do you gain by removing God's anger towards sin?
What does wrath mean to you?
What does propitiation mean to you?
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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[Deleted] - 9/10/2008 8:12:48 PM
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[Deleted] - 9/10/2008 8:16:04 PM
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