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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/23/2008 7:11:44 PM
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mcleod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kath
quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Webster dictionary writes; meditate to think deeply; to reflect; to empty the mind in order to concentrate on nothing or on one thing, esp as a religious exercise.
If you are going by a Websters definition, Websters 1828 doesn't mention emptying the mind. It seems the definition you are using is a modern interpretation based on the advent of TM and eastern religions where that kind of thing takes place.
1. To dwell on any thing in thought; to contemplate; to study; to turn or revolve any subject in the mind; appropriately but not exclusively used of pious contemplation, or a consideration of the great truths of religion.
Yes I did get it from a later definition. But I will even go with that. Which is to say that I agree with it. And I find nothing wrong in doing it that way.
I think Paul writes about empty the mind of wrong thoughts. Philipians 4:8,9
Beats thinking of hurting someone or killing them.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/23/2008 7:25:44 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2863
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The relevant number isn't that 70% of black families are broken, but rather how much bigger or small is that number today vs back then and what caused any observable change. There's no evidence to support the idea that the civil rights era had no beneficial impact on people's lives. There's plenty of evidence to show that it has.
Yes, we agree that just changing behaviors isn't the way to change the world. In the end, you have to change hearts. But that's not exactly what we're talking about. We're talking about whether or not a Christian can lay claim to truth even when it's found in a non-Christian source, and whether or not someone like a Ghandi has something to offer Christians.
I think we change hearts when we get involved in others lives. I think there are many ways to do this. Ghandi showed MLK one means to do this on a very grand scale.
I think MLK would have been an idiot not to have learned from his example. By the simple fact that he did indeed learn the lessons Ghandi had to teach, he became an extremely successful instrument of social change. Now the church had the opportunity to capitalize on that, but if failed to do so. Largely, the conservative denominations stood against social change back then.
I think we continue to pay the price for having done so.
The lesson for me here is that the church grows when we get involved in others' lives. There we have agreement. I believe others' hearts are changed when we get involved in their behaviors and work with them to address their issues today and alleviate suffering. I believe this opens the door to the message of Christ. I believe that Ghandi, just as an example, provided MLK with some incredibly powerful tools to do this on a tremendous scale. In that sense, Ghandi could have provided the church with a powerful evangelical tool as well had we listened.
That's one reason why I think there are things that we can learn from even non-Christian sources and why the emergents aren't totally out to lunch on this.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/23/2008 7:28:23 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2863
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Beats thinking of hurting someone or killing them.
LOL - Paul paraphrased by mcleod: "Whatsoever things are good, whatsoever things are of good report, think on these things. It beats thinking about hurting people."
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/23/2008 7:43:42 PM
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mcleod
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 Gee GroupW I kind of liked you until you had my paraphrased up on the monitor. LoL mean Lots Of Laugh or something else? Like Lots Of Luck.
I believe Mr. King also notice it in the bible on how to change a person's attitude.
I remember billboards around the country at the time of those marches. With a picture of him in a meeting. Yet it was a lie to what the meeting was all about. It was at bottom of the picture it stated that he was at a communist party convention in the south.
To which he was really at a tent revival meeting. But to play on the scare of communism. They put him in the same boat of it. Which caused even more hatred towards the Blacks.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/23/2008 7:56:22 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2863
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Gee GroupW I kind of liked you until you had my paraphrased up on the monitor. LoL mean Lots Of Laugh or something else? Like Lots Of Luck.
Laughing out loud.
Sorry - I had to do it. It just seemed funny to me.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/23/2008 8:03:21 PM
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mcleod
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quote:
I answered your Satan question. Read it for yourself. If you find my statement to be false, then refute it or outright disagree with it. BTW, Sue made a clear post about that passage in post 639.
Okay so you say you answered me.
Sue wrote that what satan said was in her bold writing of the passages. Yet study it very carefully and you will notice that satan lied throught the whole spuel. He first said that God had lied that man would not die. Guess what as soon as they ate of the tree. they died. Spiritual, then eventual the old age problem. Second she has in bold words. you will be like God and know good from evil. This is a another lie he gave her and she took it hook line and sinker. First we will never ever be a god or even close to it. To be able to know what is evil is something I would like to know what heck went through her mind at that time.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/23/2008 8:15:49 PM
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crankius
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Mcleod, surely you can see the partial truths and partial lies in Satan's statements. He speaks partial truths, which when mixed with the partial lies, become complete lies.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/23/2008 8:22:52 PM
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mcleod
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quote:
MLK Jr. succeeded in changing the circumstances of African Americans. It is undeniable that African Americans have far more opportunities in this country than ever before. However, if you ask an African American, not much has really changed. They will tell you that they experience racism on a daily basis. Not only do they experience racism, but they engage in it themselves. The inability to forgive "white" society has led to an isolationalism - an unwillingness to participate in "white" society - that keeps many brewing and stewing in hatred and that keeps many stuck in a cycle of poverty, gangs, drug abuse, and crime. I heard on the news this morning that Al Sharpton is organizing election monitors because he expects that racism will be a factor in the upcoming presidential election (I know Sharpton isn't the best example for race relations, but his fears are echoed by many).
My point is that change - true change - has not really happened. Certainly, the circumstances have changed. Certainly, some - even many - have benefited from those changed circumstances - but the reality remains that both in India, and here in America, the only real change was in the circumstances. A change of heart that leads to true change and that brings us closer to God's ideal for human behavior has not taken hold. Why? Because people are still slaves to their sin natures. Circumstances have changed, but hearts have not. So, yes some have benefited, but even those that have benefited are still the victims of unchanged hearts; and the reality is that though the circumstances are different - even better in some ways - these people are still living under oppression - oppression that is both inflicted by others and self-inflicted.
Your pedophile example was intriguing. I've had the sad opportunity to help rescue a four year old girl from a pedophile. Sad, not because she was rescued, but sad because I was the one she told. The horror of her experience is beyond description. I don't think anyone is saying we shouldn't intervene in such situations. And yes, the intervention provides relief from the abuse and is undoubtedly a good thing to do. Yet, again, all that changes is the circumstances (which is good, but is not a cure). The girl is now eighteen and is still experiencing the consequences of her abuse, and her abuser did not stop abusing children (the girl was too young to testify in court, so the police chose not to prosecute).
Yes and the church sat back with it hands held high and ignored it. So all sudden when uncle sam gets involved in it and makes matters worse. So the so-called christian churches are to blame for the trash today.
quote:
Let me be clear, I don't claim to have the exact diagnosis of any social ill other than sin. Sin manifests itself in a myriad of ways, therefore describing how that sin manifests itself in social systems is a difficult and complex task at best. My point is that ultimately activism doesn't change the root cause of human behavior. As long as that root cause remains unchanged, humans will find new ways to commit the same old atrocities against one another. We call today's society "enlightened" yet we are experiencing the same problems and behaviors that man has been guilty of since soon after the beginning of time. We might consider our modern methods and justifications to be more sophisticated, but if you look past all the trimmings you will find that nothing has really changed.
One more time it is the churchs who have sinned. They to keep saying it was because of man sin. Yet they could not look past their own noses and see their faults.
As I have wrote many of times when my dad who had a heart for the lost. Went churchs in the area of Grand Rapids, MI.. Who prides it self on how many churchs are on one city block. When the leaders of those churchs were ask to set up programs to help get people jobs. They said no way it not our responcability to help them get a job. So we allow the goverment to do it, and we get a society which thinks of themselves more then we do of others.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/23/2008 11:12:00 PM
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colliefan
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I have been active in prison ministry for over 20 years and it saddens me to see the disporportianal number of AA in prison. Yes, the system is unjust but that fact alone cannot account for the rate.
One large factor is the dysfunctional family structure that seems epidemic in the poorer AA communities. Too many lack a solid father figure and have other dysfunctional roots.
In my womens prison ministry I try and allow time for the women to share what God is doing in their lives; one woman said that she had been doing crack since she was eight because her family thought it funny to see her stoned.
I know that just ministering to the women as the enter the system is placing a band-aid on a wound that requires surgery. I am placing the ground work for my church to minister to them when they walk out of the prison.
Many in my church own their own business, I want to place the ladies there even if it is just janitorial work. We have money management classes, I want to place them there so they learrn how to make and keep a budget. We have classes that teach skills on landing and keeping a job; I want to place them there so they know the dignity of work. We have a great womans program, I want to place them there so the know the value of a good female friend.
We have many professional counselors; I want them to see these individuals so they can continue to work on the emotional issues that lead them to prison. We have great children and youth programs. And finally I want to work my way out of a job so I can have a reformed ex-offender lead the program.
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[Deleted] - 9/24/2008 9:17:33 AM
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[Deleted] - 9/24/2008 9:23:03 AM
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[Deleted] - 9/24/2008 9:33:44 AM
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[Deleted] - 9/24/2008 9:37:38 AM
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[Deleted] - 9/24/2008 9:43:17 AM
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[Deleted] - 9/24/2008 9:48:09 AM
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[Deleted] - 9/24/2008 10:01:26 AM
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/24/2008 10:14:10 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 1068
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
I have been active in prison ministry for over 20 years and it saddens me to see the disporportianal number of AA in prison. Yes, the system is unjust but that fact alone cannot account for the rate.
One large factor is the dysfunctional family structure that seems epidemic in the poorer AA communities. Too many lack a solid father figure and have other dysfunctional roots.
In my womens prison ministry I try and allow time for the women to share what God is doing in their lives; one woman said that she had been doing crack since she was eight because her family thought it funny to see her stoned.
I know that just ministering to the women as the enter the system is placing a band-aid on a wound that requires surgery. I am placing the ground work for my church to minister to them when they walk out of the prison.
Many in my church own their own business, I want to place the ladies there even if it is just janitorial work. We have money management classes, I want to place them there so they learrn how to make and keep a budget. We have classes that teach skills on landing and keeping a job; I want to place them there so they know the dignity of work. We have a great womans program, I want to place them there so the know the value of a good female friend.
We have many professional counselors; I want them to see these individuals so they can continue to work on the emotional issues that lead them to prison. We have great children and youth programs. And finally I want to work my way out of a job so I can have a reformed ex-offender lead the program.
I want to write a comment for this post. Colliefan I glad to here those type of good things which are happening in your jounery in life. I am glad to hear that your church has some great things going for it. In which we could make a dent into this world for Jesus Christ our Lord and savior.
Just to let you know that when my dad was doing his ministry. That the church and it's attitude has change quite a bit since then. They seem to have a different spirit then back then and I praise God for those changes.
Is it perfect by no means because we are human. Yet if we could just change a person's heart. Then that one changes another person's heart. Guess what then we could live in peace with one another, with the help of God.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/24/2008 10:17:21 AM
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sue244
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
quote:
The Bible does teach us how to show love to our enemies, but not for the purpose of protesting their behavior.
Really?
Did you not read what I posted a few days back about Matt. 5? Jesus' teachings about turning the other cheek, giving your coat, and walking the extra mile are prime examples of non-violent protest against a dominating regime.
What is the point of loving our enemies and praying for them if it is not for the purpose of pointing out the evil that exists and creating space for repentance? Are you suggesting we just love our enemies because it is a "nice" thing to do? What is the point?
When God loved us so much that he died for us what is his love doing if it is not in some sense protesting against the evil that has us tragically bound?
Jesus was taking my punishment for my sins. That is why He died on the cross, so that I might have access to heaven though His shead blood.
(And there in lies the fundemental difference between how you view the cross and how most of the rest uf us view the cross)
It was not some Passive-Aggressive political point no matter how much the Jesus Semanar would like to make it as such.
It was the ultimate act of Love and Sacerfice all rolled up in one to pay the price for sin.
The point of Loving our enemeys is that God told us to, not to teach us to be Passive Agressive people, which by the way you would have a hard time advocating that being passive agressive is in any way loving.
_____________________________
"Indeed I Tremble for this country when I reflect that God is Just and His Justice cannot Sleep Forever"
Jefferson
"Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.” Churchill
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[Deleted] - 9/24/2008 10:24:07 AM
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/24/2008 10:39:05 AM
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sue244
Posts: 409
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From: Colorado
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quote:
The Jesus Seminar and emerging church are two very different things. I hope you can see that.
I know that but you have been on here advocating the very thing that the Jesus Seminar advocate.
quote:
Yes, God commands we love our enemies. But why? Does God command things without reason? Of course not. And this isn't about being passive/aggressive by any means. If the height of loving our enemies is to in part lay down our very life for another (as Jesus did) and if that love is for the purpose of bringing about repentance and redemption and you call that "passive aggressive" than I guess Jesus was passive aggressive.
God Loved us while we were His enemies, so why wouldn't He expect Christians to also love their enemies. We are God's ambassoders on earth to show forth His love. And by the way part of that love is saying things that will be offensive to people. It will be anouncing that if they don't repent and put their fiath in Jesus they will go to hell.
Well if its not about being passive/aggressive then you should not be advocateing what the Jesus Seminar teaches about turning the other cheek and what not. What they teach is very passive agrressive.
_____________________________
"Indeed I Tremble for this country when I reflect that God is Just and His Justice cannot Sleep Forever"
Jefferson
"Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.” Churchill
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[Deleted] - 9/24/2008 10:43:27 AM
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/24/2008 10:50:35 AM
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crankius
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
crankius-
you asked me to define atonement. I don't really think you want just a definition but want to know how it fits into the grand scheme of things, correct? What about the atonement do you want to discuss? Are you asking why it was necessary? What it accomplished? Who accomplished it? For whom it was accomplished?
peace.
Let me rephrase my question.
Can you explain the view of atonement most espoused by EC theology? If you have quotes by any EC teachers to support your views, that would also help the conversation, and help keep it on the topic of the Emergent Church.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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[Deleted] - 9/24/2008 11:01:17 AM
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/24/2008 11:06:18 AM
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jazzact13
Posts: 446
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
God bless you, jazz.
Keep your blessing, emerging.
quote:
Ghandi's writings on non-violent protest are extremely instructive. Laid next to the bible, I can clearly see how they serve biblical purposes.
The problem here, though, is that Ghandi was not Christian, and trying to use his writings to understand the Bible is questionable (it is not a new mistake, as some tried to do something similar with the ancient Greek philosophers).
quote:
Still, they offer me insights today that the bible doesn't do as powerfully on its own.
But what does that mean, though?
For example, does it mean that you don't get the same commitment to pacifism in the Bible that you do in Ghandi? But if that is so, perhaps Ghandi is not as right as may be originally thought.
quote:
I think it's absurd to say that there is nothing for me to learn by reading what he wrote.
Perhaps there is, but then, what is the Christian's standard? If you find things in Ghandi that are not in the Bible, then which is right?
_____________________________
there is no justice in the rhetoric of class hatred
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/24/2008 11:31:37 AM
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GroupW
Posts: 2863
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From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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I don't think I'm using Ghandi to interpret the bible. That's turning the world upside down, don't you think?
Still, if I find things in Ghandi that are consistent with what I see in the bible, why wouldn't I lend an ear to Ghandi? MLK did and with great effect.
Obviously, if I find things in Ghandi that are contrary to the bible I would reject Ghandi and focus on the bible. If Ghandi offers me a successful example of how to pursue social change, and those ideas aren't contradicted in the bible, why wouldn't you listen? I don't get that. It's excessively narrow.
Personally, I don't think I will ever find anything in any non-Christian source that I can't measure against biblical standards and reach a conclusion. The bible doesn't touch on every controversy that might ever arise, but it does lay out a decent set of principles from which to begin analyzing an issue.
If a non-Christian source gives me an idea, and I can take that idea and measure it against biblical principles to reach a conclusion, what's the issue? You do this everyday in your own life at work, at home, at play. Everyday we're confronted with issues from the world at large. We take those, measure them against the bible, and take appropriate action.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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