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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/14/2008 7:46:25 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 1068
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Jimbo;
Gee I thought I would give a answer like you have.
quote:
So, you think that God the Holy Spirit completely lost control of the redeemed everywhere from the time of the Apostle John's death until the time the emergents showed up to show us poor idiots the way back to the throne.
No I don't believe God has lost control of the redeemed.
But please take into account these words which were spoken;
The way of a fool seems right to him, but a wise man listens to advice.
A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a prudent man overlooks an insult.
I stand corrected in the words I used, but not the idea of not showing any humblness in our lives. Where I may listen to others for they may know something I don't.
For my Dad who wasn't emergent. For he died before they came on the scene. Would have been happy to see where there were people really concern to get humans to believe in God. And show people that the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. Really does love them and care for them. You see he was more interested in telling and showing the down and out, the love of God. Maybe thats why when he went to visit those whom he had lead to the Lord. Would be having in their home at the time he came unanounced, bible studies. But thats okay what do I know.
quote:
Sorry, I'm not sipping the emergent koolaid.
I really wouldn't want you to if you it's going to hurt you.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/14/2008 9:36:37 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 3002
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From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
?.. I had all the answers all the time. You must be talking about those emergents. Who,me... you know Lord I wasn't one of them.
The answers to the important questions are in the Bible. And there is a reason the bible leaves some questions unaswered. There is a reason some things remain a mystery. "We see through a mirrow dimly, but THEN.."
Yes, we are to take care of the down and out. We need to show the answers to society's problems are found in God's word and not the nanny state. The goal is not to leave them down and out but help them become a help to others.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/15/2008 11:05:51 AM
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Kat_D
Posts: 3041
Joined: 9/2/2005
From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Kat
quote:
I'm so tired of that argument...I worry about those who come up in the Emergent movement and don't know the difference between the baby in the bath water...how will they ever know which is which? Answer: They don't. They accept 100% of it as the baby!
Say what if you get the big 64,000.00 question from the great throne that you missed some of Jesus Christ's teachings about how to live your life. Are you going to be the type, who is very arrogant and say back to him? What did I miss?.. I had all the answers all the time. You must be talking about those emergents. Who,me... you know Lord I wasn't one of them.
See, that's where you've got me wrong. I absolutely don't believe I know everything...but, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that what I don't know I can find in God's Word and what I find there, I will follow to the best of my ability. God has said His Word is my authority here on earth, so why would He ever chasten me for following it.
In light of this, please tell me why I should ever want to get involved in a movement where Scripture is no longer the ultimate authority for my faith?
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/15/2008 11:13:03 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6364
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
quote:
Sorry, I'm not sipping the emergent koolaid.
I really wouldn't want you to if you it's going to hurt you.
Reference is to Jonestown, Guyana, November 18, 1978, when 909 Temple members died in Jonestown, all but two from apparent cyanide poisoning mostly administered in koolaid to a people willing to listen to "a new thing" because almost 2,000 years of teaching that began with the Apostles just wasn't good enough any more.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/15/2008 1:06:43 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 1068
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colliefan,
quote:
The answers to the important questions are in the Bible. And there is a reason the bible leaves some questions unaswered. There is a reason some things remain a mystery. "We see through a mirrow dimly, but THEN.."
Yes, we are to take care of the down and out. We need to show the answers to society's problems are found in God's word and not the nanny state. The goal is not to leave them down and out but help them become a help to others.
Thank you for that answer, I really apperciated very much.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/15/2008 1:10:14 PM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2478
Joined: 5/16/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Rick4Him
Hi All,
I just heard of an event that was held this week called the catalyst conference. Billy and Franklin Graham were supposed to have attended this Emergening event along with several Emerging leaders and the author of The Shack, I believe his name is William Young.
What in the world are Billy and Franklin doing?
Rick
Perhaps going to preach Truth. Don't be too quick on the trigger, sport.
_____________________________
love.ben
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/15/2008 1:11:47 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 1068
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kat,
quote:
In light of this, please tell me why I should ever want to get involved in a movement where Scripture is no longer the ultimate authority for my faith?
I don't understand that you say it is in the past with them. Mr bell will use the scriptures to back his thoughts on the issues he is presenting on the Sundays he is there.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/15/2008 1:15:22 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4493
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Mr. Bell does not elevate Scripture above human reasoning, human history, human tradition, and human experience. He looks at Scripture as inspired, but not without error.
Anyone who has read his writing understands that Bell has a low view of Scripture.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/15/2008 1:28:07 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 1068
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JimboFletch,
quote:
Reference is to Jonestown, Guyana, November 18, 1978, when 909 Temple members died in Jonestown, all but two from apparent cyanide poisoning mostly administered in koolaid to a people willing to listen to "a new thing" because almost 2,000 years of teaching that began with the Apostles just wasn't good enough any more.
Yes I knew what you were refering to. But again where is it that the people who say that they have it right. Seem to be let's see Constintine, who went around saying he saw a vision from god. Who told him to have people decide to accept Jesus Christ or be exspelled from life.
By the way according Solomon, there is nothing new under the sun.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/15/2008 1:30:37 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4493
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You are right there, mcleod. There is nothing new under the sun. False teachers just keep regurgitating the same bad theology.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/15/2008 1:36:38 PM
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Roberta_
Posts: 7421
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: East Bay Area
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Jimbo;
Gee I thought I would give a answer like you have.
quote:
So, you think that God the Holy Spirit completely lost control of the redeemed everywhere from the time of the Apostle John's death until the time the emergent showed up to show us poor idiots the way back to the throne.
No I don't believe God has lost control of the redeemed.
But please take into account these words which were spoken;
The way of a fool seems right to him, but a wise man listens to advice.
A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a prudent man overlooks an insult.
I stand corrected in the words I used, but not the idea of not showing any humbleness in our lives. Where I may listen to others for they may know something I don't.
For my Dad who wasn't emergent. For he died before they came on the scene. Would have been happy to see where there were people really concern to get humans to believe in God. And show people that the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. Really does love them and care for them. You see he was more interested in telling and showing the down and out, the love of God. Maybe that's why when he went to visit those whom he had lead to the Lord. Would be having in their home at the time he came unannounced, bible studies. But that's okay what do I know.
quote:
Sorry, I'm not sipping the emergent koolaid.
I really wouldn't want you to if you it's going to hurt you.
See, I'm not convinced that it is the God of the Bible the emergent are presenting.
_____________________________
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/15/2008 7:52:55 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 1068
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crankius,
quote:
Anyone who has read his writing understands that Bell has a low view of Scripture
Really, gee I sit under Rob's teaching and I don't get that. But that's right Fletch and you, have said I am stupid and you are very smart.
Did you not read the post I wrote about a fool?
Let me put it in this way; any CRC, RCA, GARBC, SBC, Pentecostal, SDA, Morman, Luther and Roman Catholic, you name the denomination. I can probable find fault in their teaching, or difference of opinion. You come across with the seat of mercy and I can't find where it has been taught different at Mars Hill Bible Church of Grandville, MI.. Just because you say they are false doesn't necessary mean it is so. I could say that the teacher you are sitting under is false too. Doesn't mean everything they say is false.
There is only one way to have eternal life and Rob at one time went into great detail how God the Father through his Son the Lord Jesus Christ accomplish that.
I don't know about Brian Mc laren for I have not heard or read his books. Nor Doug Pagitt for that matter.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/15/2008 7:56:08 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 1068
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Roberta,
quote:
See, I'm not convinced that it is the God of the Bible the emergent are presenting.
What Is the God of the bible presented as?
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/15/2008 8:34:43 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4493
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
crankius,
quote:
Anyone who has read his writing understands that Bell has a low view of Scripture
Really, gee I sit under Rob's teaching and I don't get that. But that's right Fletch and you, have said I am stupid and you are very smart.
Quote? Where did I say you are stupid and I am very smart?
quote:
Let me put it in this way; any CRC, RCA, GARBC, SBC, Pentecostal, SDA, Morman, Luther and Roman Catholic, you name the denomination. I can probable find fault in their teaching, or difference of opinion.
Mormonism is not a denomination. Mormonism is a false religion, a cult.
quote:
I could say that the teacher you are sitting under is false too. Doesn't mean everything they say is false.
If my pastor treated Scripture as sloppily as Bell does in Velvet Elvis, you can bet he would be removed from his position. An elder is to be able to rightly divide the Word. If he cannot, he is unqualified.
Have you read Velvet Elvis? Bell mistreats Scripture, and he regularly makes it into a historic text that is not absolute truth.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/15/2008 8:42:45 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4493
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
You come across with the seat of mercy and I can't find where it has been taught different at Mars Hill Bible Church of Grandville, MI..
If you have followed this thread before the emergent poster was deleted, then you saw his various attempts to ridicule the penal substitution view of atonement. The Mercy Seat clarifies that GOD holds to a penal substitution view of atonement.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/16/2008 11:11:40 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 1068
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Crankius,
quote:
Quote? Where did I say you are stupid and I am very smart?
Just look at what you write. You now for some odd reason have written that I can't read Rob's book very well.
quote:
Have you read Velvet Elvis? Bell mistreats Scripture, and he regularly makes it into a historic text that is not absolute truth.
Yes, Where does Rob mistreats the scriptures?
Thought it was for the most part has some historical books. Like Genesis, some of Exodus, Numbers,...so on and so forth as the books progress. They also tell you how you are to live your life before the Lord.
Tose histories lessons were put there for us to learn and not fall into those circumstances where humans messed up. Thereis also lesson in there for us to follow after certian people who made their life as a example in which for us to live.
By the way Rob does believe it to be true. Just because someone goes out searchs for the truth. Doesn't mean the left the creator of them behind.
Because the Discovery Channel came up a person whom he said he found where Jesus Christ was buried and remained there. Doesn't mean my faith went away. In fact it makes it stronger, in the fact people need to have the evil one to influence them to utterly nonsense.
As Paul wrote in 1Corinthians 15, my faith is on that the tomb was empty on the third day.He a rose victorious over death. That by having my faith put into him, I have recieved eternal life.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/16/2008 11:30:52 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 1068
Joined: 4/4/2006
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Crankous,
quote:
If you have followed this thread before the emergent poster was deleted, then you saw his various attempts to ridicule the penal substitution view of atonement. The Mercy Seat clarifies that GOD holds to a penal substitution view of atonement.
Yes you are right God could have keep his word and had Adam and Eve see their death sentence at the time of the crime. But the Almighty showed compassion to them. For he took a animal shed it's blood and showed them what it took to have a peace offering to him. Again he shows numerous times throught history where has shown us his loving and caring nature also.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/16/2008 12:04:32 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4493
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Crankius,
quote:
Quote? Where did I say you are stupid and I am very smart?
Just look at what you write. You now for some odd reason have written that I can't read Rob's book very well.
Mcleod,
I have NEVER stated that you are stupid, and I have NEVER stated that I am very smart.
I have NEVER stated that you personally "can't read Rob's book very well."
Please stop with the false personal accusations. It takes us away from the topic of EC theology.
It is a fact that Rob has what is considered a low view of Scripture--he does not hold to a sola scriptura view.
We have an entire Rob Bell thread where I posted numerous problems I found with how Rob treats Scripture. I can link to those posts if you want me to.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/16/2008 12:12:34 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4493
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Crankous,
quote:
If you have followed this thread before the emergent poster was deleted, then you saw his various attempts to ridicule the penal substitution view of atonement. The Mercy Seat clarifies that GOD holds to a penal substitution view of atonement.
Yes you are right God could have keep his word and had Adam and Eve see their death sentence at the time of the crime. But the Almighty showed compassion to them. For he took a animal shed it's blood and showed them what it took to have a peace offering to him. Again he shows numerous times throught history where has shown us his loving and caring nature also.
Mcleod,
We can't take away the fact that God has wrath for sin. Those who do not have Jesus as their atonement sacrifice for sin still have God's wrath upon them. It's not just love and compassion God has for man--God also has wrath because He is Righteous and Just. He demands payment for sin.
John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
We have much to be grateful for, and the more we fully comprehend exactly what Christ did for us on the cross, the more awe and love we feel for our great God.
Emergent writers and thinkers don't like to think that God has wrath.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/16/2008 4:16:58 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 1068
Joined: 4/4/2006
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Crankous,
quote:
I have NEVER stated that you are stupid, and I have NEVER stated that I am very smart.
You may have not done that, to that I will apologies.
quote:
I have NEVER stated that you personally "can't read Rob's book very well."
You said this to one of my statements.
quote:
If my pastor treated Scripture as sloppily as Bell does in Velvet Elvis, you can bet he would be removed from his position. An elder is to be able to rightly divide the Word. If he cannot, he is unqualified.
Have you read Velvet Elvis? Bell mistreats Scripture, and he regularly makes it into a historic text that is not absolute truth.
If I read that right you just said that I can't read the book he wrote very good. Which I have a problem with that last part where you wrote;" into a historical text that is not absolute truth".
quote:
It is a fact that Rob has what is considered a low view of Scripture--he does not hold to a sola scriptura view.
You show me where he has written that or said it please. That he has low view of scripture.
quote:
We can't take away the fact that God has wrath for sin. Those who do not have Jesus as their atonement sacrifice for sin still have God's wrath upon them. It's not just love and compassion God has for man--God also has wrath because He is Righteous and Just. He demands payment for sin.
John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
Really, no kidding yet you were quoting from where John as he was talking to his disciples. This doesn't make his words less. But the one who was to become bigger as he became smaller said in the previous words like this;John 3:16-21 Which starts out "For God so loved the world.... For God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world..... Whoever believes in him is not condemn, but whoever does not believe stands already condemned because he has not believed in the God's one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. ...But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.
You make mention about God and his wrath.
quote:
Emergent writers and thinkers don't like to think that God has wrath.
Yet what type of picture do you get with the story that the Son gave about. A lost son(Luke 15:31) you went and asked his dad for his share of the estate. Which his son left the building and end up in a big mess. Please look at the verse 20 in that passsage. " So he went got up and went to his father house. " But while he was still long way off, his father saw him and had compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him".
This doesn't appear to have a lot of anger issues as you would like for God to have. Or does it?
For some odd reason when I go and throw my arms around someone, give them a kiss. Pretty hard to remain mad at them.
One question for you Crankous to consider.
Do you go up someone and tell how much God is mad at them? Or do you tell them of a God who loves and cares for them. That they need ask for his forgiveness and to just believe by putting their trust in him to guide them in their life jouneries.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/16/2008 4:29:41 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6364
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
Yet what type of picture do you get with the story that the Son gave about. A lost son(Luke 15:31) you went and asked his dad for his share of the estate. Which his son left the building and end up in a big mess. Please look at the verse 20 in that passsage. " So he went got up and went to his father house. " But while he was still long way off, his father saw him and had compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him".
Hiya, Mc. Did you notice what you wrote about? A son and a father. That father, of course is God. That son is just that, a member of the family. Had a hired hand or slave gone to him and asked for a cut of the inheritance the father would have, at best, laughed at them. But he would NOT have given them anything and if they had left, his reception would not have anything like the son's return - because they weren't family. And if a stranger or an enemy had come to the house asking for a piece of the inheritance, things would have been worse for them yet.
The story of the prodigal son has a wealth of information but it does not apply equally to every person. Only to heirs - redeemed, blood bought, born again, joint heirs with Christ.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/16/2008 5:13:27 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4493
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
You said this to one of my statements.
Where?
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/16/2008 5:16:32 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4493
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
If I read that right you just said that I can't read the book he wrote very good. Which I have a problem with that last part where you wrote;" into a historical text that is not absolute truth".
Let me quote what I stated:
quote:
If my pastor treated Scripture as sloppily as Bell does in Velvet Elvis, you can bet he would be removed from his position. An elder is to be able to rightly divide the Word. If he cannot, he is unqualified.
Have you read Velvet Elvis? Bell mistreats Scripture, and he regularly makes it into a historic text that is not absolute truth.
I ask you if you have read Velvet Elvis. It is a question. I did not know if you had read it or not.
In my opinion, Bell "mistreats Scripture, and he regularly makes it into a historic text that is not absolute truth."
Nothing in that insults you.
Edit to add:
quote:
quote:
It is a fact that Rob has what is considered a low view of Scripture--he does not hold to a sola scriptura view.
You show me where he has written that or said it please. That he has low view of scripture.
He does not hold to a sola scriptura view, and it is evident throughout the book Velvet Elvis, but here are some quotes:
“The writers of the Bible had agendas.” (p. 66)
“This is part of the problem with continually insisting that one of the absolutes of the Christian faith must be a belief that ‘Scripture alone’ is our guide. It sounds nice, but it is not true.” (p. 67)
< Message edited by crankius -- 10/16/2008 6:12:16 PM >
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/16/2008 5:24:31 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4493
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
quote:
We can't take away the fact that God has wrath for sin. Those who do not have Jesus as their atonement sacrifice for sin still have God's wrath upon them. It's not just love and compassion God has for man--God also has wrath because He is Righteous and Just. He demands payment for sin.
John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
Really, no kidding yet you were quoting from where John as he was talking to his disciples. This doesn't make his words less. But the one who was to become bigger as he became smaller said in the previous words like this;John 3:16-21 Which starts out "For God so loved the world.... For God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world..... Whoever believes in him is not condemn, but whoever does not believe stands already condemned because he has not believed in the God's one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. ...But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.
I fail to see how any of what you have posted is inconsistent with God's wrath for sin: John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
quote:
You make mention about God and his wrath.
quote:
Emergent writers and thinkers don't like to think that God has wrath.
Yet what type of picture do you get with the story that the Son gave about. A lost son(Luke 15:31) you went and asked his dad for his share of the estate. Which his son left the building and end up in a big mess. Please look at the verse 20 in that passsage. " So he went got up and went to his father house. " But while he was still long way off, his father saw him and had compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him".
This doesn't appear to have a lot of anger issues as you would like for God to have. Or does it?
For some odd reason when I go and throw my arms around someone, give them a kiss. Pretty hard to remain mad at them.
One question for you Crankous to consider.
Do you go up someone and tell how much God is mad at them? Or do you tell them of a God who loves and cares for them. That they need ask for his forgiveness and to just believe by putting their trust in him to guide them in their life jouneries.
There is no wrath for sin upon a son, because He is a co-heir with Christ, bought and redeemed, and atoned for.
If the person were NOT a son, not a co-heir with Christ, not bought and redeemed and atoned for, there would be wrath.
John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
Consider the Passover. What determined which children would live and which children would die? The blood of the pure lamb. If the blood was there, the children lived. If the blood was absent, there was death. The passover is a picture of Christ--His blood atones and marks believers. Our sins are paid for. Propitiation has been made.
1Co 5:7b - For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.
< Message edited by crankius -- 10/16/2008 5:38:41 PM >
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Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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No, I don't do that. Not at all. But when I am presenting the Gospel message, I try to present the solid seed, the Word just as it is, so that God can give the growth where He wills. If I change the Word to make it more suitable, to make the seed more palatable, I'm afraid it won't be the pure seed.