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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/16/2008 10:29:15 PM
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Roberta_
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Roberta,
quote:
See, I'm not convinced that it is the God of the Bible the emergent are presenting.
What Is the God of the bible presented as?
The ECM doesn't promote God as sovereign.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/17/2008 7:56:13 AM
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facedown
Posts: 829
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crankius
quote:
There is no wrath for sin upon a son, because He is a co-heir with Christ, bought and redeemed, and atoned for.
If the person were NOT a son, not a co-heir with Christ, not bought and redeemed and atoned for, there would be wrath.
greetings.
i'm not certain i dig this, and here's why: it kind of assumes a lot, and it wholly disregards quite the hunk of scripture.
just the narrative of the old testament speaks of this: creation - fall - exodus - sinai - jerusalem - failing - exodus - return - captivity
and then the new testament readings come in - folks who believed themselves to be 'in', 'saved', 'loved by god' (etc) found themselves being sternly corrected and to find peace with god (both in gospel accounts as well as afterwards).
maybe you and i are just looking at this from two different angles.
pax
jimbo
quote:
That father, of course is God. That son is just that, a member of the family. Had a hired hand or slave gone to him and asked for a cut of the inheritance the father would have, at best, laughed at them. But he would NOT have given them anything and if they had left, his reception would not have anything like the son's return - because they weren't family. And if a stranger or an enemy had come to the house asking for a piece of the inheritance, things would have been worse for them yet.
The story of the prodigal son has a wealth of information but it does not apply equally to every person. Only to heirs - redeemed, blood bought, born again, joint heirs with Christ.
i'm not so certain. it seems that if we take the story of scripture as mentioned above, we see that god hears the cry of the oppressed - the slave - the outsider - the shipwrecked - the broken - *gasp* - even those considered as "strangers" and "enemies" - and not only are the cries heard, but there is a redemptive response.
and there are tons of stories about the opposite happening to folks who considered themselves part of the 'family'.
pax
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/17/2008 8:07:33 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: facedown
jimbo
quote:
That father, of course is God. That son is just that, a member of the family. Had a hired hand or slave gone to him and asked for a cut of the inheritance the father would have, at best, laughed at them. But he would NOT have given them anything and if they had left, his reception would not have anything like the son's return - because they weren't family. And if a stranger or an enemy had come to the house asking for a piece of the inheritance, things would have been worse for them yet.
The story of the prodigal son has a wealth of information but it does not apply equally to every person. Only to heirs - redeemed, blood bought, born again, joint heirs with Christ.
i'm not so certain. it seems that if we take the story of scripture as mentioned above, we see that god hears the cry of the oppressed - the slave - the outsider - the shipwrecked - the broken - *gasp* - even those considered as "strangers" and "enemies" - and not only are the cries heard, but there is a redemptive response.
and there are tons of stories about the opposite happening to folks who considered themselves part of the 'family'.
pax
Don't fret your little head guessing because I am certain about what I wrote.
The parable of the prodigal son is entirely about a blood-bought, born again, joint-heir with Christ that has foolishly strayed then returns in broken humility and repentance to a loving father.
Here is the KEY PART, take notes if you need to: He was a son when he left, he was a son while in the foreign country, and he was a son when he came back home.
Neither the lost and unredeemed nor the phonies and hypocrites have anything whatsoever to do with the story of the loving father and wayward & returning son. You have to look elsewhere to find that information.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/17/2008 11:37:19 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 1068
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Jimbo,
quote:
Hiya, Mc. Did you notice what you wrote about? A son and a father. That father, of course is God. That son is just that, a member of the family. Had a hired hand or slave gone to him and asked for a cut of the inheritance the father would have, at best, laughed at them. But he would NOT have given them anything and if they had left, his reception would not have anything like the son's return - because they weren't family. And if a stranger or an enemy had come to the house asking for a piece of the inheritance, things would have been worse for them yet.
The story of the prodigal son has a wealth of information but it does not apply equally to every person. Only to heirs - redeemed, blood bought, born again, joint heirs with Christ.
Gee And I thought the Son died for the whole world.
Let's look at a scriptures where it states; "If we are out of our mind, it is the sake of God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. For Christ 's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.
Doesn't mean that everyone accepts that way of life. But he died for everyone. Which leaves the ball in our court in how we handle it.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/17/2008 11:50:11 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Gee And I thought the Son died for the whole world.
That's cool, Mc, but that has nary a thang to do with the Prodigal Son. That death has no application until one believes, repents, receives, and is born again into the Kingdom and becomes a joint-heir with Christ, i.e. a son.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/17/2008 12:06:16 PM
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mcleod
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I thought as I was growing up in a Baptist church and very conservative at that. Would say God loves the person but hates the sin.
quote:
but the wrath of God abides on him.
The wrath of God that abides on him is the person's SIN of disbelief.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/17/2008 12:10:52 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
The wrath of God that abides on him is the person's SIN of disbelief.
Disbelief of what?
And can God punish - or discipline - a sin without affecting the person? That'd be a little like trying to put a person's crime in prison without incarcerating the person.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/17/2008 12:13:59 PM
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crankius
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
I thought as I was growing up in a Baptist church and very conservative at that. Would say God loves the person but hates the sin.
quote:
but the wrath of God abides on him.
The wrath of God that abides on him is the person's SIN of disbelief.
You can try reading it that way, but it doesn't work-
John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
We have to be careful about changing the text to fit what we want it to mean.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/17/2008 12:37:55 PM
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crankius
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This wrath is God's righteous judgment upon sin.
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
Romans 2:5 2:5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
Romans 5:9 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
Eph 5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
Col 3:5-7 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.
The only way to not have God's wrath for sin upon us is to believe in Jesus.
1 Thes 1:10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.
The term for this is Propitiation. Christ took the wrath we deserved.
Hebrews 2:17-18 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.
1 John 4:9-10 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/17/2008 12:49:24 PM
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crankius
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Mcleod,
I'm just wondering--has Rob Bell preached about God's wrath for sin while you've been attending his church?
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/17/2008 1:19:41 PM
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facedown
Posts: 829
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jimbo
while i wholly recognize that the passage in question is what it is, it seems that it was trying to applied beyond just the scope of the passage - hence my post to you, thus while 'they' may have nothing to do with "this" story, they certainly have a part in "the" story.
crankius
i'm not cetain we can simply take such a look. we are talking about folks who - living in what they perceived was in the wake of abraham, isaac, and jacob, following god. that they had received what the prophets had said, that they were the ones.
so while yes, we understand them to be off on quite a bit, it's more than simply "those who rejected christ". the failure goes back centuries, and is seen as quite the cycle as illustrated earlier. thus, it seems if we are to truly understand the message of jesus, it helps to be a student of the scriptures in their entirety.
"there's just no getting around the fact that god has wrath for sin"
while you and i may use some different language, it seems it's bigger to look at the larger picture here
gotta run....chat later
_____________________________
-| you are the ones who justify yourselves |-
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/17/2008 2:59:24 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6364
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quote:
ORIGINAL: facedown
jimbo
while i wholly recognize that the passage in question is what it is, it seems that it was trying to applied beyond just the scope of the passage - hence my post to you, thus while 'they' may have nothing to do with "this" story, they certainly have a part in "the" story.
According to scripture, the only prayer that the lost can be assured that God here's is the one that begs mercy by grace through faith (it is the gift of God).
We may WANT the parable of the prodigal son to apply to others, but it only applies to the redeemed.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/17/2008 3:03:50 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 1068
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Roberta,
quote:
The ECM doesn't promote God as sovereign.
What evidence do you have for that statement?
I could write that about anyone, yet I don't prove it with evidence then I can become a liar.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/17/2008 3:13:35 PM
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JimboFletch
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From one of many sources:
There are also many ECM pastors, such as “emerging” leaders Brian McLaren and Doug Pagitt, who seem to question God’s sovereignty and very openly downplay biblical truths such as Hell and salvation through death on the cross. Scary.
LINK
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/17/2008 3:22:05 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 1068
Joined: 4/4/2006
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Jimbo,
quote:
The parable of the prodigal son is entirely about a blood-bought, born again, joint-heir with Christ that has foolishly strayed then returns in broken humility and repentance to a loving father.
Here is the KEY PART, take notes if you need to: He was a son when he left, he was a son while in the foreign country, and he was a son when he came back home.
Neither the lost and unredeemed nor the phonies and hypocrites have anything whatsoever to do with the story of the loving father and wayward & returning son. You have to look elsewhere to find that information.
I know that he was talking to Israel his chosen people. But here is what that encounters is that Israel like the rest of mankind has left the Creator of it all. For foolish things in life. Where in the world does it say in that this only to my followers?
Here's a key part:
On one occasion an expert of the law (rabbi) stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher" he asked," what must I do to have eternal life?" "What is written in the Law". he replied" How do you read it?" He answered Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with your strength and with all your mind and love your neighbor as yourself". "You have answered correctly", Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live".
What fasinates me on this he didn't mention that you missed. You should know that the Messiah has to suffer for your sins. Then when that blood is poured then you may have eternal life.
I know God's wrath is on sin. But to a person until they breath their last breath he is a Father with his arms wide open for anyone to come.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/17/2008 3:32:25 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
...last breath he is a Father with his arms wide open for anyone to come.
That's not scriptural. It sounds pretty, but it's not scriptural. Just like the notion that we're all God's children. Not so, only the redeemed are His children and only to the redeemed is He Father.
I know you want to buy the world a Coke and live in perfect harmony, but the world is at odds with God and His ways. The Bible says so.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/17/2008 3:34:52 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 1068
Joined: 4/4/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Jimbo,
quote:
Hiya, Mc. Did you notice what you wrote about? A son and a father. That father, of course is God. That son is just that, a member of the family. Had a hired hand or slave gone to him and asked for a cut of the inheritance the father would have, at best, laughed at them. But he would NOT have given them anything and if they had left, his reception would not have anything like the son's return - because they weren't family. And if a stranger or an enemy had come to the house asking for a piece of the inheritance, things would have been worse for them yet.
The story of the prodigal son has a wealth of information but it does not apply equally to every person. Only to heirs - redeemed, blood bought, born again, joint heirs with Christ.
Gee And I thought the Son died for the whole world.
Let's look at a scriptures where it states; "If we are out of our mind, it is the sake of God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. For Christ 's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.
Doesn't mean that everyone accepts that way of life. But he died for everyone. Which leaves the ball in our court in how we handle it.
quote:
Those who rejected Christ in favor of their twisted lofty religious teachings were harshly rebuked.
For some odd reason the scripture I put up didn't show up.
We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but giving you an opportunity to take pride in us so that you can answer those who take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart. If we are out of our mind, it is for the sake of God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that the one died for all and therefore all died. 2 Corinthian 5:12-14
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/17/2008 3:39:20 PM
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mcleod
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Jimbo back this up with scripture please;
quote:
That's not scriptural. It sounds pretty, but it's not scriptural. Just like the notion that we're all God's children. Not so, only the redeemed are His children and only to the redeemed is He Father.
I know you want to buy the world a Coke and live in perfect harmony, but the world is at odds with God and His ways. The Bible says so.
By the way you just took part of my responce.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/17/2008 3:51:12 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 1068
Joined: 4/4/2006
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Crankous,
quote:
I'm just wondering--has Rob Bell preached about God's wrath for sin while you've been attending his church?
To that I can say he has done that.
But as I have tried many times you need to look at the whole picture. Which is in the Bible. In the garden after all the mayhem in what those two charactors did. God was already at work showing his love and compassion. For one thing sacrificing the animal for their sin. Another telling them this; " Cursed are you above all the livestock and all the wild animals! You will crawl on your belly all the days of your life. I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers he will crush your head and you will strike his heel.
One thing you guys keep bring up the redeemed of the Lord. But how are you to get there without his love to begin with? Bo.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/17/2008 3:57:32 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6364
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Jimbo back this up with scripture please;
quote:
That's not scriptural. It sounds pretty, but it's not scriptural. Just like the notion that we're all God's children. Not so, only the redeemed are His children and only to the redeemed is He Father.
I know you want to buy the world a Coke and live in perfect harmony, but the world is at odds with God and His ways. The Bible says so.
Here's a starting point:
Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
-James 4:4
quote:
By the way you just took part of my responce.
I only pasted enough to let you see what I wanted to respond to. All of the original is there for anyone to see. No harm, no foul.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/17/2008 4:00:16 PM
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My_Redeemer_Lives08
Posts: 69
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It's remarkable that there is always one person, that always seems to know more than someone else, and every where this person goes, there is a DEBATE. Just remarkable. No credit ever given to anyone else.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/17/2008 4:03:30 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 1068
Joined: 4/4/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
From one of many sources:
There are also many ECM pastors, such as “emerging” leaders Brian McLaren and Doug Pagitt, who seem to question God’s sovereignty and very openly downplay biblical truths such as Hell and salvation through death on the cross. Scary.
LINK
For one thing there is not and I mean not one piece of evidence in that link. The person of the article uses nothing to back up his claims. Let's go to any trial with that type of writing. And I would have to say that even a kangroo court would throw it out.
One more time give me evidence to what you are writing about. Seeing not to get on Mr. Crankous, but he is Mr. show the facts. Which I like in him. But this is a two way street. If it is required from us then it also goes for you.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/17/2008 4:11:26 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 1068
Joined: 4/4/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
This wrath is God's righteous judgment upon sin.
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
Romans 2:5 2:5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
Romans 5:9 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
Eph 5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
Col 3:5-7 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.
The only way to not have God's wrath for sin upon us is to believe in Jesus.
1 Thes 1:10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.
The term for this is Propitiation. Christ took the wrath we deserved.
Hebrews 2:17-18 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.
1 John 4:9-10 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Crankous, Have no problem with the wrath thing. But notice it is a sin issue until they have breathed their last breath. Then they can have all the heat they can afford.
Just as Israel in the stories in the Old testament. Where they sinned and had the hand of God lifted off from them. And low and behold some neighboring nation would slap them up side their head. Was it God? No! It was that God's love had left them and they took the heat for it.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/17/2008 4:13:07 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6364
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
From one of many sources:
There are also many ECM pastors, such as “emerging” leaders Brian McLaren and Doug Pagitt, who seem to question God’s sovereignty and very openly downplay biblical truths such as Hell and salvation through death on the cross. Scary.
LINK
For one thing there is not and I mean not one piece of evidence in that link. The person of the article uses nothing to back up his claims. Let's go to any trial with that type of writing. And I would have to say that even a kangroo court would throw it out.
One more time give me evidence to what you are writing about. Seeing not to get on Mr. Crankous, but he is Mr. show the facts. Which I like in him. But this is a two way street. If it is required from us then it also goes for you.
Would you prefer I give a link to all 4810 links I found? Here ya go: LINK
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