RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. (Full Version)

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mushhead -> RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. (5/29/2008 9:27:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: preachermyron

The Church needs to be extremely careful about criticism of the recent things of the Holy Spirit taking place. God desires a kingdom culture and not a church culture. There is a shift taking place that is moving His Church away from the old and tired status quo and into the realm of a higher and deeper relationship with God. This calls for us to change which even believes are hesitant to admit to and will not do. Many believers are being suspicious and critical because it is something that is a new and strange and moves us away from the old ways that have hindered the Church. We the Church must remember that although the very essence that is God is immutable His methods change to fit what He is trying to do and accomplish. Church remember that His ways and thoughts are not our ways and thoughts. That's because His ways and thoughts transend our ways and thoughts and are higher then our ways and thoughts. Church we must cease from keeping God in a box. Myron. preachermyron@yahoo.com

Ditto, soujerner9!

preachermyron,
The problem is that the EC is attempting to change the very nature and meaning of God's revelation. Read my first post that cites the emergent view that other (pagan) religions also contain the truth of God and are means of experiencing God's grace. Read how they believe that grace comes through sources other than the person of Jesus. Notice how they believe that a relationship with the person of Jesus is not the only way to a relationship with God. These are serious matters.

I agree that we must be open to God doing new things, but we can never entertain that these new things will contradict the explicit teachings of Scripture.



Roberta_ -> RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. (5/30/2008 2:20:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: preachermyron

Roberta - If you think that repentance is no longer necessary you're in big trouble. What may I ask do you do with verses such as "All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God"? Or how about Jesus ( not just Christians) saying "Most assuredly I tell you that unless you are born again you can't see the kingdom of God? There is also "There are none who do good, no not one"? Also, "Our righteousness is as filthy rags"? How about "repent or likewise perish? This message includes the Church. Have you repented of your sins, asked Jesus to forgive you and made Jesus your Lord, God, and Savior? You can't enter into God's kingdom as a religious church going person of a denomination, or because you do good works (Ephesians 2:8,9 also Titus 3:5) or because you think that you're a good person. Only by the cross and blood of Jesus Christ (Hebrews 9:22). The Bible is not a old and useless book. There is more sin now than when Jesus and His followers walked the earth. Also, since the Bible was written and published. Also see John 3:3-and 16,17). Myron. preachermyron@yahoo.com


I think repentance is very much necessary. However, many of the ECMs don't even talk about it. It doesn't "feel good" to repent according to them.

I think repentance frees a person in a way.



preachermyron -> RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. (5/31/2008 10:50:15 PM)

What do you do with Isaiah 43:19 : " Behold, I will do a new thing, now it shall spring forth,Shall you not know it"? God built a new nation out of their suffering just like He desires and just as He wishes to do with the twenty first century church. God wants us to move forward in what He has for us and not look back as Lot's wife who became a useless pillar of salt. Myron. preachermyron@yahoo.com



Roberta_ -> RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. (5/31/2008 10:54:20 PM)

I have no problem with the church "moving forward" or changing, just as long as they don't forget to take the Truth with them.



earthless -> RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. (5/31/2008 11:00:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: preachermyron

What do you do with Isaiah 43:19 : " Behold, I will do a new thing, now it shall spring forth,Shall you not know it"? God built a new nation out of their suffering just like He desires and just as He wishes to do with the twenty first century church. God wants us to move forward in what He has for us and not look back as Lot's wife who became a useless pillar of salt. Myron. preachermyron@yahoo.com


Everything is to be tested in light of Scripture - we're not wanderers without God's Word/standard.



preachermyron -> RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. (5/31/2008 11:06:43 PM)

Roberta - True faith means that you believe in what God says even when there is no results immediately showing. It is not about our feelings . The world says "Seeing is believeing". A Christian by faith and the Holy Spirit believes before they see results. We believers trust God and not signs because we know that men can lie but God can never lie ( Psalm 116:11, Romans 3:4 ). Myron. preachermyron@yahoo.com



preachermyron -> RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. (5/31/2008 11:17:14 PM)

Earthless and Roberta - Absolutely right that we must rightly divide the truth by Scripture. But, do you think that the devil is just sitting around? The Church must stop getting the blessed assurance and throwing it in a can and sitting on their rewards while the devil has free reign to kill and destroy souls in order to keep filling up Hell. The fields are white and ready for harvest. Myron. preachermyron@yahoo.com



Roberta_ -> RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. (5/31/2008 11:18:30 PM)

I believe very firmly in what God's Word says. Unfortunately, I'm not hearing much of that in ECM.



JesKlu -> RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. (6/2/2008 2:26:42 PM)

Hey everyone.

Here is a Lutheran Apologetics website that talks about the very nature of the Emergent Church Movement, they also talk about the Church Growth Movement and stuff like that.

http://www.soundwitness.org/evangel/index.html

Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica



jazzact13 -> RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. (6/4/2008 11:38:45 AM)

quote:

The Church needs to be extremely careful about criticism of the recent things of the Holy Spirit taking place.


Yet every time some supposed "move of God" results in people barking down aisles, being defrauded by fake healers, and the spreading of bad theology, they rely on such a "Don't judge us!!" statement.

I would say, rather, that we need to be extremely careful about accepting these things as being really from the Holy Spirit.

quote:

There is a shift taking place that is moving His Church away from the old and tired status quo and into the realm of a higher and deeper relationship with God.


I would expect that sort of rhetoric, in fact I think I've even heard or read it, from the false faith healers and 'miracle' workers of the past few years.

It seems like every whacky practice or false teachings tries to sell itself as a means to something like a "higher and deeper relationship with God", getting into the supposed "deep things of God", or some such thing.

quote:

Many believers are being suspicious and critical because it is something that is a new and strange and moves us away from the old ways that have hindered the Church.


Another common tactic. Demean those who disagree with the movement, label them, and say that they are something like "old fuddie-duddies" who are only hindrances.

quote:

We the Church must remember that although the very essence that is God is immutable His methods change to fit what He is trying to do and accomplish.


Another rhetorical device--"Who are you to say what God can and cannot do???" There is a certain middlingly-popular emergent person who on a video asked a pastor "Why must God punish people?" By that type of thinking, why must God keep his promises, why must God not punish anyone, or perhaps more such questions.

quote:

Church we must cease from keeping God in a box


I know nothing about what you preach, myron, but what you're saying here could have come from some kind of "How to start up your own religious cult and fake faith healing ministry for dummies" book. You're not answering any concerns with that kind of response, you're only telling people to shut up. Many of us have legitimate question and concerns, and frankly some of these emergents say and write things that are simply off-the-wall.



Roberta_ -> RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. (6/4/2008 12:44:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jazzact13
I know nothing about what you preach, myron, but what you're saying here could have come from some kind of "How to start up your own religious cult and fake faith healing ministry for dummies" book. You're not answering any concerns with that kind of response, you're only telling people to shut up. Many of us have legitimate question and concerns, and frankly some of these emergents say and write things that are simply off-the-wall.


I agree!



hellohellohi -> RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. (6/5/2008 3:36:33 PM)

I'm only passingly aware of what this thread is about, but...

It sounds like the emerging church is on the wrong side of (what some would call) a fine line between "speaking somebody's language" and not telling the truth.

There is something to be said for coming into a culture with which one does not identify (even if it is in one's homeland) and figuring out what they care about so that dialogue can be started. It IS analagous to going to another country and first learning their language and figuring out a TRANSLATION of the Bible. How do we know how accurately the Bible has been translated into uh, [insert obscure language here]? The inerrancy of the Bible is reliant on the inerrancy of the translator! I'm not saying translations are therefore rife with error...

BECAUSE, on the other hand, the concepts of sin; father and son; truth and a lie; forgiveness and reconciliation are surely universal and easily intelligible to any HUMAN BEING, regardless of language.

Postmodernism may have some good points about treating everything as a text and encouraging "close reading" in all things, but its dismissal of the universal is, well, silly.

However, this topic is interesting to me because I feel like I was helped (by the Holy Spirit, of course) while I was reading and considering ideas that are the progenitors of postmodernism, the existenalists.

What I have taken away from my experience is that the best way to evangelize may not always be the breathless "WillyouaccepttodayJesusChristasyourLordandSaviour!?" (even though, it might be good too!!) but that one can spend time letting others talk and listen to what they have to say to find that perhaps they do have a kind of relationship with Jesus, though they don't yet know how to articulate it and have plenty of rebelliousness, etc. I am NOT saying that there are OTHER paths to Jesus, as if "the way of Jesus" is not the "narrow way" that He said but rather a road more-or-less travelled by all religions. Simply that it should be obvious that the Holy Spirit could be reaching for anyone before WE as evangelists struck up a conversation.

Thus, I really don't believe it there is "a fine line" between truth and untruth (either something is a lie or it isn't). It can just vaguely sound like it when one, like me, is not dead-set on a METHOD. The Holy Spirit --I think someone was saying in a post -- is the method, of course. Not ONLY for the OTHER, so to speak, but for us, I mean the one in the role of evangelist.

That's my two cents!

Thanks



Roberta_ -> RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. (6/16/2008 12:30:07 AM)

hmmm..... the pastor at one of the ECMs referred to Jesus as "dude" at Bible study the other night. [&o]



1love1God1way -> RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. (6/16/2008 12:50:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DenimDiva

hmmm..... the pastor at one of the ECMs referred to Jesus as "dude" at Bible study the other night. [&o]


I am pretty sure in some of my prayers, I have used the word "dude."



Roberta_ -> RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. (6/16/2008 12:56:26 AM)

Perhaps, but would you do it if you were praying during your Bible Study meeting?



Peter_Gunn -> RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. (6/16/2008 9:50:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way

quote:

ORIGINAL: DenimDiva

hmmm..... the pastor at one of the ECMs referred to Jesus as "dude" at Bible study the other night. [&o]


I am pretty sure in some of my prayers, I have used the word "dude."


Do you know the definition of the word "dude"? I mean, have you actually looked it up in a dictionary? Not a new one where they've changed the definitions to match "society" but one from several years ago that society used to use to learn how to speak properly.

(An aside: dictionaries have become like the Bible these days. We twist them to match our own standards rather than recognizing them as the standard to which we must match our own.)

This is from my 1980 version of Webster...dude: a man too much concerned with his clothes and appearance; dandy; fop.

If you have a dictionary, I'll let you look up the words dandy and fop. Suffice it to say, when I'm referred to as "dude" I want to punch the person! It's an insult and a terrible thing to call our Lord and Savior, the Lord and King of the Hosts...you should look that one up.

In my opinion, there is nothing that shows a person's ignorance more sufficiently than their usage of the word "dude".



hellohellohi -> RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. (6/16/2008 10:16:03 AM)

Language changes. It's annoying to us old codgerly types, but true.



mcleod -> RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. (6/16/2008 1:32:07 PM)

It doen't have to mean we are slaves to him. But because he has created us and has loved us from the beginning of time. We should not be a to arrogant to call him master, saviour, Lord and anything else which shows respect.

Your life should show people of a God who loves them and cares for them. As I have written quite a few times in this tread. You get more people with action then talking until you are blue in the face. Which some believe to that is the only way to reach the lost, is by buring a hole in their ear.



M-Paul -> RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. (6/16/2008 5:53:34 PM)

It seems that this forum uses the term "Evangelical" for self identification. I consider myself a part of the emerging church. And if there is one thing that all emerging church people seem to agree on, it is that Christians who use the term "Evangelical" for self designation do not represent the emerging church movement fairly.

My personal opinion is, in fact, that the Evangelicals are deliberately misrepresenting the movement in pursuit of their self-interests. They cherry pick pieces of information and scenarios to put together in an academic package of what we are, and then, they imply because they have done it in a scholarly way, their position has to be the truth. That's fine for limited purposes and for awhile, but in the long run and in truth, it just ain't going to fly.

The emerging church represents new church structures and forms of worship that have been made possible or enhanced due to new forms of technology. That's it. -- but that in itself is very powerful, when the full ramifications are realized. Emerging church concepts can be utilized by conservatives, liberals, Catholics, or whatever. It's a grass roots movement and what seminary professors or Time magazine have to say about it doesn't amount to a hill of beans, when done to create their own self-serving observations.

M-Paul



prophet -> RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. (6/16/2008 8:07:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DenimDiva

hmmm..... the pastor at one of the ECMs referred to Jesus as "dude" at Bible study the other night. [&o]


really shows how much reverance and fear of God one has, does it not?



Peter_Gunn -> RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. (6/16/2008 9:29:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: prophet

quote:

ORIGINAL: DenimDiva

hmmm..... the pastor at one of the ECMs referred to Jesus as "dude" at Bible study the other night. [&o]


really shows how much reverance and fear of God one has, does it not?


Amen. We, as the body, seem to have lost the reverance of God and the concept of "holiness"...haven't we? That's one of the many problems I have with the ECM. We're not seeing the "take off your shoes" God but only want to cry "God is Love". We conveniently forget the rest.



Roberta_ -> RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. (6/17/2008 2:05:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn

quote:

ORIGINAL: prophet

quote:

ORIGINAL: DenimDiva

hmmm..... the pastor at one of the ECMs referred to Jesus as "dude" at Bible study the other night. [&o]


really shows how much reverance and fear of God one has, does it not?


Amen. We, as the body, seem to have lost the reverance of God and the concept of "holiness"...haven't we? That's one of the many problems I have with the ECM. We're not seeing the "take off your shoes" God but only want to cry "God is Love". We conveniently forget the rest.


Sadly that is happening in a lot of churches, not just ECMs.



Roberta_ -> RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. (6/17/2008 12:08:53 PM)

The following is something that my sister had to say on the topic. I did change some of the way things were worded so that I could stay within the TOS.

When a church sets up programs to help those with addictions, that is a good thing. When a church condones those things, that is hypocrisy.

Churches can't say that pornography, drugs, foul language, etc. are bad and then use a movie that promotes those things they are being hypocritical. You can't say this part of the movie is good and that part is bad. It's either all good or all bad.

When a church says that God is to be honored and respected and yet they refer to Him in common, slang language, that is hypocrisy. If you really love and respect God, then show me!

The Bible is pretty clear about lying, adultery and homosexuality being an abomination to God. Yet many churches are "looking the other way" and allowing liars, thieves, homosexuals and adulterers to run the church. How can the church claim to believe His Word is without error and yet condone the things that He says will lead to hell?

It's one thing when individual Christians have times of hypocrisy, but it's entirely different when whole churches set up belief systems that are hypocritical.

Why would I want to align myself with a God they don't even believe?


- My sister, agnostic



mcleod -> RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. (6/17/2008 2:39:45 PM)

quote:

Amen. We, as the body, seem to have lost the reverance of God and the concept of "holiness"...haven't we? That's one of the many problems I have with the ECM. We're not seeing the "take off your shoes" God but only want to cry "God is Love". We conveniently forget the rest.


What did I just read that God is not love? Gee the writer in John wrote and that he was quoting from the creator of everthing seen and unseen. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For god din't send his Son into the world to condemn, but to save the world through him.

Looks to me that God is love.



jazzact13 -> RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. (6/17/2008 2:52:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mcleod

quote:

Amen. We, as the body, seem to have lost the reverance of God and the concept of "holiness"...haven't we? That's one of the many problems I have with the ECM. We're not seeing the "take off your shoes" God but only want to cry "God is Love". We conveniently forget the rest.


What did I just read that God is not love? Gee the writer in John wrote and that he was quoting from the creator of everthing seen and unseen. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For god din't send his Son into the world to condemn, but to save the world through him.

Looks to me that God is love.


I think you just proved the point. For one thing, Peter didn't say "God isn't love", he said "We conveniently forget the rest", which looks to be what you just did. He said that the cry "God is love" has become an excuse for irreverance in regards to how some view God, and I think he has a point.



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