RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. (Full Version)

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mcleod -> RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. (6/17/2008 3:16:35 PM)

Gee you are quite the great judge. You have made a statement jazzact13 yet not having your facts straight as you appear to seem to think you have. God is love he loved first I or anyone else can chose how we show it back to him. You have missed the boat. You are like the person whom I had a discussion with this weekend. Which floored me because when I look at his life all I see is him is going to a church and reading books. Yet if some one came up to him and ask for help. He being very well off would tell them about the four spiritual laws and let the person starve to death.



jazzact13 -> RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. (6/17/2008 4:17:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mcleod

Gee you are quite the great judge. You have made a statement jazzact13 yet not having your facts straight as you appear to seem to think you have. God is love he loved first I or anyone else can chose how we show it back to him. You have missed the boat. You are like the person whom I had a discussion with this weekend. Which floored me because when I look at his life all I see is him is going to a church and reading books. Yet if some one came up to him and ask for help. He being very well off would tell them about the four spiritual laws and let the person starve to death.


Well, glad to see you waste no time with niceties, nor in actually interacting with anything I said--get straight to the judging and the insulting.

That must be the emergent SOP.

So, let's see...

You're the one whose posts said that someone else said something they didn't say. I corrected you. Now, we get you saying I'm wrong and someone who has "missed the boat", which are I think the nicer things you wrote about me.

Care to explain, because I for one don't take your word for what you're saying about me.



mcleod -> RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. (6/17/2008 8:46:49 PM)

I was quote from a person who said that God is not love and that we should respect him. Which I total respect even more than I did when I was fellowshiping in those so-called churchs that say they follow the way of the master by taking off their shoes. Yet when it comes to loving a outcast. They would run the other way. Then people would tell me well God wants me to take off my shoes because I'm on holy ground. Yet they haven't learned what God requires in the first place.
Which you seem to have missed those writings in the library too. God is very merciful for if he wasn't, you would not be breathing right know for every breath you take is given by the Almighty.

Your SOP could be taken as a vulgar text message and I didn't even come close to that a few weeks ago. Yet my message was removed by the administration. So when you use short things I might think you wrote something vulgar.



Roberta_ -> RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. (6/17/2008 9:06:03 PM)

What is SOP?



MrFribbles -> RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. (6/17/2008 10:02:40 PM)

quote:

What is SOP?


Unless I'm mistaken (which I have been in the past, heh), it means Standard Operating Procedure. "The normal way you do things," in other words, but TNWYDT doesn't look as good. ; )



Roberta_ -> RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. (6/17/2008 11:03:27 PM)

Ah, thank you!



jazzact13 -> RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. (6/18/2008 12:47:57 PM)

quote:

Your SOP could be taken as a vulgar text message


And I think you're looking for something to latch on to. MrFribbles is correct, and I think it's a pretty well-known abbreviation, especially given the context.

quote:

I was quote from a person who said that God is not love


Here is the quote you are referring to.

quote:

Amen. We, as the body, seem to have lost the reverance of God and the concept of "holiness"...haven't we? That's one of the many problems I have with the ECM. We're not seeing the "take off your shoes" God but only want to cry "God is Love". We conveniently forget the rest.


Please show, explicitly, where in the quote the person who wrote it said "God is not love", either that plainly or by implication. If any wish to see the full context, it is post #96 in this discussion, on the last page towards the bottom.

quote:

Which you seem to have missed those writings in the library too.


You seem to be claiming some kind of special knowledge about me, mcleod, enough to to makes judgments about my actions and motives. Perhaps you should enlighten us about where you get such knowledge.



mcleod -> RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. (6/18/2008 2:58:00 PM)

quote:

And I think you're looking for something to latch on to. MrFribbles is correct, and I think it's a pretty well-known abbreviation, especially given the context.



If MrFribbles would not have written that. I as I wrote could be taken out context.



Roberta_ -> RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. (6/18/2008 3:02:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jazzact13

quote:

Your SOP could be taken as a vulgar text message


And I think you're looking for something to latch on to. MrFribbles is correct, and I think it's a pretty well-known abbreviation, especially given the context.


Sorry that I didn't know what it meant. I certainly didn't think there would be any objection to my asking about it.

Sorry to go OT.....



jazzact13 -> RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. (6/18/2008 4:23:07 PM)

quote:

I certainly didn't think there would be any objection to my asking about it.


There wasn't an objection to asking about it, DD. That's fine. Trying to make it seem like I was doing some kind of "vulgar text message" thing was what got my goat.

Now that the SOP thing is cleared up...

How about answering my question, mcleod. Where in the quote is it stated that "God is not love".



EStan -> RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. (8/8/2008 10:18:47 AM)

I thought I would bring this thread back up - I just recently started hearing and learning more about the emergent movement. Rob Bell, Brian McLaren, Tony Jones, Doug Magitt - I know there are other "leaders" of the emergent church movement that seem to be, as someone else quoted CH Spurgeon saying, "changing the Bible to fit the church."

It seems to me that so many of the ideas put forth by these and other emergent leaders are very new-agey, postmodern, "relative truth" views. A denial of Christ as Savior - more of a "jesus" (not my Lord) who was a "good guy" who wanted to teach us how to be better.

Among several of these people, I've noticed a big push to read just the Gospels (but no "essentially literal" translations for these guys, they prefer their own paraphrase, or The Message (not bagging on Peterson's version, but I don't see it as useful for serious Bible study!)).

So what does anybody else see as the "goal" of the emergent/emerging church movement? Is it really just "feel-good" nonsense, recycled for a new, "hip" generation?



crankius -> RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. (8/8/2008 12:32:43 PM)

Some goals I see:

to intellectualize Christianity and make it have equal status in the world with other intellectual movements

to chastise and belittle the "vast right-wing conspiracy" branch of Christianity[8D]

to move the Gospel message away from the Romans Road presentation

to bring orthodox (and unorthodox) practices to evangelical Christianity

to elevate human writings, human experience, and human reasoning to the same level of authority as the Word of God



Peter_Gunn -> RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. (8/8/2008 1:40:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crankius

Some goals I see:

to intellectualize Christianity and make it have equal status in the world with other intellectual movements

to chastise and belittle the "vast right-wing conspiracy" branch of Christianity[8D]

to move the Gospel message away from the Romans Road presentation

to bring orthodox (and unorthodox) practices to evangelical Christianity

to elevate human writings, human experience, and human reasoning to the same level of authority as the Word of God


Amen. I've been doing some "light" research on this as of late, myself.

There is a billboard in my town for a new church..."Church For Folks Who Don't Like Church!" Sort of "come as you are...we won't ask you to change."

It's also considered "intolerant" to even hint that Jesus is the only way. It's becoming increasingly difficult to find a church, or even a pastor, that will boldly proclaim this.

Personally, I believe the Emergent Church is about the biggest threat around today. But, I also think it's a sure sign of the times we're in.



mushhead -> RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. (8/8/2008 3:08:15 PM)

quote:

Personally, I believe the Emergent Church is about the biggest threat around today. But, I also think it's a sure sign of the times we're in.

It certainly has the potential to be a big threat, Peter_Gunn. You also hit the nail on the head by saying it is a sure sign of the times we're in.

The EC began as a small group of [mostly] younger, educated, and highly entrepreneurial ministers who were assembled to discover why the church was not connecting with youth - both church and unchurched.

The Emergent/Emerging church movement is the result of their efforts. EC proponants claim that the message of Jesus was perverted by the church through a variety of unfortunate developments throughout history. Constatine's melding of church and government which led to the church using doctrine to gain and preserve political authority; the enlightenment that led to "age of modernity" and the attendant effort to seek certain knowledge built on the foundation of an unalterable foundation (authority), which, upon other things, led to the reformation and the establishment of Scripture as the authority for the faith.

Emergents believe the views and practices that developed as a result of these types of developments are the reason postmoderns reject christianity. They also believe that this rejection is legitimate and seek to return Christianity to its original message. Thus the titles (or subtitles) of many of their books, i.e. "The Secret Message of Jesus," "Repainting the Christian Faith," "Re-Imagining Christianity."

The problem lies in the "foundation" for their beliefs. Emergents either misunderstand history, or intentionally misrepresent it. Ultimately. the leaders of the EC are attempting to redefine the Gospel, to make it more palatable for today's world. They dismiss dogmatic doctrines as a relatively new concept and suggest that "walking in the Way of Jesus" is all that is necessary to be His disciple. In other words, "Love your neighbor as yourself;" and "Seek and do justice," ect. are all that are necessary to be a Christian. They also teach that knowing about or believing in Jesus are not requirments to be a Christian. They even go so far as to say that it is possible to reject the Gospel of Jesus and still be His follower because what one believes (doctrinally) is not important; what one does is all that matters. To make this point, Brian McLaren uses Gandhi as an example of someone that was a disciple of Jesus, but who didn't know it; because Gandhi lived according to the "Way of Jesus."

There is more - much, much more, but hopefully this gives you some insight into the EC's purpose.



mcleod -> RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. (8/8/2008 3:28:18 PM)

Oh brother why is it when some talks about mercy, justic, widows and not tipping the scales the wrong way. That they are coming up with a new religion. I stand corrected in one of my post in this tread infact on this page. The person did allow God to have love in his remark. But here we go and say whoops because you have a problem don't get me involed with it.
I have not yet heard Rob Bell over the stag in which he teaches that there is other ways to the throne of God. He has done somethings in the past in which his brain became to big. But as it happens he eats crow for awhile. As we all should do to keep us humble.
I have not read any Brian's books. But will have a opportunity to hear him talk. Which if I find he is off his rocker then I will deal with it all that time.
One more comment, the right wing christians have painted a very bad picture of Jesus Christ. I don't think some of the leaders in emergent have in front of millions made God out as a mockery.



mushhead -> RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. (8/9/2008 4:47:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mcleod

Oh brother why is it when some talks about mercy, justic, widows and not tipping the scales the wrong way. That they are coming up with a new religion. I stand corrected in one of my post in this tread infact on this page. The person did allow God to have love in his remark. But here we go and say whoops because you have a problem don't get me involed with it.
I have not yet heard Rob Bell over the stag in which he teaches that there is other ways to the throne of God. He has done somethings in the past in which his brain became to big. But as it happens he eats crow for awhile. As we all should do to keep us humble.
I have not read any Brian's books. But will have a opportunity to hear him talk. Which if I find he is off his rocker then I will deal with it all that time.
One more comment, the right wing christians have painted a very bad picture of Jesus Christ. I don't think some of the leaders in emergent have in front of millions made God out as a mockery.

The problem with the EC is not their focus on mercy, justice, and so forth. The real problem is their insistance that doctrinal beliefs are not important. I have had opportunity to debate some emergents, including one among the leadership, and they seem surprised when I point out that their own positions are theological (doctrinal). Everything they teach about God is essentially a doctrinal position. That said, Remember when Jesus chastised the Pharisees for tithing a tenth of..., but neglected the weightier matters of justice, mercy, and compassion? The pharisess insisted on adhering to certain doctrines, but they were also guilty of neglecting and ignoring others. Emergent's are guilty of the same thing. The only difference is the doctrines they choose to value and those they choose to ignore.

Remember what Jesus said the pharisees should have done? "You should have done the latter without ignoring the former." Emergents are guilty of doing some things Jesus taught and ignoring others.



facedown -> RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. (8/9/2008 9:30:14 PM)

mushead
so.....the major issue isn't againt mercy/justice/so-forth (which are extensions of faith in christ) but in other areas?
intersesting, because it seems everyone has some sort of issue. some sort of glance that is distorted.
everyone, at some point does one thing, and ingores the other.



mushhead -> RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. (8/10/2008 4:03:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: facedown

mushead
so.....the major issue isn't againt mercy/justice/so-forth (which are extensions of faith in christ) but in other areas?
intersesting, because it seems everyone has some sort of issue. some sort of glance that is distorted.
everyone, at some point does one thing, and ingores the other.

Hey facedown!
Yes, the major issue isn't mercy/justice/so-forth. Those are all things we Christians can, or at least, should agree on. The issue is that they intentionally reject what Jesus plainly said about such things as the nature and means of redemption, the consequence of rejecting Him, etc.



facedown -> RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. (8/10/2008 1:01:17 PM)

mushead
i'm thinking of what you've posted.
you know, it's very possible that what this argument is like one arguing about breathing, and what is more important - breathing in (knowing god), or breathing out (making god known).



mushhead -> RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. (8/10/2008 4:03:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: facedown

mushead
i'm thinking of what you've posted.
you know, it's very possible that what this argument is like one arguing about breathing, and what is more important - breathing in (knowing god), or breathing out (making god known).

facedown,
So, how would you answer your question?



facedown -> RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. (8/10/2008 6:29:32 PM)

mushead
breathing is one movement with two elements
it does no good at all to focus on breathing in and nothing on breathing out

seems a lot of focus for a few centuries was about breathing out, then for a few more centuries the focus turned to breathing in.

and here we are, with a lot of folks trying to find a way to fuse the two together. the folks whose emphasis is/has-been on breathing out take offense, and the folks whose emphasis is/has-been on breathing out take offense.

and most of this argument turns into self-defense and self-justification....



mushhead -> RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. (8/11/2008 12:20:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: facedown

mushead
breathing is one movement with two elements
it does no good at all to focus on breathing in and nothing on breathing out

seems a lot of focus for a few centuries was about breathing out, then for a few more centuries the focus turned to breathing in.

and here we are, with a lot of folks trying to find a way to fuse the two together. the folks whose emphasis is/has-been on breathing out take offense, and the folks whose emphasis is/has-been on breathing out take offense.

and most of this argument turns into self-defense and self-justification....

facedown,
somehow I knew what your answer was going to be - you'd think we've had this discussion before.

As for your final comment: its not the focus on the either the breathing out or breathing in that offends, but how one or the other is defined. A person doesn't know God just because he says so, and it is impossible to make God known without first knowing God. The world is populated by millions of people who think they know God, but who are worshipping false gods. And Jesus himself, warned to beware of "false prophets" who He described as acting very much like His followers, but who do not know Him (or rather are not known by Him).

Jesus' words reveal that what one believes is vitally important.



facedown -> RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. (8/11/2008 6:06:33 AM)

mushead
i tend to agree with some parts, but also disagree.

i tend to see that it is the 'focus'. for example, if i focus on making god known, but say little if anything about knowing god, then others will begin to assume that in fact, i have said a great deal about knowing god. same things in the opposite direction.

in addition, one cannot make god known, if one does not know god.
and one cannot know god, without making god known.

these are two things that are often forgotten as we argue back and forth.
but for many, it's a scary notion and thus wholly rejected. take for example the folks who tend to focus on knowing god. they can't accept that another who is walking a life doing justly, loving mercy, and walking humbly, yet does not use the lingo may actually 'know god'. the same is true for the opposite.

what we believe is very important. no doubt.
one might could say, that what we do is the purest reflection of what we believe.

or as the man said "you can talk the talk, but can you walk the walk?"



P31W -> RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. (8/11/2008 9:12:13 AM)

I think the movment has lost it's steam. I don't believe there is any real growth in the movement. In a few years most people will have forgotten about this whole false movement. I believe the movement will fade into the liberal theology camp and find it's home there among it's brothers and sisters.



Codegrazer -> RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. (8/11/2008 10:37:11 AM)

quote:

take for example the folks who tend to focus on knowing god. they can't accept that another who is walking a life doing justly, loving mercy, and walking humbly, yet does not use the lingo may actually 'know god'.


Fist, it's not about the "lingo" it is about the Truth as plainly given in the Word of God. Many "good" (by man's standards - not God's) simply are not saved because, as the gospel points out, God (with a capitol "G") is Holy and cannot abide sin of any sort. Jesus paid the penalty for that sin (which ALL men have) for those who will acknowledge and accept that free gift. New age heresy is so very destructive because it falsely leads people to assume their salvation based upon their supposed "good works" which is diametrically opposed to what the Bible tells us. The devil is a most accomplished deceiver.

 6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
John 14:6

Through Jesus, no other. To teach otherwise is doing the work of Satan. For the sake of every beloved soul We must counter such deception at every turn.



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