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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/11/2008 1:06:55 PM
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jazzact13
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quote:
Oh brother why is it when some talks about mercy, justic, widows and not tipping the scales the wrong way. That they are coming up with a new religion.
That isn't why emergents are being questioned and rejected. That's how they try to justify their bad ideas (and when you look at how they want to do those things, it adds up to little more then warmed-over socialism).
quote:
I have not yet heard Rob Bell over the stag in which he teaches that there is other ways to the throne of God.
From an interview at theooze.
quote:
You recently preached a sermon called “God wants to save Christians from hell.” I was discussing the message with a guy who after hearing this message was a bit disturbed and somehow came to the conclusion that you didn’t believe in a literal hell. Let me ask you, do you believe in a literal hell that is defined simply as eternal separation from God?
Well, there are people now who are seriously separated from God. So I would assume that God will leave room for people to say “no I don’t want any part of this”. My question would be, does grace win or is the human heart stronger than God’s love or grace. Who wins, does darkness and sin and hardness of heart win or does God’s love and grace win?
I don’t know why as a Christian you would have to make such declarative statements. Like your friend, does he want there to be a literal hell? I am a bit skeptical of somebody who argues that passionately for a literal hell, why would you be on that side? Like if you are going to pick causes, if you’re literally going to say these are the lines in the sand, I’ve got to know that people are going to burn forever, this is one of the things that you drive your stake in the ground on. I don’t understand that.
quote:
One more comment, the right wing christians have painted a very bad picture of Jesus Christ. I don't think some of the leaders in emergent have in front of millions made God out as a mockery.
Whatever "right wing Christians" may have done (and how much of that is media spin?), it in no way excuses emergent's false teachings.
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there is no justice in the rhetoric of class hatred
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/11/2008 2:08:51 PM
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mushhead
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
I think the movment has lost it's steam. I don't believe there is any real growth in the movement. In a few years most people will have forgotten about this whole false movement. I believe the movement will fade into the liberal theology camp and find it's home there among it's brothers and sisters.
I agree 100% P31W. I have been saying that very thing when presenting the EC to church groups. I think that Tony Jone's book "The New Christians" reveals the outrageousness of the EC so clearly that the more people who read it, the more will realize what the EC really is.
That said, I am concerned about the fact that the EC doesn't seem to be on the SBC's radar and that the SBC owned and operated Glorietta Conference Center hosts the annual EC leadership conference. In other words, before they are completely marginalized, they could still make inroads into the SBC and damage the denomination before the SBC realizes what happened.
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/11/2008 3:28:59 PM
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Peter_Gunn
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mushhead
quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
I think the movment has lost it's steam. I don't believe there is any real growth in the movement. In a few years most people will have forgotten about this whole false movement. I believe the movement will fade into the liberal theology camp and find it's home there among it's brothers and sisters.
I agree 100% P31W. I have been saying that very thing when presenting the EC to church groups. I think that Tony Jone's book "The New Christians" reveals the outrageousness of the EC so clearly that the more people who read it, the more will realize what the EC really is.
I have to disagree with you, Friend. Not to stray, but it's like the people who say Obama will never be elected because people are too smart to put him into office.
We in the absolute truth camp, typically have more contact with those within the camp, so we feel there are too many that know the Truth to allow this false doctrine to stay in place. But we must not be deceived...we're not in the majority. And there are many who are blinded to the Truth that will keep the EC not only alive, but thriving.
The EC is a very subtle, very attractive beast. As I type this, I'm seeing some that I had thought were very solid in their faith being led astray. People that I KNEW would never succumb to this apostasy. For many people, including these, they're drawn to the emotional, feel-good aspect of it.
quote:
ORIGINAL: mushhead
That said, I am concerned about the fact that the EC doesn't seem to be on the SBC's radar and that the SBC owned and operated Glorietta Conference Center hosts the annual EC leadership conference. In other words, before they are completely marginalized, they could still make inroads into the SBC and damage the denomination before the SBC realizes what happened.
I think it's too late. I come from SBC-land and know of MANY SBC churches that have been deeply infiltrated by this false doctrine. Most said churches have lost membership due to it, but it's difficult for these people to find a home...I'm one of them...it's kind of a "lost sheep" feeling.
But, make no mistake, the churches that teach the EC theology are growing and prospering. They don't, for a New York minute, miss those of us who have left, and they really don't care why we left, either.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/11/2008 3:50:14 PM
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Roberta_
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In my findings thus far, I'm finding that the EC is not for the mature Christian or the Christian who desires to mature.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/11/2008 3:50:15 PM
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jazzact13
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I have to agree with you, Peter, in thinking that EC is not dying (though I could wish it were). Especially as it ties itself to the political left, and tries to portray itself as 'compassionate and for justice', there will be people who will fall for it's spin. There is also the connection with the religious ecumenicals, as the Seeds of Compassion event showed a few months ago, when two emergent 'pastors' were invited to it.
_____________________________
there is no justice in the rhetoric of class hatred
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/11/2008 4:49:35 PM
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Peter_Gunn
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jazzact13
I have to agree with you, Peter, in thinking that EC is not dying (though I could wish it were). Especially as it ties itself to the political left, and tries to portray itself as 'compassionate and for justice', there will be people who will fall for it's spin. There is also the connection with the religious ecumenicals, as the Seeds of Compassion event showed a few months ago, when two emergent 'pastors' were invited to it.
I just checked out Seeds of Compassion...had never heard of them before.
Wow! Scary stuff! Notice how they're after the kids? But they sure sound all sweet and fluffy!
One of the first things I always look at when I'm checking out something like that, is the program's "partners"...that usually tells me a lot about something. No different here...they even have a school of theology as a partner.
Yep...if you want to know what EC's all about, there it is.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/11/2008 5:30:06 PM
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Sonrise
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Anyone familiar with New Spring Church in SC? Yesterday the pastor said that he works out listening to Eminem on his ipod claiming that he "can't get angry listening to Amazing Grace and Eminem needs the Lord". I thought that was a bit odd since everyone needs the Lord. Pornstars need the Lord, should we watch porn?
They have a full coffee bar, i.e frappucinos, lattes, mochas, muffins, etc. Not a big deal I guess, but honest to goodness the coffee to Bible ratio of the people walking into the auditorium is about 7-1. Almost no one has a Bible but almost everyone has a trendy coffee drink. The pastor is usually an awesome preacher but he's soooooo concerned with being hip and trendy. I dunno, I'm kinda bummed.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/11/2008 6:38:58 PM
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mushhead
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quote:
I have to disagree with you, Friend. Not to stray, but it's like the people who say Obama will never be elected because people are too smart to put him into office.
We in the absolute truth camp, typically have more contact with those within the camp, so we feel there are too many that know the Truth to allow this false doctrine to stay in place. But we must not be deceived...we're not in the majority. And there are many who are blinded to the Truth that will keep the EC not only alive, but thriving.
The EC is a very subtle, very attractive beast. As I type this, I'm seeing some that I had thought were very solid in their faith being led astray. People that I KNEW would never succumb to this apostasy. For many people, including these, they're drawn to the emotional, feel-good aspect of it.
Peter,
Yes, it is a very subtle and attractively "deceptive" beast. I too know many good "theologically grounded" Christians that have been led astray. And ditto to some here at CW. But keep in mind that many of these people are led astray because they think the EC is something other than it is. As the EC gains acceptance as a "legitimate movement" they are opening up and speaking clearly about what they believe. I am seeing more and more people - including died in the wool liberals - who are turning away from the movement as a result.
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/11/2008 6:57:12 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jazzact13
quote:
You recently preached a sermon called “God wants to save Christians from hell.” I was discussing the message with a guy who after hearing this message was a bit disturbed and somehow came to the conclusion that you didn’t believe in a literal hell. Let me ask you, do you believe in a literal hell that is defined simply as eternal separation from God?
Well, there are people now who are seriously separated from God. So I would assume that God will leave room for people to say “no I don’t want any part of this”. My question would be, does grace win or is the human heart stronger than God’s love or grace. Who wins, does darkness and sin and hardness of heart win or does God’s love and grace win?
I don’t know why as a Christian you would have to make such declarative statements. Like your friend, does he want there to be a literal hell? I am a bit skeptical of somebody who argues that passionately for a literal hell, why would you be on that side? Like if you are going to pick causes, if you’re literally going to say these are the lines in the sand, I’ve got to know that people are going to burn forever, this is one of the things that you drive your stake in the ground on. I don’t understand that.
Whatever "right wing Christians" may have done (and how much of that is media spin?), it in no way excuses emergent's false teachings.
Actually, it helps if you read the comments that followed the interview that explained the above quote by Bell:
quote:
I wish I would have had more time to explore this issue further with Rob, however I had already exceeded my interview time with him. I want to say that the emotion of what he was saying, which may not come through in a manuscript was that many Christians get so hung up with the doctrinal issues and miss the heart of evangelism which is to love those people who don't know Jesus and do everything possible to keep them from being separated from Him. If we had as much zeal for people as we do doctrine sometimes, it would overshadow the need to hammer those issues so hard. Maybe it was more like "yeah I believe in hell but let's focus on loving people and showing them Jesus, rather than telling them where they are going to go." Also, during the session earlier that day at the conference (Isn't she beautiful), Rob did specifically say "of course I believe in a literal hell".
vic
I didn't see a single objectionable item in the interview, honestly.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/11/2008 7:05:13 PM
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GroupW
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Forgot to mention....
I've written this before, and I'll write it again.
Painting all churches with a Brian McLaren shade of gray is neither accurate nor fair. Trying to describle all emergent churches with a single label is a lot like trying to describe all non-catholic churches as "protestant". There is simply way too much variation within the term to be able to make judgements about any particular church.
I have belonged to several churches that I would describe as "emergent" and have found them to be very evangelical in their theology. Obviously, that's not true of all "emergent" churches.
There are liberal "emergents", evangelical "emergents" and all other sorts of "emergents". Among all of them, there are some common themes that the current evangelical church would do well to explore. The value of liturgy, church history, modern ways of communicating old truths to a post modern population, the use of the arts - none of these things are of theological import but are characteristics of the emergent church and have value apart from that movement.
Rather than criticise the movement, I would prefer that we learn from it and reenergize the modern church.
End of rant.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/11/2008 7:23:20 PM
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mushhead
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
Forgot to mention....
I've written this before, and I'll write it again.
Painting all churches with a Brian McLaren shade of gray is neither accurate nor fair. Trying to describle all emergent churches with a single label is a lot like trying to describe all non-catholic churches as "protestant". There is simply way too much variation within the term to be able to make judgements about any particular church.
I have belonged to several churches that I would describe as "emergent" and have found them to be very evangelical in their theology. Obviously, that's not true of all "emergent" churches.
There are liberal "emergents", evangelical "emergents" and all other sorts of "emergents". Among all of them, there are some common themes that the current evangelical church would do well to explore. The value of liturgy, church history, modern ways of communicating old truths to a post modern population, the use of the arts - none of these things are of theological import but are characteristics of the emergent church and have value apart from that movement.
Rather than criticise the movement, I would prefer that we learn from it and reenergize the modern church.
End of rant.
GroupW,
I have found that interviewer comments are the worst source for information about emergents. Read some of Andy Stanley's descriptions of the EC in "Christianity Today." They do not comport with reality in any way.
I do agree that some who call themselves emergent are Biblical. The problem in that case is not our misuse of the term, but theirs. If they are theologically orthodox, they are not emergent. While it is true that a wide variety of emergents can be found, it is also true that all emergents adhere to some basic, very un-Biblical - doctrines.
As for your concluding statement: If I may paraphrase Jesus, "We should do the former without ingoring the latter."
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/11/2008 9:59:56 PM
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Peter_Gunn
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Group W, would you please define the term, "Emergent (or Emerging) Church" as you understand it?
Thanks!
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/11/2008 11:03:04 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mushhead
GroupW,
I have found that interviewer comments are the worst source for information about emergents.
Even when it's the interviewer himself making the comments to clarify a misunderstanding? What I quoted was from the interviewer commenting on a misunderstanding.
Again, I found nothing in the linked interview that would cause offense.
BT
< Message edited by GroupW -- 8/12/2008 10:30:39 AM >
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/11/2008 11:04:28 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
Group W, would you please define the term, "Emergent (or Emerging) Church" as you understand it?
Thanks!
Would be happy to. Give me a bit - gotta get a few other things done.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/12/2008 6:22:32 AM
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facedown
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codegrazer
our communion with god, is not shrouded in anything that is created - would you agree?
while many 'good' people may very well be - the opposite is true as well.
i'm not into 'new age' stuff, but what's interesting, is that quite a few evangelical gatherings are very destructive because it falsely leads peopel to assume that their salvation is based on their supposed "repentance" - in other words - if you just repent a little more, then god won't be angry with you - etc, etc.
so, how do you counter it?
_____________________________
-| those who say, don't know. those who know, don't say |-
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/12/2008 8:08:52 AM
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jazzact13
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GroupW...
So, in the interview, Bell says this.
quote:
I don’t know why as a Christian you would have to make such declarative statements. Like your friend, does he want there to be a literal hell? I am a bit skeptical of somebody who argues that passionately for a literal hell, why would you be on that side?
But the interviewer claims to have heard Bell say this.
quote:
Also, during the session earlier that day at the conference (Isn't she beautiful), Rob did specifically say "of course I believe in a literal hell".
So, will the real Rob Bell please stand up???
_____________________________
there is no justice in the rhetoric of class hatred
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/12/2008 8:21:00 AM
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Soxfan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
Rather than criticise the movement, I would prefer that we learn from it and reenergize the modern church.
End of rant.
There should be no such thing as the "modern church" God is the same yesterday, today and forever.
I think it was Spurgeon that said, and I'll paraphrase; "We shouldn't try to fit the Bible to the times, but rather fit the times to the Bible"
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"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/12/2008 8:24:59 AM
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Peter_Gunn
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
There should be no such thing as the "modern church" God is the same yesterday, today and forever.
I think it was Spurgeon that said, and I'll paraphrase; "We shouldn't try to fit the Bible to the times, but rather fit the times to the Bible"
Amen and amen!
But, I'm afraid, Soxfan, you and I are in a very minute minority...even around here! 
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/12/2008 8:28:23 AM
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facedown
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colliefan
what does it take?
if i read those two statements, what i hear is "while this exists, it doesn't have to be, nor should it be, the thing that we argue so passionately for"
you (and others) it seems hears something different.
so...what does it take?
it seems it takes more than words - but it always seems to come back to words - quite a vicious circle.
soxfan
i assume then, that you're in communion with an apostolic church?
notice, how the word that caught your attention in groupw's statement was "modern". what i heard was "today's" church - as in, all the you's and i's out there walking the world. you seem to have heard something different. what did you hear, and why?
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-| those who say, don't know. those who know, don't say |-
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/12/2008 9:43:50 AM
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jazzact13
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Guess whose getting plugged at Emergent Village? (like Oprah wasn't enough)
Nothing New (Thank Goodness)
quote:
Tolle doesn’t claim to be a Christian, and I don’t know of any Christian communities that claim him. But so what — maybe there’s another question to be asked: “How could Eckhart Tolle help Christians be better Christians?” Tolle had a powerful spiritual experience of insight that revolutionized his down-and-out life, and he is now a spiritual light/guru/presence who has apparently just been kicked through the goalposts of fame by Oprah. When I read him about four years ago, I wasn’t concerned about his views of Jesus or the Bible because I wasn’t taking him on as a Christian teacher. I didn’t come to agree with some of his ideas, and I never fully understood others. I see him as a fellow human being who has been spiritually transformed. I’d like to hear his story and be changed by it.
Tolle had a "powerful spiritual experience"? Well, whoop-dee-doo. Isn't that also what the guy behind the "Conversations with God" tripe also says?
Isn't it funny how the article writer "wasn’t concerned about his views of Jesus or the Bible"? Doesn't that pretty much sum up the whole emergent thing in a nutshell (unless you're a literalist, then they care that you NOT share with them)?
This is sad. I understand her wanting to find comfort in her grief, but simply because something is comforting doesn't mean it's true.
_____________________________
there is no justice in the rhetoric of class hatred
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/12/2008 9:45:35 AM
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jazzact13
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btw Kudos to the commentors on that blog who responded well to this attempt to push Tolle's new age nonsense. Yes, kudos even to you, abanes.
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there is no justice in the rhetoric of class hatred
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/12/2008 10:05:13 AM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jazzact13
GroupW...
So, in the interview, Bell says this.
quote:
I don’t know why as a Christian you would have to make such declarative statements. Like your friend, does he want there to be a literal hell? I am a bit skeptical of somebody who argues that passionately for a literal hell, why would you be on that side?
But the interviewer claims to have heard Bell say this.
quote:
Also, during the session earlier that day at the conference (Isn't she beautiful), Rob did specifically say "of course I believe in a literal hell".
So, will the real Rob Bell please stand up???
I think the real Rob Bell is pretty clear in both sections. In the first of your quotes, he's emphasizing that he's skeptical of people who insist on the the existance of hell over and above the message of God's love. He's expressing a wariness regarding the "hellfire and brimstone" population within Christianity. It's a wariness that I share. In the second quote, he's clarifying the first quote in order to avoid the kind of misunderstanding you seem to be unintentionally falling into. Personally, I don't see the conflict there at all.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/12/2008 10:23:13 AM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
Group W, would you please define the term, "Emergent (or Emerging) Church" as you understand it?
Thanks!
Here's what I posted elsewhere on these forums on the issue:
quote:
I think there is a range wide enough in the movement to defy easy classification, but I can tell you some principles that were operative in an emergent-style church we attended briefly.
1) A belief that the church is constantly "emerging" in it's current culture and adapts its forms in order to speak God's message to each generation.
2) A belief that the church is an organism with a past, present and future, and that the traditions of each past generation are instructive for the current and the next. This tended to play itself out in the use of older or even early church hymns, creeds, prayers, poems as integral parts of worship right alongside contemporary praise & worship music. Along with this, a greater use of the arts as part of worship.
3) A tendency toward the contemplative, as might be seen in some of the ancient fathers.
4) A willingness to examine other faiths, but through Christian lenses, to see what wisdom can be gleaned. (Some emergent churches might be more syncretistic than this ...)
...A full "doctrinal" list for all emergents might be a bit like listing all the various shades of the color green...
In addition to that, I would add:
5) A greater willingness to tolerate theological differences on non-essential items of the faith. (Naturally, the devil is in the details there. What each church considers non-essential can vary. In my experience, all considered the concepts of sin, repentance, salvation by grace through Christ as most definitely essential.)
6) In some but not all emergent churches, a more post-modern take on hermeneutics whereby the role of personal experience in biblical interpretation is considered unavoidable. (Usually, the position is that the only meaning is what the original author intended. We, however, are so bound up in our own experience and use of language that our own personal experience has an effect on your hermeneutics and can't be avoided.)
7) While there is typically a firm belief in spiritual absolutes, these absolutes are typically taught through stories, interaction, and communal activity as opposed to more structured dogmatic teaching.
8) There is a strong attempt to communicate spiritual truths using secular language. The avoidance of church-speak is one thing that I think leads to a tremendous amount of misunderstanding.
9) Generally it's less confrontational in it's evangelism style, preferring conversation and relationship as methods over structured teaching and argumentation.
10) A strong ecumenical spirit.
Across the dimensions above, I can't say that the emergent church is either right or wrong, just different. There some elements in the above characteristics that I think evangelicals could learn from. Overall, I would say that the emergents are attempting to avoid the accusation of being technically correct but practically ineffective or, worse yet, irrelevant. The focus on what actually works in today's culture isn't really such a bad thing.
< Message edited by GroupW -- 8/12/2008 10:42:16 AM >
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“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/12/2008 10:28:05 AM
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GroupW
Posts: 2909
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
Rather than criticise the movement, I would prefer that we learn from it and reenergize the modern church.
End of rant.
There should be no such thing as the "modern church" God is the same yesterday, today and forever.
I think it was Spurgeon that said, and I'll paraphrase; "We shouldn't try to fit the Bible to the times, but rather fit the times to the Bible"
Times change, SoxFan. God is always the same, but people, cultures and institutions change. The church needs to adapt along with culture where it can and yet hold firm where it must. I think we evangelicals need to reconsider how we approach the world we live in today. At this point, I think evangelicals have become a distinct subculture that is somewhat insular and does not always understand how others within the community think and speak. That's bad, and that's where I think the emergents have something they can teach us if we were open to listening.
We don't have to agree with them straight down the line in order to listen and be taught.
BT
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/12/2008 10:30:04 AM
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GroupW
Posts: 2909
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: facedown
colliefan
what does it take?
if i read those two statements, what i hear is "while this exists, it doesn't have to be, nor should it be, the thing that we argue so passionately for"
That's how I read it, and I agree with it.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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