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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/12/2008 10:36:11 AM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mushhead
I do agree that some who call themselves emergent are Biblical.
Great - we agree there.
quote:
If they are theologically orthodox, they are not emergent.
We disagree here. I would tend to call that a gross oversimplification. Maybe I should ask you to define the term emergent and exactly what is (are) the distinguishing characteristic(s) that makes all emergents unbiblical?
I agree we may not be using the term consistently between us and hence we may actually agree more than we disagree.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/12/2008 11:15:35 AM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
Group W, would you please define the term, "Emergent (or Emerging) Church" as you understand it?
Thanks!
As I thought about it, I realized how good of a question this is. Within this thread, I'm having a hard time distinguishing if we're talking about "emerging" or "emergent" (as Mark Driscoll would seek to differentiate the two) or both.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/12/2008 11:52:18 AM
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mcleod
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Say Mushhead
quote:
I have found that interviewer comments are the worst source for information about emergents. Read some of Andy Stanley's descriptions of the EC in "Christianity Today." They do not comport with reality in any way.
I do agree that some who call themselves emergent are Biblical. The problem in that case is not our misuse of the term, but theirs. If they are theologically orthodox, they are not emergent. While it is true that a wide variety of emergents can be found, it is also true that all emergents adhere to some basic, very un-Biblical - doctrines.
As for your concluding statement: If I may paraphrase Jesus, "We should do the former without ingoring the latter."
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Boy have you missed the mark you go by what someone writes in their book to slam another movement By the way in that article of Bell. Idon't think that the Father or the Son wants anyone to go to hell. If that would be the case then Jesus up in lied when recorded in the first part of John.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/12/2008 12:15:09 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
they can't accept that another who is walking a life doing justly, loving mercy, and walking humbly, yet does not use the lingo may actually 'know god'. the same is true for the opposite
Ghandi's lifestyle was like this but he did not know God.
quote:
i'm not into 'new age' stuff, but what's interesting, is that quite a few evangelical gatherings are very destructive because it falsely leads peopel to assume that their salvation is based on their supposed "repentance" - in other words - if you just repent a little more, then god won't be angry with you - etc, etc.
God's wrath was fully meted out Jesus Christ in his death on the cross. Those who do not repent and reject Jesus Christ and his death and resurrection will suffer the full wrath of God.
Acts 3:17 - 21 (ESV) 17“And now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did also your rulers. 18But what God foretold by the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ would suffer, he thus fulfilled. 19Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, 20that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, 21whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago.
Acts 17:30 - 31 (ESV) 30The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, 31because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”
2 Cor 12:21 (ESV) 21I fear that when I come again my God may humble me before you, and I may have to mourn over many of those who sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual immorality, and sensuality that they have practiced.
Matt 11:20 - 24 (ESV) 20Then he began to denounce the cities where most of his mighty works had been done, because they did not repent. 21£“Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22But I tell you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you. 23And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You will be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you.”
Luke 13:2 - 3 (ESV) 2And he answered them, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered in this way? 3No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/12/2008 12:27:27 PM
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sue244
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
Rather than criticise the movement, I would prefer that we learn from it and reenergize the modern church.
End of rant.
There should be no such thing as the "modern church" God is the same yesterday, today and forever.
I think it was Spurgeon that said, and I'll paraphrase; "We shouldn't try to fit the Bible to the times, but rather fit the times to the Bible"
Times change, SoxFan. God is always the same, but people, cultures and institutions change. The church needs to adapt along with culture where it can and yet hold firm where it must. I think we evangelicals need to reconsider how we approach the world we live in today. At this point, I think evangelicals have become a distinct subculture that is somewhat insular and does not always understand how others within the community think and speak. That's bad, and that's where I think the emergents have something they can teach us if we were open to listening.
We don't have to agree with them straight down the line in order to listen and be taught.
BT
I bolded the sentence that stood out to me. As a history major I have come to realize that we don't change as much as we like to think we do. In fact the more things change the more they stay the same. I'm reading this book called A Conservitive History of the American Left And I could take some of the quotes from people in the early 1800s and people would assume that they were from people in 2008. The superficial may change, but the root of all problems is always the same in every generation. The Solution to the problem is the same in every generation. No matter how many PC social agendas they may take on they're missing the problem. Poverty is not The problem, Sickness is not The problem Sin is The Problem and the only Solution is Jesus. The Jesus of the Bible who died in my place, not as an example of the worst of humanity poured out on Him, but as Substuanary death.
_____________________________
"Indeed I Tremble for this country when I reflect that God is Just and His Justice cannot Sleep Forever"
Jefferson
"Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.” Churchill
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/12/2008 12:41:30 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sue244
I bolded the sentence that stood out to me. As a history major I have come to realize that we don't change as much as we like to think we do. In fact the more things change the more they stay the same. I'm reading this book called A Conservitive History of the American Left And I could take some of the quotes from people in the early 1800s and people would assume that they were from people in 2008. The superficial may change, but the root of all problems is always the same in every generation. The Solution to the problem is the same in every generation. No matter how many PC social agendas they may take on they're missing the problem. Poverty is not The problem, Sickness is not The problem Sin is The Problem and the only Solution is Jesus. The Jesus of the Bible who died in my place, not as an example of the worst of humanity poured out on Him, but as Substuanary death.
One my favorite verses is in Ecclesiastes - "There is nothing new under the sun." I totally agree with your statement. However, while people don't change in their fundamental nature, languages and customs do indeed morph over time. How we choose to communicate the eternal truths of Christ does change over time and across cultures. Paul himself did this - he made himself all things to all men that some might be saved. Paul adapted himself to the culture that he found himself in - where he could do so without sacrificing the truth he was preaching.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/12/2008 12:42:20 PM
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facedown
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colliefan
wow - what a miss on the response...
in regards to justice, mercy, and humility - is there another source?
on the other quote: when "repentance" turns into another "sacrifice" that must be offered - and only seems to increase over the passage of time - the point of "repentance" has been missed by a mile.
and don't forget the telones, who quite literally was an extortionist beating the streets to collect money - an outsider - one despised and hated by the "god-followers". in the midst of the scene, the telones is judged by a credible (to the fellow 'god-followers) witness and accuser. yet, what is the verdict? that the one believed to be un-loved/forgiven/redeemed/saved/accepted/etc/etc by god was the one, who at the end of the day was justified.
and the one who thanked god for the scriptures, for being accepted by god? he finds no justice or favor.
_____________________________
-| you are the ones who justify yourselves |-
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/12/2008 1:14:47 PM
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mcleod
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There is one thing I notice also in my daily walks here on earth. Is that someone will paint a super highway to get to heaven or eternal life. Yet will keep on sinning which I have running through my head where Paul as a fellower human being said that he fought in his mind of good and evil. Yet he also talk that we who should know how to live a life that is aroma to the Lord and don't. Ask this simple question; should we keep sinning that grace may abound?
The reason I bring this up is that those who talk that all I have to do is ask God for forgiveness. And not change my way of thinking are sadly to say mistaken.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/12/2008 1:18:04 PM
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Peter_Gunn
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This is from the opening page of CrossWalk.com today...
http://www.crosswalk.com/books/11579566/
Would you (anyone out there) see this as part of the ECM?
And look at this in particular...
"The seminar was a resounding success. By week five, the number of online students watching it had risen to one million, and more than ten million copies of the previous webcasts had been downloaded by fans of both Oprah and Eckhart."
Look at the numbers!
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/12/2008 1:20:51 PM
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Peter_Gunn
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
This is from the opening page of CrossWalk.com today...
http://www.crosswalk.com/books/11579566/
Would you (anyone out there) see this as part of the ECM?
And look at this in particular...
"The seminar was a resounding success. By week five, the number of online students watching it had risen to one million, and more than ten million copies of the previous webcasts had been downloaded by fans of both Oprah and Eckhart."
Look at the numbers!
Ahh...I see that it has been addressed. (I did a search after posting this...always putting my cart before my horse!)
But, my question still stands...can this be an arm of the ECM?
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/12/2008 1:43:13 PM
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GroupW
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Peter-two questions:
1) Thoughts on my definition?
2) Thoughts on my question regarding the subject of the thread - emerging or emergent? I think in retrospect I would draw a distinction there since I have different comfort levels on those two as well as different levels of education regarding significant theological tenets. I'd be much more willing to defend emerging than emergent.
BT
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/12/2008 1:50:41 PM
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mushhead
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quote:
We disagree here. I would tend to call that a gross oversimplification. Maybe I should ask you to define the term emergent and exactly what is (are) the distinguishing characteristic(s) that makes all emergents unbiblical?
I agree we may not be using the term consistently between us and hence we may actually agree more than we disagree.
The words,"Emergent" and "Emerging" share the same definition. The only difference between them is how they are used in a sentence.
To answer your question:
1-deny the necessity, or the reality, of doctrinal absolutes other than Jesus' teaching to love one another.
2-deny that faith in Jesus is necessary for salvation
3-deny that faith in Jesus is necessary to be a disciple of Jesus
4-deny that the Bible teaches doctrines that are absolute - true for all people, in all places and in every age
5-deny the existance of a literal hell
6-promote "convesational theology" - whereby people determine their own spiritual truths, lessons learned, and personal enlightenment and share them with others who can then decide for themselves what to embrace or reject.
7-believe that all religions are both good and bad
8-believe that all religions must dialogue (think conversationa theology) in order to discover from one another truths that should be adopted and to realize the bad that must be abandoned.
9-believe teaching that rejecting Jesus will lead to condemnation is arrogant exclusiveness, unloving, and un-Biblical
10-believe that conversion to Christianity is not necessary; IOW's a Buddhist or Muslim can become a follower of Christ and still remain a practicing adherant of Buddhism or Islam.
11-believe the Bible tells a story of:
- God's efforts to liberate creation from "sin" through teaching by example;
- man's continued rebellion;
- the consequences of each.
12-believe individuals and societies determine truth for themselves based on personal experience and social conditioning.
The list above - though not exhaustive - identifies the basic beliefs that emergents share. Based on my conversations with emergents, if I had to pick which beliefs they say are essential to participating in their community (I had a long conversation with a group of emergents about whether or not an evangelical could be considered emergent. The answer: No.), I would pick #'s 1,4,6,7,9,11,12.
I know that some people and churches call themselves emerging, but they are not, any more than I am not, as a resident of Salt Lake City, a mormon even if I call myself one. I do not believe what the mormons believe, and neither do doctrinally orthodox christrians believe what emergents/emerging believe. They might be doctrinally orthodox christians whose ministries are focused on people that see the world through postmodern eyes, but they are not emerging. And it is foolish for them to say they are.
Finally, probably the best known person using the "emerging" moniker is Mark Driscoll. Is he emerging? Not according to those in the emerging/emergent movement. Why? They say it is because he doesn't believe what they teach. They are right!
< Message edited by mushhead -- 8/12/2008 1:59:47 PM >
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/12/2008 2:23:32 PM
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mushhead
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
There is one thing I notice also in my daily walks here on earth. Is that someone will paint a super highway to get to heaven or eternal life. Yet will keep on sinning which I have running through my head where Paul as a fellower human being said that he fought in his mind of good and evil. Yet he also talk that we who should know how to live a life that is aroma to the Lord and don't. Ask this simple question; should we keep sinning that grace may abound?
The reason I bring this up is that those who talk that all I have to do is ask God for forgiveness. And not change my way of thinking are sadly to say mistaken.
mcleod,
One point: people cannot change their lives; only God can do that. Taking your comments as I believe you intended them: you are right about phony Christians, but I don't know too many people who actually teach that changed lives are not a natural result of salvation. The fact that some people apparently claim to be Christian, but dont act like it, doesn't say anything about legitimate Biblical doctrine. Their behavior might say something about what they really believe, but their behavior is in no way a means of determining legitimate doctrine.
Adherents to the EC do something that is not so different than what you described. Instead of claiming to embrace Jesus' salvation but not living like it, emergents change Jesus' teachings to fit their beliefs about spirituality and their lifestyle choices. Group A doesn't live what they claim to believe; Group B tailors their beliefs to agree with how they live. Both fail to submit to Jesus as Lord.
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/12/2008 2:42:07 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2863
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From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mushhead
quote:
We disagree here. I would tend to call that a gross oversimplification. Maybe I should ask you to define the term emergent and exactly what is (are) the distinguishing characteristic(s) that makes all emergents unbiblical?
I agree we may not be using the term consistently between us and hence we may actually agree more than we disagree.
The words,"Emergent" and "Emerging" share the same definition. The only difference between them is how they are used in a sentence.
To answer your question:
1-deny the necessity, or the reality, of doctrinal absolutes other than Jesus' teaching to love one another.
2-deny that faith in Jesus is necessary for salvation
3-deny that faith in Jesus is necessary to be a disciple of Jesus
4-deny that the Bible teaches doctrines that are absolute - true for all people, in all places and in every age
5-deny the existance of a literal hell
6-promote "convesational theology" - whereby people determine their own spiritual truths, lessons learned, and personal enlightenment and share them with others who can then decide for themselves what to embrace or reject.
7-believe that all religions are both good and bad
8-believe that all religions must dialogue (think conversationa theology) in order to discover from one another truths that should be adopted and to realize the bad that must be abandoned.
9-believe teaching that rejecting Jesus will lead to condemnation is arrogant exclusiveness, unloving, and un-Biblical
10-believe that conversion to Christianity is not necessary; IOW's a Buddhist or Muslim can become a follower of Christ and still remain a practicing adherant of Buddhism or Islam.
11-believe the Bible tells a story of:
- God's efforts to liberate creation from "sin" through teaching by example;
- man's continued rebellion;
- the consequences of each.
12-believe individuals and societies determine truth for themselves based on personal experience and social conditioning.
The list above - though not exhaustive - identifies the basic beliefs that emergents share. Based on my conversations with emergents, if I had to pick which beliefs they say are essential to participating in their community (I had a long conversation with a group of emergents about whether or not an evangelical could be considered emergent. The answer: No.), I would pick #'s 1,4,6,7,9,11,12.
I know that some people and churches call themselves emerging, but they are not, any more than I am not, as a resident of Salt Lake City, a mormon even if I call myself one. I do not believe what the mormons believe, and neither do doctrinally orthodox christrians believe what emergents/emerging believe. They might be doctrinally orthodox christians whose ministries are focused on people that see the world through postmodern eyes, but they are not emerging. And it is foolish for them to say they are.
Finally, probably the best known person using the "emerging" moniker is Mark Driscoll. Is he emerging? Not according to those in the emerging/emergent movement. Why? They say it is because he doesn't believe what they teach. They are right!
If you go by how Mark Driscoll for example uses the two words, they are most distinctly different. I also find your characterization of the movement exceedingly simplistic and a gross oversimplification. There is far more variety to the movement than what you ascribe to it. To illustrate - it could be said that there are two poles within the movement - that which orbits around what Mark Driscoll & other essentially evangelical emerging church leaders write and that which orbits around Brian McLaren and the Emergent Village. Between those two poles there is much variety - too much to be written off via an oversimplification of the issue.
Just taking your #1 as a case in point, many emergents do indeed hold to the idea of the existance of absolute truth. The problem that emergents see is that the rest of the world does not hold to that ideal, so we have to modify the way we talk about absolutes in order to speak in a manner that the rest of the world can get their head around.
Taking your #2, many emergents believe faith in Christ to be a prerequisite. Others fall closer to the position of C.S. Lewis implied in the last book in the Narnia chronicles as well as in Mere Christianity of the possibility of entering heaven via the implicit aknowledgment of God and a saving faith in him without the necessity of a specific knowledge that it was Christ that did the saving.
I think the way you have the word "emergent" defined, it is a de facto heretical movement but descriptive of only a very small subset of churches that might otherwise describe themselves as within the emerging orbit.
Now, folks on the Emergent Village side of things tend to object to the distinction being drawn between emerging and emergent. On the other hand, those on the emerging/Driscoll end of the spectrum tend to be very clear on their wishes to draw the distinction. That might be part of the reason that the baby is being thrown out with the bathwater when it comes to some of the good characteristics of the movement that I mentioned. Within the movement itself, there appears to be a broad disagreement on what is/is not "emerging".
As an example - wikipedia (not usually where I go for theological info!) interestingly enough has a reasonably concise description of some of the key common components of the movement. If you measured me along those characteristics listed, I would probably have to confess to being more emerging (drawing the distinction here between emerging and emergent) than not.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/12/2008 3:16:03 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
on the other quote: when "repentance" turns into another "sacrifice" that must be offered - and only seems to increase over the passage of time - the point of "repentance" has been missed by a mile.
And just what is your view of repentance? Is it not to acknowledge the depths of one's sin, accept Christ's forgiveness, and a walk away from the lifestyle that has entraped the individual? But from your posts you probably don't acknowledge the reality of sin.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/12/2008 3:30:24 PM
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mcleod
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Mushead to reply to what you have written. Let's take for instance. The gentleman who had at one time that large church in Colorado Springs. Which would talk a very conservative language both political and spiritual. Actual would have said at the time before his great disgrace. Was that Jesus Christ died for our sins. Yet in his mind he was doing the opposite to what the main line conservatives wanted to get rid of here in America. Namely the Gays and Lesbians.
What slap in God face was he to my Lord. Their are alot of others who in their daily walk and they seem to think they are all right to. But Jesus said that they (outcast) would know we are followers of him by our love. And Gentlemen and Ladies that is the bottom line.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/12/2008 3:34:15 PM
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mcleod
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Actual to get another point over is that during the mid to late sixties my Dad would witness to individuals using the Roman rules or four spiritual laws. Their were some who accepted that way. Yet when he incorperated more love and concern for the indiviual he witness greater results in reaching people for the kingdom.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/12/2008 3:41:42 PM
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mcleod
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quote:
Well, glad to see you waste no time with niceties, nor in actually interacting with anything I said--get straight to the judging and the insulting.
That must be the emergent SOP.
So, let's see...
You're the one whose posts said that someone else said something they didn't say. I corrected you. Now, we get you saying I'm wrong and someone who has "missed the boat", which are I think the nicer things you wrote about me.
Care to explain, because I for one don't take your word for what you're saying
Boy that's calling kettle black. Maybe you need to read your past posts then tell me who up and stated sarcastic remarks first. Though excuse me but as I know some of you are above reprouch. What is going to be your answer when the Lord Jesus comes and makes a comment about your life here on earth. Will you say you got it wrong, or will you say Son of David have mercy on me?
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/12/2008 4:15:58 PM
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Peter_Gunn
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
Peter-two questions:
1) Thoughts on my definition?
Well, I still am learning about the Emergent/Emerging Church...my question to you was an honest one. I appreciate your answer, too. I'll just give you my thoughts on each point...
As for my thought on your definition:
1) As someone pointed out, I believe it's each culture's responsibility to fit within the guidelines of the Bible...not the other way around.
2) This may be a "preference" issue. I would prefer to see less of the arts in a typical church service and more proclaiming of the Truth.
3) There seems to be a twisting of "contemplative" in churches today...it's looking more like a mystical meditation and borders on occultish.
4) I see a value in learning about other theologies...but only for the more mature believers that have developed a greater degree of discernment. But, this education is not to "glean" the "good stuff" out of these theologies, but to be able to recognize the false doctrines when we are confronted with them.
5) From the initial and cursory research I've done into the ECM, I'm seeing a lot of flux in the "non-negotiables", as I call them, such as Jesus being the only way, what constitutes sin, etc.
6) I believe there should be no personal interpretation of scripture. Application can and does vary, but not the meaning.
7) I believe wholly in the absolute Truth of the Bible. The stories, interaction and communal activity you refer to are all nice and very valuable. But (see #9)...there needs to be a balance. We have many examples in the Bible of Truth being dogmatically taught.
8) I don't see a problem with this...as long as it doesn't get too "common". I have a problem with calling God "the Dude upstairs". We still must have a definitive tone of respectfulness with God or anything that involves Him.
9) There is a place for that. However, we need to be able to sit and listen to someone proclaim the Truth of God. We have Biblical examples of that, in both the Old and New Testaments. But we also have examples of two-way communications between teachers and students. We need to have both to be well educated. And there is nothing at all wrong with being confrontational when it comes to sin...but I don't believe you'll hear much of that in an EC setting. They seem to preach a lot of "tolerance". I don't think God tolerates as much as we would like Him to!
10) I had to look up ecumenical to really get a good understanding of the word. (How embarrasing!) Mr. Webster referred me to "ecumenism" and here's how that definition reads: "the principles or practice of promoting cooperation or better understanding among differing religious faiths." That sounds nice and I've been to a couple of ecumenical services (for Thanksgiving). But, while we can "all get along" we still have to be on guard against that tolerance thing. We cannot compromise Truth for the sake of cooperation. There is no Biblical example of that...not that turned out well, anyway.
quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
2) Thoughts on my question regarding the subject of the thread - emerging or emergent? I think in retrospect I would draw a distinction there since I have different comfort levels on those two as well as different levels of education regarding significant theological tenets. I'd be much more willing to defend emerging than emergent.
BT
I think the words are interchangeable. Again, referring to Mr. Webster: "emerge - to come forth into view; become visible; become apparent or known; to develop or evolve as something new, improved, etc." and "emergent - emerging; arising unexpectedly or as a new or improved development."
I don't see that the gospel needs to evolve, be improved or further developed. However, I do think churches have found a new way to find fame and fortune in the ECM.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/12/2008 4:53:04 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2863
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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Peter-
It's kind of odd - I actually agree with your statements. Between you and me, at least, I think it would come down to a matter of emphasis.
[1) As someone pointed out, I believe it's each culture's responsibility to fit within the guidelines of the Bible...not the other way around.
- True, but how we communicate the unchanging truths of the bible within an ever-changing culture is the issue that's being addressed in the ECM. Our beliefs do not and should not change. The words and methods employed to express them however should change. Otherwise, we'd all still be speaking Koine greek in the church and noone would have the faintest clue what we're talking about.
2) This may be a "preference" issue. I would prefer to see less of the arts in a typical church service and more proclaiming of the Truth.
I'm not a huge fan of the arts either, but my wife is. It's good to account for all tastes and styles if we can.
3) There seems to be a twisting of "contemplative" in churches today...it's looking more like a mystical meditation and borders on occultish.
Sometimes, I agree. Not usually, though, in the mainstream of the movement
4) I see a value in learning about other theologies...but only for the more mature believers that have developed a greater degree of discernment. But, this education is not to "glean" the "good stuff" out of these theologies, but to be able to recognize the false doctrines when we are confronted with them.
I see value in both- clarifying what we believe as well as seeing what elements of Christian thought are present in other religions. I consider it just good Christian education to be aware of such things as it makes me a more effective witness.
5) From the initial and cursory research I've done into the ECM, I'm seeing a lot of flux in the "non-negotiables", as I call them, such as Jesus being the only way, what constitutes sin, etc.
I completely agree on that, which is actually part of my point here. It's difficult to paint all ECM churches with one broad brush stroke which I think some posters on the issue are trying to do.
6) I believe there should be no personal interpretation of scripture. Application can and does vary, but not the meaning.
I totally agree. Our personal interpretation, however, is nearly always biased by our own experience. Being able to be aware of one's own bias and attempt to account for it all the while embracing a certain humility with respect to that I think is necessary in a proper hermeneutic. Not that the meanings change, but rather my approach to the scriptures need to take into account that I'm a hopelessly biased interpreter and need to engage in some serious self examination along with my examination of scriptures to be able to determine if it's scripture or my own bias that's speaking.
7) I believe wholly in the absolute Truth of the Bible. The stories, interaction and communal activity you refer to are all nice and very valuable. But (see #9)...there needs to be a balance. We have many examples in the Bible of Truth being dogmatically taught.
Agreed. There is a balance that's necessary. In the emerging churches that I've belonged to, I've been happy with the balance. What most of the churches intend by this, however, is not that we should change our approach to Truth, but that we should change how we approach TEACHING about truth. The teaching of it, according to the emergents, in today's society is more effective by engaging in conversation rather than through a didactic monologue. In my own teaching, I've found this to be true. I might know the answer, but if through dialogue I can get you to come to the answer on your own, that's a powerful thing.
8) I don't see a problem with this...as long as it doesn't get too "common". I have a problem with calling God "the Dude upstairs". We still must have a definitive tone of respectfulness with God or anything that involves Him.
Agreed completely.
9) There is a place for that. However, we need to be able to sit and listen to someone proclaim the Truth of God. We have Biblical examples of that, in both the Old and New Testaments. But we also have examples of two-way communications between teachers and students. We need to have both to be well educated. And there is nothing at all wrong with being confrontational when it comes to sin...but I don't believe you'll hear much of that in an EC setting. They seem to preach a lot of "tolerance". I don't think God tolerates as much as we would like Him to!
True, but I sometimes think God tolerates more than his Church does. The EMC seems to be reacting to a common feature of some of the more fundy churches where we expect you to conform to a certain standard before you dare enter into community. Whereas I tend to believe that we come to Christ first and his community and THEN we allow Christ to do his transformative work in our lives.
10) I had to look up ecumenical to really get a good understanding of the word. (How embarrasing!) Mr. Webster referred me to "ecumenism" and here's how that definition reads: "the principles or practice of promoting cooperation or better understanding among differing religious faiths." That sounds nice and I've been to a couple of ecumenical services (for Thanksgiving). But, while we can "all get along" we still have to be on guard against that tolerance thing. We cannot compromise Truth for the sake of cooperation. There is no Biblical example of that...not that turned out well, anyway.
Generally I agree. I do think, though, that we would all be better off if we Christians cooperated with each other a bit more. I also think there actually are biblical references to being somewhat ecumenical, but that's a different thread all unto it's own and not wise to enter into here.
Thanks for a good and well-reasoned response!
BT
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“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/12/2008 4:59:44 PM
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mushhead
Posts: 531
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Kearns
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GroupW,
instead of replying to each of your points, I think I will just offer a comment statement and a challenge:
If this middle position between the two poles exists, I'd be interested to hear about some examples. Because in three years of full time research on the subject, I haven't seen it. Yes, some exist for as in any movement there will be variety, but the description I provided is representative of the basic beliefs of the EC.
Challenge: google emergent or emerging church and see which variety of the EC shows up the most. The answer you will find is why using the term is foolish. Someone hears Driscoll or others like him use the term. Then they visit the internet or the local book store and who are they most likely going to encounter? McLaren, Jones, and Pagitt. They will end up in a hornets nest (maybe it should be described as a butterfly garden) of false teachings designed to appeal to the flesh (natural self's world view). It sounds good; the personalities are likeable; they sound knowledgeable and sincere. The person who was introduced to the term in the context of "orthodox" doctrine end up hooked on a lie.
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MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/12/2008 5:02:55 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2863
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
I think the words are interchangeable. Again, referring to Mr. Webster: "emerge - to come forth into view; become visible; become apparent or known; to develop or evolve as something new, improved, etc." and "emergent - emerging; arising unexpectedly or as a new or improved development."
I don't see that the gospel needs to evolve, be improved or further developed. However, I do think churches have found a new way to find fame and fortune in the ECM.
Actually, I think that's part of the confusion. There seems to be a segment within the ECM that wants to make a distinction between the two and a segment that reacts furiously to that. There seems to be a developing distinction in how those two words are being used. Emerging appears to be increasingly associated with a more evangelical understanding of the theological issues while emergent seems to be correlated to the Brian McLaren end of the continuum. I think I should coin a new phrase - "evangelical-emergent" to more adequately describe the section of the movement that I'm familiar with.
I agree, the Gospel does not and should not need to change. How we say it, present it, and teach it though absolutely does. I mentioned earlier that Paul himself advocated a certain flexibility in being able to adapt to the culture we find ourselves in.
This seems to be a widely misunderstood point about the movement. Changing how we speak of, teach, and present doesn't mean that we've tried to change the underlying truth of it. (Granted, the fact that some are indeed seeking to change that underlying truth doesn't help ease the confusion.)
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/12/2008 5:06:00 PM
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mushhead
Posts: 531
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Kearns
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As you said previously, we probably agree on more than we disagree. However on this point I disagree. those who created and lead the movement get to define what it is.
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MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/12/2008 5:13:42 PM
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mushhead
Posts: 531
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Kearns
Status: offline
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quote:
I think I should coin a new phrase - "evangelical-emergent" to more adequately describe the section of the movement that I'm familiar with.
Group W,
the problem with this particular term is that emergents call themselves the "new evangelicals. They are not only attempting to redefine the Gospel, they are aggressively attempting to redefine how people define "evangelical."
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MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then tu | | |
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